Official discussion thread regarding Game design - what pleases you about ST and HDR

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
81

Actually most of the super in ST are fine. The only two game changing (or game dynamic changing) supers are boxer’s and ryu’s.

Boxer just build meter too fast (second to fei I’d say) and having a super shut down a lot of footsies / zoning game.

Plus his super has too long of a invincibility start up frames, making it too good to punish stuff on reaction from far away.

And safe on block make it a great gamble option that Jeff hated.

Ryu’s super - again having it just shutdown a lot of character’s options.

I think Boxer’s super should have invincibility start up frames like Chun’s. That would be more fair to use it on reaction. (You can see a lot of top chun player would still mess up super thru a fireball).

And chun’s super, I guess the damage reduction treatment in HDR is ok. Kinda inline with what Jeff suggested (Jeff suggested a super should only do a Fierce punch + medium punch damage).

82

Hmm, I don’t think I agree with that entirely, but for the most part I don’t disagree with the logic. It’s mostly recounted situations like, stored super walk up throw/super 50/50s isn’t very fundamental (it’s why you have to execute in future games as opposed to just storing the super). I think there are interesting dynamics to it, but it’s also fun to me when those elements aren’t there. Like when DGV and others said that Ryu vs Ryu with no supers/ex moves is extremely fun. There’s just something about the purity of that kind of match.

I don’t think that it’s solely Ryu and Boxer’s supers, but I’d agree with you that those are probably the two obvious offenders. Either way, I think supers do add an interesting element to the game, but certain ways they are applied are kind of fucked up. It’s a touchy thing, but I still like ST the most regardless of it. It’s also why I laugh when folks say “Play ST” as opposed to like “play Hyper Fighting.” ST was the start of all this craziness that we see in fighting games today. Just a matter of fact, there’s some “non-fundamental” shit going on.

83

Agreed that people love some non-fundamental stuff and other bs in fighting game. The “surprises” are what make it fun.

I also happen to like a bit of randomness in ST like you don’t exactly know when you’ll dizzy an opponent (except TOD), but you have a general idea that he’s about to. Having a dizzy bar shown under the life bar would take away some of the fun IMO.

Also I remember in CE once I did a cr.fierce xx DP that took 80% life. That’s just amazing.

That’s Ed Ma. DGV you play ssf4? :slight_smile:

84

If you have time, check out the “Things I don’t understand about ST” thread, we’re breaking down the “randomness” to dizzy. Not as random as we once thought!

85

Say what you want about Supers, but the most exciting thing I’ve ever seen in any Street Fighter game was a result of Supers being in ST. Nothing to me even comes close to the Taira ‘Bird Cage Escape’ trick that he pulled off at SBO2008. [media=youtube]zOqQ0oziBRo&#t=5m41s"]Three reversals in a row, two to build meter, the last a reversal a Super to explode out of the corner. To quote Zazza…[URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGqrrCKDaL8”[/media]. That’s about as high of a level of Street Fighter play as you’ll ever see.

[media=youtube]pkbxA3ZY1mI&#t=2m20s[/media]
[media=youtube]Hz9MocEjBNI&#t=46s[/media]
[media=youtube]T3aOdGK_hHw&#t=4m28s[/media]
[media=youtube]zXt-L873Jac&#t=5m00s[/media]

86

I’ll have to check out the randomness section about the dizzies.

87

Game Changing Supers: rog, ryu, sim, chun, dic

decent supers that are useful but don’t ruin flow of matchup: T.Hawk, Ken, Guile, Sagat (only because of it’s weak damage), Fei, Cammy, Dee Jay

meh supers/limited application: gief, claw

Crap: Honda, Blanka

Most supers are OK… not as bad as Schaeffer makes them out to be. Dic’s is OK because he has no reversal and he really needs it. Ryu would have a REALLY hard time in some matchups without super… still not really warranted imo. The same can be said for rog, but that really only applies to O.Sagat. Chun Li’s isn’t too bad if you have a fireball (9 characters don’t though). Dhalsim’s super is completely undeserved. He really should not have such a powerful super, it helps his defense out too much.

88

blanka’s super is good

89

I assume you know how to stop Blanka from doing the bounce at the end of his super.

90

Honda’s Super might be weak, and barely useful, in many matches, but in a few matches it is more than capable of securing high damage. Against Boxer in particular you can use Honda’s Super in all sorts of situations, offensive and defensive, it is very versatile. If the Boxer player tries a meaty attack on Honda, Honda can reversal Super and all four hits will connect, however if Boxer reads you right and baits your Super with a fake meaty, he can headbutt your Super cleanly. You can also jump at or walk forward and bait your opponent playing Boxer into using a rush punch, and then hit him with a four-hit stored Super. Dictator is vulnerable to the Super as well from closer ranges, however if you try to activate from a full screen away then Dictator can usually psycho crusher into your Super and beat it outright. Lastly, if you have a full Super Meter and you dizzy your opponent, you can easily combo into Honda’s Super because it has the stored motion ability.

