I think Dhalsim in SF4 is an abortion of his former self, so a lot of moves IMO. But what’s done is done…
Remove Yun’s DP. 
I know it’ll never happen but honestly if you removed his upkicks and just left every single other bit of him the same the character would have a viable weakness in a weak wakeup and anti air game while maintaining an incredibly strong rushdown and combo game.
That’s ridiculous, his anti-air game is excellent. It’s not the anti-airs that make him so free to yun. It’s the fact that just like with EVERY character against yun, different timing/version of divekicks result in whiffed anti-airs/DPs etc. However, once he gets in, guys with mashable DPs can at least get him out or get out with an fadc invincisomething. Dhalsim has nothing to get Yun out, the only way dhalsim gets out of yuns pressure is if the yun is not that highly skilled and doesn’t know how to keep him in his face the whole time. Watch Daigo’s Yun vs Filipino’s Dhalsim. It’s a nice combovideo.
i like how every 3s characters in sf4 have shitty reversals except the twins
His grounded AAs are manipulated easily actually, and his air to airs push him to the corner and are not very rewarding for the most part. Most characters can get around all of Sims AAs. I beat Fchamp in Super with Dan because he didnt know how to AA Dan’s knee, then when he did I just switched to j.lk or j.hk. And thats freaking Dan switching his trajectory and hitbox. If Sim can’t AA that, then hes got no hope on Yun’s divekicks. So why do we nerf Yun’s? Sure thatll help Sim, and make Yun worse. How bout instead fixing Sim’s AAs so he can consistantly Anti Air?
Nerfing characters doesnt make a game more interesting. It makes it more generic, and thus more boring. Give characters tools to compete, rather than simply nerfing whats good. If all the characters are really good, then its a lot more fun if all the characters really suck.
I actually kind of agree with this in a different sense. Just make Yuns upkicks have no invincibility except for EX. Every character deserves a good reversal outside of an Ultra.
Yun wakeup isn’t even that good.
Neither is Vegas, Rose’s, Dhalsims, Juri’s, Abel’s, Dudley’s, Sakura’s etc…thing is Yun’s is better than theirs and all those characters dont dominate like Yun.
That is true. Upkicks aren’t great. But it is just a sort of “lets slap another super power onto Superman” kind of thing. They aren’t great, but a lot of characters don’t even have something as good as them while also have as many OTHER tools(Iceman certainly has better cold powers than Superman’s Icebreath, but you don’t see Iceman getting Super Strength and Laser Vision too.). Yun is one of the only characters with a nearly complete toolbox that while not every ability or option he has is THE BEST version of that option, he has access to a “good enough” version while many characters don’t even get that. His reversal/DP is significantly better than Abel’s or Rose or Makoto(whose only reversals require EX and STILL can get counter hit by some meaty attacks before becoming active.)
just take his bullshit away and he will be fine.
active frames to match the animation on palm, you can get hit with an invisible wall while his hands are being moved back.
a reduction in meter build on whiffed palms.
up kicks have more recovery on whiff to be punished better
shoulders to have a hitbox only on the attacking side and not both sides.
-2 or -1 on ex lunge punch on block
command grab frame data to be the same as yangs
Upping the recovery on his whiffed upkicks wont do jack unless the range is also shortened since HK up kicks goes full screen on whiff. Unless you plan on MAJORLY nerfing the recovery on whiffed upkicks which would be a bad thing.
Nerf distance flown, nerf startup invincibility, nerf damage whatever but nerfing the recovery is silly its recovery is about the same as Ken’s DP but with 2-3x as much startup time (5F for LK 8F for HK) Its invincibility is significantly better than almost any DP though (first 7 frames). The move is pretty punishable since it can’t be FADC’d unlike an SRK and it whiffs crouchers (unlike an SRK), its range and invincibility are more of an issue than its recovery.
yea distance flown is what i meant, thanks for catching that.
I’ve said it before, we all know Yun is bullshit in his current state. The question is, how much of that bullshit can we safely trim away without making him yet another boring ass character to play? In my opinion, his offense doesn’t need to be toned down at all. What needs to be changed about him is the fact that he’s so damn SAFE on offense. Give characters a chance to blow him up if he just mindlessly tosses shit out. High risk, high reward, not low risk, high reward.
Same goes for Fei as well, though balancing Fei is a bit harder because if you start slapping negative frames on some of his stuff he won’t have a reliable way to open you up unlike Yun. Perhaps reducing the amount of corner-carry Fei gets on rekkas would be a good place to start. Fei can start a combo in HIS corner and get you like over halfway to the OTHER damn corner in one combo.
Just some thought from me at about 4am.
make goukens gohadoukens 50% faster
make him 1100 hp
make his ex running palm make the oppoment fly straight up so i can do more cool juggle stuff
make him 1050 stun
make backthrow do 140 damage instead of 1 and remove the scaling
increase his walking speed
make his ultra 2 instantly fully charged
make his tatsu hit crouching and reduce the recovery by 150%
make his ex fireballs hit twice instantly and if he charges it they hit 4 times
make all of his counters act like the ex counter
increase the range of his normals
make his overhead faster
this will fix gouken
u can thank me later capcom
and make his ultra 1 cause new borns to fall out of c.viper if she is hit with the animation version.
this is good idea
Completely disagree.
I need to play devil’s advocate here because nobody else will, i think Yun is very strong, in the top tier for high end tourney play, but i also think most of the specific complaints made against him are bollocks. I’ve mained a few aggressive characters since vanilla, and what i notice while playing Yun in AE is that his offense actually seems considerably less safe than many rush down characters. Now when i say ‘offense’, i don’t mean ‘lol full screen lunge’, he has some solid ways of getting in, i’m talking about his options up close and specifically his okizeme.
