- No, he would win any footsie battle against rushdown characters with ease.
- Dunno, might have to nerf his C. grab range to compensize
- Dunno, improved hitbox is unnecesary he already has a good hitbox on it.
- No, characters without a srk have a hard time hitting him out of it and making it safer might mean that some characters wont be able to punish it.
- Yes, but only in the corner like it should have done in the first place
- How?
shrug. It seems like the capcom approach to balancing is take tier list. Nerf top 7 or so guys[Previously Cammy/Guile tier] do pretty much nothing to the next tier [previously viper/rufus tier] and then increasing levels of buffs all the way down to the last guy.
And then add Ninja Jesus.
This is going to be asshole to the extreme but learn to tech. Losing a teching game is the result of bad teching skills not the lack of wake up options.
I disagree with some of your character mentions (like Vega), but in any case I think buffs should be retained from AE for underpowered characters in most cases. My point was that restoring to Super would actually not fix balance issues - many would still exist. It might be a step in the right direction for many characters that were nerfed, however. Lots of people just want their old characters back along with the ability to compete evenly with the twins. I don’t think that’s enough. There would still be large remaining balance issues, some even caused by a character’s return to their Super version. (Seth getting his j.hp back would be one of these.) I hope Capcom addresses all of these issues. All of the real characters in the game should be tournament viable.
Lol Fei isn’t top tier in AE because his bad matchups got worse. Fei was top tier in Super! I already had him in top tier in like, Fall 2010, and lots of good players agreed. Then Fei was BUFFED (st lp links to sweep, ex rekka safer and beats fireballs better!) and his bad matchup characters were nerfed. This has resulted in Fei being even more top tier than he was before, by himself in S tier (imo Super had no S tier and 6-10 characters tied in A tier). He’s the best character at mid range by a significant margin, one of the best defensive characters, and one of the best characters up close. At almost no point on screen is he not in or not close to being in control, something not even Vanilla Sagat could say (Sagat was not good up close and lost some matchups). That’s not reasonable! He is going to HAVE to be nerfed.
As for the buffs vs nerfs debate, in general I’m in favor of buffs too. But look at it this way. Fei, Yun, and Yang make 2/3 of the cast irrelevant, so from Capcom’s perspective, you can either give slight nerfs to 3 characters or such significant buffs to most of the cast that you risk unintended consequences. I think the Dhalsim point is a great one. If you don’t nerf Yun, how in the world can you make Dhalsim competitive in tournament play without making him way too strong against other characters? If you make a Dhalsim that can keep out AE Yun, you’ve made a Dhalsim that wins 8-2 over 1/3 of the cast. And that’s not reasonable either. I want only slight nerfs to Team Hong Kong and buffs to about half the cast, not big nerfs to anyone.
I don’t think Makoto needs nerfs. I’m not even convinced she’s among the top 10 characters in AE, let alone top tier or nerf-worthy. Again, Seth doesn’t need buffs.
Realistically, Capcom never goes an iteration of any game without tweaking at least one thing for every character. But I hope they don’t nerf anyone except Fei, Yun, and Yang, leave the next 15-20 characters in the tiers almost completely alone, and give only slight buffs to everyone below that. Honestly, just nerf Team Hong Kong and buff Guile/Blanka/Fuerte, and we’re not that far away from a very well balanced game.
i respect your opinion UD, but he controlled just as much horizontal space in vanilla where he was solid mid tier. IMO, the damage nerfs to everyone over the course of 2 games is whats keeping him in the top spot, and making him seem so dominating
Hey damage nerfs from Vanilla to Super and Super to AE are for sure a part of this! But… so are all the buffs he got over that time too, and so are the additions of characters that his kind of master-of-all-trades style does super well against. If you recall, before AE was released someone did an interview with Mago about what changes he wanted to see for Fei. His answer? Nerf crouching fierce, nerf hk chicken wing. And then ex rekka and st jab got better.
Again, I’m not looking for big nerfs. Like I said, I’d get rid of ex chicken wing’s hit/throw invincibility so he’s a little worse on both defense and offense, make ex rekka 2nd hit no longer -1 on block (maybe like, -3 so he effectively can’t get punished from max range, but no longer controls the post-rekka situation), and make crouching fierce a little slower. His up close game is intact, he’s very slightly worse mid range, and his defense is slightly worse. Along with buffs to other characters, I think that would keep him a top/high tier but make him a little more reasonable in tournament play.
Ppl who got buffed that needed it from Super to AE can stay, but all the nerfs need to be fixed like Roses invincibility on U2 startup, cr. roundhouse hit stun nerf on Chun and her df short kick back to Super, make Sim viable against the twins etc. dont touch Makoto, and Poongko showed that Seth is dangerous without jump fierce stretchy arms. Some are fine in AE and others where fine in Super…mess the 2 together. Hakan needs a body slash of some sort like gief for Cross ups.
I think you’re right that Hawk needs a few things. This is especially true if his bad matchup characters get buffed back to their Super incarnations, since Hawk moving up was mostly about addition by opposing character subtraction. But imo you’re a little misguided in your buffs. The problem with st hk isn’t its downward hitbox; he has good things like fierce and medium kick and short for that. And the problem with dive isn’t that he doesn’t bounce back far enough, it’s either that he waits in the air too long… or doesn’t land close enough. I don’t want to make that move safe on block, but I DO want Hawk to have more advantage if he hits, and that requires him to either have more frame advantage after or to land closer.
