Reading the entry in the other thread, it’s because of attack speed (some characters can actually run up and punch a normal hammer user), the golden hammer’s floating ability (normal hammer can’t do that), the above and back ranges that the golden hammer covers, and the abilty for the hammer head to fall off on the normal hammer.
but with that being said, the golden hammer has about a 3 second startup before it can even be picked up. it is susceptible to the same offenses outside of grounded offenses where clashing with the hammer is a bad idea. it also has the chance of being the squeaky hammer, which is just as frequent as the head of the black hammer falling off. and the swing of the gold hammer seems to be identical to the black hammer in all my tests…
all it is is a higher powered offensive hammer, but it doesn’t make it bannable.
edit: and from what i remember, only a few characters can hit edge grabbing opponents with either hammer. but if that’s a big issue for you, keep in mind that if you ledge grab and ledge attack at a hammer user trying to use this, your invincibility will go right through the hammer, so not being able to ledge stall and hammer user should be moot. the hammer user has to play a very specific range to hurt someone ledge attacking, and that range is past the range of your ledge attack. which means if they are looking to punish you for ledge attacking, they arne’t trying to hit you on the ledge.
This works on the assumption that the best method of attack is to not get hit…while in reality, the best course of action is to not get hit AND hit your opponent. If an assist trophy is out, the best course of action would be to dodge not get hit AND hit your opponent.
Granted, it’s easier and safer to dodge assist trophies by running to the edge…but all that means is that when a trophy is broken, a crappy player will run away and a good one will dodge everything and slap around the other guy.
I really doubt anyone would risk it in a tournament setting unless it was down to the last 20-30 seconds of the game. Dodging ATs and dodging your opponent’s attacks would probably be a full time job in itself. No opponent will just let the AT do the job for them. I am not saying its impossible, but practically, probably not very viable.
But anyways, I don’t see anything wrong with getting that advantage. I got the AT, now you have to dodge it. Its pretty simple. Whether you like playing that way or not is just preference. If you decide to play in Evo, then you have to conform to that preference or don’t play. Heck, I hate items, and I am still gonna play this way.
It’s not like the assist trophies do anything unpredictable, original, or even difficult to avoid (in most cases). I don’t see why you’d immediately run to the edge outside of just that; stalling. I’d take my chances staying on the field while most assist trophies are in play.
ty
(filler)
What I find funny (and ironic a bit) is that every other forum you’d post this on, you’d be slammed for being too extreme.
Here, you’ll get slammed for being too conservative : P
So, yeah. With going out of town, work, and hosting the 5/24 tournament (plus the aftermath), I got really sidetracked when it came to updating this thread. ^_^’ I finally finished the v2.0 of our item impressions write-up; I’d re-post it here, but it’s like 13 pages (printed) of data, so I’ll just link to it. Beware: the thread I’m linking to is a SWF thread, and I know you guys are all on bad terms right now. I apologize for that, but that’s where the project started, and unless I really get the feeling that we’ll get a lot of support or a lot of constructive input, I don’t see myself needing to post something like that anywhere else for the time being; one massive-ass thread is good enough.
You can find our detailed impressions here.
Since I’ve gotten really off track, feel free to ask away, and I’ll do my best to facilitate the discussion as I can.
Do you mind responding to my assertion about the Smash Ball then?
My major problem with your impressions list is that you ban the Smash Ball on account of being powerful, wildly different based on the character using it and capable of turning the match around in one fell swoop
I disagree with any of those qualities being a problem, as these sort of attacks have more or less has been a staple of the fighting genre since Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. And just because it’s powerful and hard to deal with, doesn’t necessarily make it broken.
QFT.
And the vulnerability on whiff is brutal.
Heres the major problems I see:
Cracker Launcher [BANNED] - Easily the most brutishly powerful of the projectile items, the Cracker Launcher only has one real strategy: land a shot and continue to try to juggle the opponent …
My comments: The cracker launcher is very easy to dodge, and picking it up basically tells your opponent “Hey, rush in on me and hit me for free.” There is no reason to ban this item at all.
Smart Bomb [BANNED] - An item built off of the concept of chaos…
My Comments: A good player can get out of the blast radius easily. You should never, EVER be ko’d with this thing (might be based on character size). The very worst is you take a small amount of damage and then DI away. Shouldn’t be banned at all.
