Well considering the game will be getting a release on Xbox live arcade I figured it was about time we got some serious discussion going. Unfortunately I’m not really to familar with the game so i’ll be limited in my contributions, however to the rest of you if you guys have any strats,combos,match ups,tiers, match videos, character primers or whatever for SS2 plz post it here. Alright lets get this thread going.
Was Ukyo THAT broken or did people just over-exaggerate? The game actually seems pretty balanced aside otherwise.
Actually if I’m not mistaken the game is easily one of the most balanced tittles of all time. The brackets between characters are marginal that it doesn’t even feel like there are tiers in the game…at least thats what I heard.
I’ve heard similar with the exception of ukyo who stands atop everyone
Perhaps the question is how big are the gaps in the tiers? =o
Ukyo is good because he can punish a lot of stuff that really shouldn’t be punishable, and he has the best fb in the game. The only thing he really lacks is the high damage some of the other characters can dish out, but again, the fact that he can punish you just for poking at him more than makes up for that. He probably has the fastest low AB punisher in the game. He can also runaway, rushdown or play high/low mixup games.
IMO charlotte and jubei can fight him, but they still lose for the most part. Charlotte has long reaching fast normals and a really good j.AB. Jubei has the second best fb in the game, and the best jump in with j.A or j.B. I think Haohmaru does ok too since if you mess up, you’re practically dead if he hits you.
Tier list would probably be something like:
genjuro* (I think he’s a very high risk character and could be either high or mid)
Outside of ukyo and charlotte, i think the tiers are a little closer than they seem just because the game is full of gimmicky strategies. Everyone has sort of a fair chance at winning if you can get their gimmicks to work in disadvantaged matchups.
Caliagent raped me with nak .
Anyway i think there are loads of fun shit in this game. Roll cancels, crossover command grabs, spd cancels etc.
I don’t play Ukyo much, but I’ve heard Nako is pretty good against him, because a lot of his strats fall flat against her. As for damage his Rage gives him the most increase of all characters, and lasts a fair amount of time too. He takes a while to get angry though…
But yea, it seems fair to me, according even to this tier list on a Nakoruru technique site http://www2q.biglobe.ne.jp/~tuc/samusupi/dg.htm games turn out to be fairly even when you look at the individual results!
>> http://poormanweb.ddo.jp/~shinsamurai/SinSamurai_Main.htm TONS of info at this site, a lot of it very in-depth.
My question: I remember reading Sieger had some sort of very good strat which involved guarenteed Vulcan shot on an opponent who was just recovering. I really don’t remember the details but it’d seem weird to rank him next to Nako if that were the case.
Hmmm, so outside of a few advantages from the top tiers the game is basically even. Although there are definitive tiers, the gap isn’t significant enough that it completly disolves the viability of the the lower/mid characters. Would it be fair to assume this game is more balanced then SF2T?
I agree with Caliagent all the way…Charlotte can fight him but she loses…I know this as a Charlotte, Ukyo, and Haohmarue tournament player myself.
Nak has been low tier in pretty much every game shes been in besides CVS1 lol.
Also this will be hitting with the SS Collection (import) soon so I’m glad to see this thread. Nicotine has a infinite but I believe it can be mashed out of…
Ukyo is just very safe hence he’s God Tier…Charlotte is pretty much the same as SS1…but Ukyo is just that much better in this game…the ultimate low risk high reward character…
It’s with his chain grab move and won’t work unless the person you’re playing against has no idea what their doing. The move is pretty much worthless.
Yeah high/mid/low tier fights can go either way because of the high damage output and depending on the match up. As far as balance goes, i dunno if i’d say it’s more balanced than ST. Ukyo kinda skews it a bit because he can punish so many things that he shouldn’t be able to.
FYI to everyone SS2 has been on the ggpo test server for some time now
Really? Cos I can’t even begin to play her in 1. She just can’t pressure quite as well in that game, whereas in two she can be pretty offensive if you want to go for the attack.
Where is SS2 on GGPO? I don’t see a room for it on the client.
It’s on the test server. Go to #ggpo on IRC on the efnet server
So bascially Ukyo is like the CVS2 Sagat of the game…there always has to be that one character that completly ruins the game doesn’t there lol.