Basically what I want for Hawk are two main points:
–Normals are no longer focus/jump bait: doing st hk is much, much worse than throwing a fireball in terms of susceptibility to punishes from focuses and jumps. Also it’s a free punish for Fei rekka. Kinda sucks for a footsie-heavy character to have such risky footsie normals, don’t you think? I’d shave off a few frames of recovery from far st hk, far st hp, cr mk, and sweep. Also, sweep should still have a hole in the middle of it, but it doesn’t need to be 9 frames long heh.
–Regular and ex dives both pop the opponent higher on hit so that Hawk has more time to move in after a hit (but not enough to juggle spire or dragon punch). Both just as punishable as before on block.
–Ultra 2 input is qcb, qcb instead of hcb, hcb. The hcb motion in this game is too close to the spd motion (which is… hcb + 2 degrees in any other direction) for that input to be reasonable imo.
And that’s all. Tiny normal buffs to make them a little less risky. Dives just as punishable on block but a little stronger on hit. Ultra motion that doesn’t get confused with command grab half the time. I don’t think condor spire needs any buffs, I think it’s fine. All spire versions can be made safe with proper spacing. If I were to do anything to his dragon punch, it would be to give it more horizontal range, but I’m just not convinced he needs that either. I’m fine with ex dp being invincible on startup and hp dp being invincible after a few frames as an antiair.
Again, I don’t want major buffs for almost anyone. Slight tweaks in frame advantage and damage can add up to significant changes in matchups and tiers.
Skill and teching are two words that should never be used in the same sentence in regard to SF4. Ever.
To be honest I don’t miss the old U2. It was a crutch for Rose players and a retarded one at that. If you really want Rose to be relevant she needs other changes to make her a more solid character. Not a get out of jail free card.
Why not? Because against good competition it actually takes a lot of effort to properly tech throws in the middle of frame traps, reversal traps, and all sorts of other things designed to punish tech mashing.
I didn’t read the whole thread, but here are my requests for Oni Buffs:
- FADC Uppercut on block <–the biggest thing imo
- a fullscreen feirce fireball that doesn’t need to be charged
- ultra 1 and 2 comboable off normal cross-up slash
I think it’s sad that Shin Akuma(call him Oni or whatever you like)is mid-tier at best
thanks for the thread
The reason stupid horseshit like that exists in this game is because teching in SF4 is a mixture of option selects and guessing. The window is too small in SF4 to allow for reaction-based throw teching.
Welcome to nearly every competitive 2D fighting game. Throw teching in SF4 is actually a lot easier than most games. Hell in SF2 throw teching only reduced the effect of a throw, you still got thrown.
I don’t think it’s possible to have Yun be a good character, while at the same time, allow Sim to fight him well, and not roll over the rest of the cast.
Speaking of Sim, it’s been said by many great players over time, that games in which Dhalsim is very strong, tend to be pretty shitty games. I don’t know that I agree with that, but I feel like with the addition of the twins, making Sim viable at this point, would be to SF4’s detriment. That’s my personal opinion, and understand that there is an equally biased, equally viable argument of “I like Sim more; fuck Yun”.
I don’t need to have Sim beat Yun or even fight him equally. A 4-6 match is fine. But it can’t be the stupid 2-8 nonsense it is right now. A match so bad that Filipino Champ switches away from Sim? He didn’t switch away from Sim for Super Rufus, Abel, Viper, whatever, but he had to switch for AE Yun. Sim doesn’t need huge buffs to get back to being a good competitive character, but he is one of the many many characters in this game that needs nerfs to Team Hong Kong.
They’re polarized fighting styles, yes, but I still think it’s possible to tweak just a few aspects of the fight. For instance, giving cr.mp a better hitbox against divekicks, or making EX Yoga Flame faster so it can be used reactionary against divekicks.
I would agree the Yun-Sim Match up is stupid right now. Yun’s dive kicks beat out most of Sim’s normals and Sim’s only counters to the dive kicks leaves him seriously vulnerable. Sim traditionally has had trouble dealing with fast dive kicks, but Yun’s other options make it hard for Sim to use his usual counters like j.MP.
Juri:
[LIST]
[]Needs reliable wake-up options. She probably has the worst wake-up in the game.
[]Perhaps put her life at 1000? I do not really see a reason why she has a HP handicap.
[]Compared to the twins, her Ultra 1 is pretty bad. Perhaps buff the duration of FSE? Or give her a walk/jump speed upgrade while FSE is active?
[]Maybe give some pokes a little more priority so she can actually compete against Chun-Li.
[/LIST]
Besides the above, i am pretty happy with her. She has pretty good normals, and anti-airs.
Oh I think we can almost expect nerfs to team hong kong, I don’t think there is any way they are going to escape the nerbat. What I would be more concerned about is just about anything else Capcom may or may not decide to do. They have a bad habit of making changes that don’t make much sense, or change for the sake of change as other people have said.