Thing is most characters that will pressure up close on a knockdown have at least one if not multiple mixable options that will slap down reversals, making wakeup DPs a quite terrible option, usually they revolve around ambiguous crossups that go behind the DP, or moves with odd angles of attack that avoid the invuln frames and beat them out. So when chars like Akuma, Viper, Fei, Ken, Rufus etc. land a knockdown, there’s rarely any situation where they have to be concerned about pressuring, because if they think an uppercut is coming, they just stuff it… That doesn’t apply to Yun. As he has no regular crossup, you need to use LK divekick to hit behind, but if you want this to be safe on block, it needs to be done as a deep meaty so that you crossup low to the ground, which is how you always see the Japs doing it. If you use the LK divekick as a meaty crossup, every reversal in the game will auto correct on you every time, because you switch sides at the last moment and are in a position where they’ll all hit you.
While it’s possible to hit a DP with a crossup divekick, you need to do it with a high late dive that doesn’t connect meaty, and if you try this against someone who blocks then your divekick is actually unsafe, and you eat a combo. Even if it happens to connect on a crouching or small char and you land quickly enough to not be punished, you’re still on negative frames, so you’re essentially gambling divekicking a DP for 60 damage, against being punished by a combo, or if you’re lucky only being on negative frames and just getting away with losing your momentum. It’s a crap option.
So once the divekick is out of the way, everything else Yun can do on a normal knockdown also loses to a DP. On UTK’s he has 2 common safe jump setups which require some tight timing, 1 from a forward throw and the other from sweep after gineijin. The safe setup after gineijin that Daigo uses is a good setup, as it lands deep with your opponent in the corner, but the setup on the forward throw is simply bad. It’s telegraphed, and involves a neutral jump from a few steps away so that after you block the telegraphed setup, Yun is left out of range for any of his mixup options, and too far away to OS dash punish. You can just backdash this setup, and you can see it coming a mile away due to the 2 dash s.lp n.jump giving it away. You’ll notice the pros have moved away from using this.
So essentially, the only good, safe offensive pressure Yun has is after ending a Gineijin with a sweep. On all his other knockdowns, which are typically after upkicks when he connects a combo, he has no safe option that challenges a reversal, so if he’s worried about a reversal, he has to simply not attack and try to bait it. Which of course gives up momentum if a DP doesn’t come out. Now before you say ‘oh heaven forbid you would have to read your opponent on offense’… this doesn’t apply to most of the aggressive characters. If you’re worried about a DP and you’re playing Viper, you just stuff it with a crossup BK, if you’re playing Fei, then you do the crossup version of your normal ambiguous jump, if you’re Ken then you use a crossup tatsu or regular crossup, if you’re playing Akuma then you have 5+ different options hitting on either side that will beat out reversals of various kinds and you can mix between them. You never have to stop attacking because you’re worried about the reversal, Yun does.
In this sense, Yun offense IS high risk, high reward. He has a wide variety of ways to beat defensive play, including the meaty crossup, command grab, OS backdash punishes for some of the cast, meaty armour breaker… and they ALL lose to a reversal, and the command grab is also massively punishable if you BD or n.jump. So while most of the rushdown characters still have to try and read the opponent, because they don’t want them to get out of the setup, the risk they are taking is a 50/50 in their favour, they either deal damage and possibly knockdown again, or the opponent gets out and resets spacing. Yun against someone with an FADC into ultra is putting half his health on the line whenever he tries any aggressive move after knockdown. You’ll notice that more recent tier lists tend to mark his bad matchups as Sagat, Ryu and Fei, and you can likely guess why this is.
Now that’s probably not much comfort for Dhalsim, but Dhalsim is the kind of oddball character design that is likely to have unfair matchups for or against him purely due to mechanics. I’m sure Gief players don’t have much sympathy for him.
Reducing the knockback on rekkas would be an indirect buff as now he can apply wakeup pressure after rekkas compared before where the situation was reset.
Doublepost…
Just want to clarify that the above isn’t a call for Yun buffs, i’m not being silly there, his offense is risky and i think it’s just fine like that. I believe he’s top tier because of the damage he can potentially get out of a few situations, like anti air into Gineijin, or the command grab into ultra setups, but i also don’t think that there is any horrendous gap between him and the rest of the cast. There’s some turds in there, but what do you expect with such a large lineup. I just want to make it clear that i think the generic internet complaint that “everything he does is safe!” is bollocks, that’s both wrong, and nothing to do with why he’s strong.
i just want the stupid “wtf r u srs?” shit that he can do tweaked.
i want his ex lunge punch to be negative on block, who made it +1 for yun on block? he needs to be fired.
his whiffed palms to have less meter gain, that shit gets you bars real fast
the active frames to match up with the animation on the palm, its pretty stupid to be able to get hit by an invisible wall where his hands used to be.
the shoulder attacks to have hitboxes only on the front attacking side and not all around yun.
his command grab to be the same as yangs-don’t know why yuns is way better
up kicks to have less distance travelled so that it can be punished harder by most of the cast.
that, and it would be one step closer to making him an clone of yang. i’m not saying yun don’t need any tweaks, but i don’t think his divekick is one of the things that need nerfing. some of the cast ( honestly most ) need major buffing while yun only need like 2 slight nerfs. hell, most of the cast move sets don’'t even work as it was intended to be. the problem honestly doesn’t lie within yun ( or top 3 ), it lies within the other cast members that aren’t complete.