Unira [BANNED] - On the surface, the Unira seems like an average throwing item…
My comments: One of the most mundane items in the game. Seriously. Banning this just seems silly, I have NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER seen a unira single handedly unbalance a match. Ever,
Golden Hammer [BANNED] - Taking the concept of risk/reward and stretching it as thin as it can, these two items wildly fluctuate between ‘balanced’ and ‘broken’ depending on who you talk to…
My comments: Everyone with a non tether throw can perfect shield throw a golden hammer user. Golden hammer is very powerful, but there are definite counters in place for it. As such, banning this (while leaving regular hammer) is not a good idea. Besides, it spawns so slow, the smashball effect of fighting over the spawn comes into play here.
Smash Ball [BANNED] …
My comments: Banning a smash ball because it doesn’t provide equally useful moves to all characters is silly. This is not a symmetrical game, and as such, factors such a “final smash” effectiveness comes into play at the character select screen, as well as the stage selection screen. On top of this, fighting over the smash ball brings another level of gameplay to the fight. Definitely shouldn’t be banned.
Also, you can’t forget the…what is it? One in eight shot that you’re going to die by picking it up? I played some matches yesterday and I was on my last life and wouldn’t pick up the gold hammer for that exact reason.
Before I respond to each individual point, let me say this: the majority of the complaints (valid though they may be) I’ve read so far have been on a singular point of contention for any given item (you’ll see what I’m talking about in a second). Remember that those of us in the project who made this impressions list have three (3) criterion for balance. Yes, some of the comments I will respond to are very valid and true… but most only deal with one of the three criterion, and some of those criterion (like Risk v. Reward) have sub-criterion that have to be taken into consideration, too!
Now, Pimp Willy, I’ll start with you (because your post is within reach of the ‘quick reply’ box ^_^):
Cracker Launcher: Yes, we took into account the fact that aiming with the C. Launcher is a royal pain in the ass, and that if you miss, you’ll probably be punished for it, but there are other flaws that unbalance it more than you think. First of all, it’s power as a throwing item proportional to the difficulty in dodging it. If you miss a shot, why not just ditch the thing (if you know you’ll be punished)? You can pick it back up, plus the approaching opponent now has to deal with a slow-moving and rather large projectile being thrown. Believe it or not, it is harder to dodge the C. Launcher than any other projectile item because of the combination of its slow speed AND its large size, which means that it may still be intersecting your character even when your dodge animation is over with. Second, the shots don’t effect the user AT ALL. What’s stopping someone from simply firing at their feet when they pick up the Launcher? The blast radius of C. Launcher shots are roughly the size of most medium-build characters (like Mario), which means a constant stream (or even just a well-timed stream) of shots aimed at the feet can nullify any approach attempt with little to no skill involved, so if you miss a shot, jump back, aim down, and you’ll most likely be ok (if you aren’t Dedede).
Smart Bomb: First of all, the Smart Bomb isn’t designed to KO, and we say as much in the impressions; the % necessary for the Smart Bomb to KO is really, really high. That’s not the issue. The issues with the Smart Bomb stem more from the damage it does (spoiler: a lot) and from its effect-on-spawn properties. Smash DI does work in negating the majority of the knockback and a portion of the damage caused by the bomb, but you’ll still be hurting a LOT if you get caught anywhere near this thing. It can also detonate upon spawn, which usually isn’t that big of a deal (see: Gooey Bomb; it has the highest KO% and lowest damage % of all the bomb-type items), but those two properties working in concert can seriously sway the tide of battle, which defeats the purpose of… well, competitive Smash as it stands now.
Unira: This is actually the one item I kind of agree with you on. Personally, I don’t see anything too broken about it. The only real problem is that it is just crazy powerful when thrown (we’re talking low % KOs here), but you can always just air/spot dodge it. Of course, the vacuum effect really messes with things, but its range isn’t good at all, and the item itself even accounts for this (you can only get harmed by a ground-based Unira once every second or so, I forget the exact amount).
Golden Hammer: I’m sorry, but this item is straight-up broken. Sure, you can powershield to a grab with most characters, but the smart GH user will never give you that chance. The range is enough so that if you just barely glance the opponent, even if he powershields he won’t be in range to grab, in which case you’re screwed. Add to that the fact that ledgestalling (the Hammer’s biggest weakness) doesn’t work due to the hover feature and the sheer ridiculous power behind each swing, and you have a frankly really broken item. Oh, and 1-in-8 (assuming that’s right) is not a high enough chance to balance out that power. 1-in-5 or 1-in-3, maybe we’ll talk. But 1-in-8 is too low a chance for backfiring for an item with that much KO potential.