Ukyo was fun to use with the backstep cancelling fireballs and 50% dizzy combos. GenAn and Nicotine have infinites too. Chain Grab, Standing AB, Repeat. Haohmaru has this one combo too where the standing AB cancels into his Tempa Fuuzin Zan secret move.
http://heavenlyspirits.net/forum/showthread.php?t=132 it has some decent info, kind of covers the whole tier debate somewhat.
This was my original tier listing:
Mid: everyone else
Bottom: Nic and Nak
I think if I had to really break it down, I’d put it as:
A: Charlotte, Hanzo, Galford, Genjuro
B: Jubei, Haohmaru, Earthquake, Kyoshiro
C: Gen-An, Cham Cham, Wan Fu, Seiger
D: Nicotine, Nakoruru
Ukyo is unquestionably the best character in the game. No one matches his ground game and range. cr.B xx After Image Slice punishes 90% of all on the ground. And if a character has trouble dealing with Swallow Swipes, it’s free annoyance to your hapless opponent (Charlotte comes to mind immediately). Not to mention Ukyo rages easiest, stays raged longest, and has a great anti-air in standing AB (if they can even get around smartly thrown, varying Swallow Swipes in the first place).
Charlotte fights very well against everyone in the cast except Ukyo, which I think she dies horribly in, her absolute worst match. Ukyo’s jumping AB beats Charlotte’s standing AB, standing C, and Power Gradation uppercut cleanly for huge damage, and her anti-air game is where she shines. Ukyo outpokes her on the ground with cr.B (and missed anything with Charlotte = cr.B xx After Image). Then he can spend the whole round making her chase him from across the screen because it’s difficult for her to get around varying Swallow Swipes. Against everyone else though, her normals (slashes and kicks, people usually whore her AB slashes and neglect the other buttons) are very high priority and she’s 2nd best at annoying the enemy to death by poke.
The ninjas, Galford and Hanzo, have the best 50/50 in the game that sets itself up again if successful. All it takes is one knockdown from a throw, a trip, SPD, and the nightmare will start for your opponent. Meaty SPD or meaty standing AB xx whatever’s safe. If they don’t jump and you SPD, they get grabbed. If they try to jump out and you standing AB, they get slashed and are likely dizzied. If they guess right, you can always cancel out into something else. They have better than average air-to-air priority with their jump kicks and jumping AB. On the ground they’re not so hot with their normals. But that near safe 50/50 guessing game is what makes the Ninjas better than the rest (who might also have 50/50s, but are not safe).
With Genjuro, everyone fears his AB slashes and his dizzy potential. All he has to do is fish around with cr.C and then link into his AB slash for an almost guaranteed dizzy. Repeat the combo, and the round is his. His Rekkas are not safe, but don’t leave him as open as you would think. It’s rather random. The Rekka Slashes are 50/50s in themselves because you can decide whether to make them block correctly or block backwards if you decide to do the crossup version. Plus even if they block correctly, you can spazz out on the remaining 2 and confuse them and you as to how to block. Genjuro’s probably the best at fast kills and he does huge damage relative to the rest of the cast. Charlotte can make him eat 3-4 AB slashes, Genjuro gets raged, one cr.C --> standing AB slash, and ggpo Charlotte.
Jubei can play a very easy game of just throwing his ground fireball and reacting to what they do because his fireball is one of the best in the game. If they jump in, counter with jumping B, it beats 90% of air-to-air moves and as a jumpin, it cleanly kills anti-airs. I do think Charlotte kills him really badly though because her standing AB anti-air will cleanly beat his jumping B, her jump kicks will beat it in the air, and she outpokes him on the ground. Vs. everyone else though, Jubei has solid normals and a very safe, but boring strategy of reacting to his fast ground fireballs.
Haoh is like Genjuro lite, because everyone fears his AB slash too, which dizzies very quickly. He doesn’t have as much mobility as Genjuro on the ground, lacking Rekkas. He does have that jumping overhead looking slash special move that is safe when blocked (the A version at least). And that secret Shoryureppa uppercut special that chips like 10% life, instant win if you knock them down and they are forced to block it. Haoh basically can counter almost any whiff or mistake with AB, get the dizzy, and end the round. But Genjuro lands his AB far easier and that’s why Haoh’s lower. Still solid.
Earthquake can effectively control more than half the screen with his gigantic chain and sickle. Jump straight up AB will stop anyone trying to jump in, and his AB chains from a safe distance punish mistakes easily for big damage. His butt bounce and body splashes have a Jupiter sized hitbox on it, and is very hard to counter. To win vs. him, your opponent has to guess correctly when to jump in because Earthquake doesn’t handle close up that well. But if he’s at a distance, he can make it hell for his opponent to try to get in.
