Keits, in response to your AT vid, even though all the assist trophies are avoidable using similar strategies, why would you want to turn the game into nothing but ledge stalling and keepaway for 30 seconds every time someone picks up an AT? That sounds boring, not to mention that under the risk/reward system the only risk with picking up an AT is picking it up right next to your opponent and getting punished for it, while the rewards can be a pretty significant % for no work on the user’s part.
Also, human opponents will be way better at predicting when you’re going to spotdodge, airdodge, or roll and will punish you far more easily than a computer.
Edit:
And on the topic of the item ban list in general, including items like starman while banning items like the fan make it somewhat difficult to take this list seriously. The starman provides a significant reward for no risk and the best case scenario when it’s activated is that the opponent can successfully stall the match long enough to avoid damage. This is not to mention that the starman is active upon spawn and activates as soon as it touches an opponent thus preventing any reasonable way of planning or reacting to its presence unless it happens to spawn equidistant from both players.
I also fail to see the strategic implementation of the gooey bomb as all it requires either player to do is fight normally and dodge when the bomb is going to explode. I see this taking away more from matches than it adds. When that is considered alongside its ability to explode on impact I think it warrants removal.
On a separate note, the test videos show matches of CPU vs CPU. This kind of testing, while seemingly empirical, has no bearing on what happens in matches vs humans. CPUs do not predict or learn, and they are completely unaware of tactics like ledge stalling.
Absolutely no stage should be banned. Plain-and-simple, there’s no reason to ban a single one. You can make the case for the “neutral” stage at the start, but there’s absolutely no excuse for banning a stage. You can say “ewww, random” all day, but it’s not random in favor of the guy who picked the level, and if you, for some reason, decide to bring somebody to Warioware, then it’s on you. You know that there’s a chance that your opponent is gonna turn big and get a star and whatever else. And to remove the scrolling levels or the levels where you can walk off, is equally moronic. I’m good at levels where you have to jump around a lot. I was good in Melee when it came to Pokefloats, Big Blue and Rainbow Cruise. Now, I’m good in Big Blue, Rainbow Cruise and 75m. And to say “ooooh, there’s no competitive value in that stage!” is moronic.
Really, banning stages pisses me off more than banning items. There is no randomness at all in any level. And if there is, you know it’s there, and it’s not going to skew in favor of the person who chooses it for the simple fact that they chose it.
The “debate” over which items should be banned shouldn’t even exist, as Keits said.
Not only can you bait and fight back during an assist, but most of them last less than 10. You are also vunerable to ranged punishement for picking up an AT from quite a few characters and other items.
Lets not over simplify things. This is a game where people complain its too campy and there is not enough offense. ATs add huge ammounts of flavor to the game, and can really help get offense moving. On top of that, evading most of these only requires a little ledge stalling on FINAL DESTINATION. If you’d read the notes in the video, or even actually played with ATs on, you would know that.
I apologize for my hyperbole. I will avoid that method of presenting my point from now on.
Actually the list of items I keep on for regular play includes pokeballs and ATs, I just don’t think they add as much as you say they do. I wasn’t trolling, I was adding my opinion.
On the ledge stalling thing, I know that none of them require ledge stalling, but the fact is that ledge stalling is the best tactic to completely avoid most ATs and not get hit by your opponent. In tournaments, people do what’s best to not get hit in order to avoid losing, that’s why it would boil down to this and be very boring.
Edit: sorry about the starman comment, I misread the OP
I think the items-on people are not looking to supplement the core game with items. They think items should be part of the core game. So the argument that items just adds 10-15 seconds of stalling and ruins the core game don’t hold water. It is just part of the core game. Whether its fun or not is subjective.
The debate should be about specific items- the viability of items in tourneys in general is one of the things the OP didn’t want to veer the topic into.
For the sake of the topic not being locked, since I think the discussion of the viability of SPECIFIC items is necessary, I think we shouldn’t tread down that path.
I didn’t mean to tread down that path, I think that a lot of items are great and fun and strategic and deep, I just don’t think that AT’s fall into that category.
Yar, Keits’ vids are great, but he shouldn’t have to make one for every single item and why it is in no way broken, or even necessarily potent. I mean, we don’t want him to dedicate his life to proving everything we already know. Smashboarders may as well demand other things must be proven before accepted, like proving that the sky is 1) Blue, 2) has clouds, 3) etc.
Anyway, bat is overrated. It’s a throwing item. And you can catch throwing items. The bat serves one critical purpose though. It’s a guaranteed KO if somebody whiffs a final smash.
lol Lamewadd. Same stuff could be said about SRK like proof is needed to show that randomly spawning items add randomness to the game. <_< I think both communities are bull headed like any fighting game community (no arguements of Smash bros not being a fighting game please XD).
Also, if you think all stages should have been on in Melee, you probably didn’t play Melee competitively…or you were a Fox main.
Ok, guys, let’s keep it on topic. No bickering will be allowed in here; we’re already apparently toeing the line of getting the thread closed for just being an item play thread.
Keep the talking restricted to items and item play, if you could.