Smash Ball: sigh The biggest point of contention, believe it or not. Maybe there are a few bigger fights over the Dragoon, but Smash Balls are usually always a hot-button topic. Look, I like Smash Balls. I main Link, and his FS is great. They are fun, new, and exciting. But they just aren’t implemented well. Balance aside (which ultimately isn’t as important because, as you say, having a good FS factors into character balance the same way having good Smash attacks does, that is to say its just another move to be used), they just aren’t conductive to the current competitive metagame. The battle for the Smash Ball can be entirely one sided and favors faster characters over slower ones (and no, slower, more powerful characters don’t have moves aside from Smash attacks and things like the Warlock Punch that can reliably break the ball in one hit), characters that already have better FS’s anyway. The amount of damage it takes to break the Smash Ball fluctuates randomly between spawns. You gain instant invincibility upon activating your Final Smash which lasts the duration of the move. You can’t be knocked out of a FS, unlike supers in most other fighting games. Very few Final smashes can be punished upon whiffing in the manner you describe (moves like the Zero Laser, Mario Finale… well, honestly, not many because the invincibility usually lasts until you regain control of your character, meaning most whiffed FS’s can’t be reliably punished in any meaningful way). I would have LOVED to have Smash Balls in 1v1… but there’s just no way I can ignore ALL the glaring flaws in their design in favor of adding one super-powered move to each character’s arsenal. Now, 2v2? Different story. I might, possibly, MAYBE be able to work Smash Balls into 2v2 play. Maybe. But don’t hold your breath.
Anyone who thinks that fast characters really have the advantage in popping the smash ball first either did not give them enough testing/time, and/or never really got good at the strategy around smash ball control. It simply does not work that way.
Even if that is the case (and I’m not sure I personally agree), the rest of the glaring flaws more than make a valid case for their exclusion from 1v1 fights. Like I said, 2v2 with Team Attack on? Maybe we have something going there. But the implementation is just too… not conductive to everything we know about competitive play so far (plus they break balance criterion left and right, which is WAY more important to the project).
please read my last post.
what you are talking about is a very onesided mind game, and the golden hammer is not.
its large start up for pick up makes sure you know its there.
you can attack through the hammer with the right air moves. some straight through, some trading to get through.
counters also own the hammer no matter what. you can projectile spam against it. right there gives many of the characters in the game offense against it.
and how is the hover feautre “broken”? its really good, but it is something you can simply shield and roll away from on reaction. hovering doesn’t kill edge stalling, as you can roll through and clean escape someone hovering or you can ledge attack through the hammer when they get too close.
and in all these situations we’re talking about where you can’t counter properly is a range where the hammer player isn’t really attacking you… more like playing ranges. fine. i don’t see what the problem is.
you have a powerful item on the field. you have a very likely chance that it will be a rubber hammer. if you don’t get it, you have time to prepare a counter. if you do get it, you have to range it right to be completely effective. and even if you do, your opponent can still defend it, block it and play mind games, and they still have to be at a considerable % (60-80%ish depending) to get k.o.ed. and if they do implement a proper defensive scheme and hit you, you’re looking at taking a shit load of damage.
i don’t see what the problem is outside of cats not knowing how to really beat a hammer user straight out.
The main problem is, again, risk/reward. The Golden Hammer is incredibly powerful, and scoring a low % kill because of a single mistake is a big problem as far as R/R is concerned. Remember as well that one of our criterion for item balance was universal counters to item strategies, so we can’t simply say that certain characters can projectile spam or certain characters can counter because those aren’t universal strategic counters; sure, that fact figures into the equation, but much less than, for instance, powershield->shield grab does. Add to that the fact that we ALSO have a much less broken Hammer that works just as well (if not better) at enriching item play and there really isn’t that much of a reason to spend more time and energy justifying including the GH.
But its not a problem in any other game. Why is smash SOOO special that using something powerful or getting a low percentage kill needs to be removed? I could lose 1 of my characters in 1 hit in any given game of MvC2. I could make one mistake in ST and lose 60-70%, often leading to a dizzy and ending the round.
In order to truly make smash a competitive game, we need to stop coddling players who are afraid of making “one mistake” leading to a “ko”. High level players know they need to avoid making mistakes. Thats how you win tournaments.
Keits, you always have the tools to do those things in other fighters. In Smash, you have a random chance of getting those tools. That’s the thing, Smash players don’t have a problem with low-percentage kills if it’s something that comes from something the character always has. What causes a problem is that someone could get the Smash equivalent of “lol ROM Infinite” by being in the right place at the right time.
This has been discussed at length man, nobody’s coddling anybody. Quit with the generalizations.
that’s if you buy the argument that it’s a random chance. the chance of getting an item is less “random” than you think, especially with a golden hammer. You can’t even pick up a golden hammer until the animation finishes
note: I’m not arguing for or against golden hammer.