Kyoshiro. Reach + damage = Kyoshiro’s strategy. He has good chip on his Pogo Flame stick move. And his AB slashes are on the same level as Genjuro’s as far as damage and dizzy potential. It’s just his are a lot slower and he’s slow in general. Dangerous overall due to those AB slashes of his, but not as scary as Genjuro.
Gen-An… Poison Puff x infinity. Every fight a guy named Vietcong? That’s his favorite strategy and it’s annoying as hell. A lot of characters have trouble getting around smartly blown Poison Puffs, but the problem is that while the strategy is very annoying, it’s not very rewarding damage wise. People with good reach can murder this strategy and Gen-An in general. Charlotte does very well vs. him. Sense a puff coming, cr.AB to either trade WAY in her favor or even hit it clean if you were fast enough. Good midtier character.
Cham Cham could be lower, but her mixup does well vs. Ukyo and she fights him better than most of the cast. Her game is centered around her 50/50 mixup using her Jumping Scratch. It’s ambiguous which side she’ll hit on, and safer on block (at least the C version) than most people suspect. Her cr.CD slide is safe on block and covers huge ground range, setting up her 50/50 Jumping Scratch crossup all over again. And even if the Jumping Scratch is blocked, she can usually salvage it by getting a throw in afterwards.
WanFu has: jumping pillar chip and crossup mixup, a good uppercut vs. jumpers, very high damage potential when raged, and a ghetto mixup in run-up uppercut or run-up cr.AB sweep which leads to the projectile crossup mixup (Haoh has the same one too I forgot). You can still salvage correctly blocked mixups and get your weapon back through butt bounces, which though not as good as Earthquake’s planetary hitbox ones, it’s still very high priority. It just if he loses his weapon and they keep you away from it, it’s hard to come back.
Sieger gets very good chip damage in his Vulcan Cannon, and a good hit confirm into his Back Breaker combo. His jumping C is pretty to get him in, but if they figure out how to keep him away and anti-air him cleanly, he’s in trouble. His Flaming Body Splash crosses up, but it’s way too slow and very easily punishable to do any kind of 50/50.
Nicotine’s strategy is throw a projectile, and anti-air. His normals have decent reach, but some other beat it, and the priority isn’t spectacular either (cr.AB is a good anti-air though at most angles). If you get Confusion to work, it can be fun on your opponent. His Chain move is rather worthless. Even if it hits, he recovers very slowly so that all opponents can mash out of the dizzy and nail him before he gets to AB slash into his “infinite.” The infinite is Chain, far standing AB xx Chain, repeat, but again the standing AB comes out very slow and Nicotine himself recovers slowly from the Chain (hit or blocked), so in reality the infinite never works (same with Gen-An too).
Nakoruru’s major flaws are she lacks range, lacks priority, lacks high damage options, and almost all of her moves leave her very unsafe. She has to somehow force her opponent to jump at her so she can pick the correct anti-air to nail them (most of the time it’s a jumping AB slash, though it could be cr.AB, cr.CD, or airthrow; you just have to know which one to use to not get beat out cleanly). She is very speedy on the ground (like Cham Cham and the Ninjas), and can get away with a lot of runup throws, more than she should.
That’s my tier analysis of this game. My main is Charlotte, but I can play Cham. No one is ever on ggpo when I check though, and that’s if I’m lucky enough to get to log in without crashing in the first place.
Excellent post Strike, if I had a prem account I’d rep u. So now that the tier thing is resolved I am sensing the tiering in this game to be a bit like CVS2 then. It appears that only S/A class are really viable from ur analysis…I wonder why peeps were going on about the balance in this game then?
I dont think they are so far. And games being super balanced are usually boring.
I disagree with Cham Cham being so low in both lists. Incredibly annoying ambiguous scratch (difficult to punish sometimes even if it misses because she’s on a lay down state) which can anti-air too, super safe slide, boomerang goes through projectiles, that rising fireball thinghie that can be done on wakeup for lots of chip damage, etc.
I love this game. I got into it not too long ago, and so far I’m really digging Jubei. Also, that site Carmen posted is all kinds of awesome, but sadly I can’t understand most of it because it’s all in Japanese.