91

If your reactions are good, Honda’s super is very dangerous as he advances from mid-screen. It’s a classic case of brinkmanship as he walks forward where you have to be aware of a 4-hit super stuffing pokes or walk-up kick throw. Plus, if he pauses there in df crouch position, he can threaten with both stored super (to blow through pokes) and sumo smash (which many folks forget is still an option and still charges for a subsequent super as long as you hold forward).

It’s still one of the weakest supers (good movement; poor usability, movement, damage, and safety) but from what I see, most folks in the US aren’t taking advantage of the few upsides.

92

It’s very difficult to land all four hits of Honda’s super. Basically it’s only useful against a projectile character with a tiny portion of life left, as a wakeup, which good players will rarely fall for or as a walk up to stuff a poke as you say but good players will be able to recognize when you are trying to do this as you’ll have to stop poking with any punch moves (mainly jab, which is his best poke) and against any projectile character, you’re not going to get many opportunities to walk up to them like that.

It’s a very high risk, low reward super since the majority of the cast can punish him either between hits or afterwards, especially Boxer and Chun Li with their super. Like VF said, it’s only useful in a handful of matchups and only in very limited situations. And it’s not very useful in his worst matchups.

93

Nope but it does pretty good chip damage, doubles as anti air in situations where Blanka can’t anti-air, and there are a bunch of tricky things you can do with it if you land a knockdown close to the corner. I think you have to land it as a meaty for it to not bounce. Either way, I think Blanka’s super is pretty useful. For some reason, I always find myself in situations where the opponent only has a little bit of life left when playing as Blanka and the Super is perfect for those situations.

Worst supers are the grapple supers (not including claw’s which is ok against Dhalsim for comeback wins for which some reason I always fall for) in my opinion since you can always win without it and by the time you’ve dealt enough damage to use it, a regular spd would probably kill them anyway. I think any super that does good chip damage is useful.

94

Why do people consider Claw’s super a bad or average one ?

It’s just a straight damage buff that never whiffs.
It turns every walldive into a possible 50% super.

From experience i will say it has a bigger throw range aswell but never had that confirmed.

95

This is wrong in hawks case. his super is awesome. it can bring you back into the game at ANY TIME. It has great reach, and because its a super, it eats of the reversal input of the other guy. Example, jump jab spd against geif is pretty much impossible if the gief player is on his toes. but jump jab 720 will go to hawk every time. Evoanon and Sesshomaru can confirm this as I use it as my main strategy against gief.

Then the walking super is just plain nasty. I’m finally able to do it in game. Now its just about training mode to be consistent.

96

Sometime in the distant future I’ll write a long front page style article detailing various things with Supers in ST. For now I’ll just quickly hit on a few things (without video examples as those take forever to find), pros and cons of each Super, and I’ll give a quick Super tier list. Feel free to add or subtract from the lists or adjust my tier placings. I’ll edit this later but for now I’m saving my progress.

Top Level Supers:

-Boxer-

Pros:

  • controls entire horizontal screen, can hit fireballs from almost anywhere especially with the whiffed rush into Super trick
  • shuts down opponents from throwing as many projectiles if any at all
  • excellent at punishing whiffed normals in footsies
  • great for chipping opponents to death
  • tons of damage with just the Super alone
  • can be used in many combos for more damage
  • can be used in hit-confirm combos so you don’t waste the Super
  • can be used on crouching (renda cancel sometimes needed) and standing opponents during combos
  • useful as a reversal in defensive situations
  • not that easy to safe jump
  • can get Boxer out of Zangief or Hawk corner pressure
  • Boxer can very quickly build meter
  • decent as an anti-air Super at mid-screen, amazing as an AA Super in the corner
  • can hit for the full five hits as an anti-air Super in the corner
  • almost always safe on block
  • threat of Super can cause people to lock up and eat a throw instead

Cons:

  • can be dragon punched cleanly at the right distances
  • Punch Super loses to Zangief’s lariat (Kick Super wins however)
  • some characters can bait the Super and jump at hit it from the air
  • Super twitches in the corner during which Boxer can be thrown or attacked
  • huge animation length if whiffed so can be punish if opponent avoids Super

-Chun-

Pros:

  • enormous damage outright, especially when you can combo into it (though the damage is usually redundant)
  • can juggle off of Super for even more damage
  • good (but not great) at going through fireballs
  • can be stored walking forward which sets up the powerful throw/Super mixup
  • Chun can build meter very rapidly
  • great in footises at punishing or baiting whiffed normals
  • good as a reversal attack for defensive purposes
  • easy execution as a reversal or for punishing whiffed attacks (just press a kick when you’re storing forward)
  • safe on block
  • very good for chip damage
  • can get Chun out of Hawk’s throw loop

Cons:

  • can be dragon punched cleanly or even attacked by lots of normals on its early frames
  • not strong as an anti-air
  • ??? there’s got to be more…

-Ryu-

Pros:

  • very high damage (you can say this about almost every Super really)
  • Ryu can build meter very quickly and very safely
  • excellent and versatile with combos, can be used in hit-confirm combos as well
  • a blocked Super sets up Ryu’s overhead/low/SRK/throw guessing game
  • great for chip damage
  • great for footsies and punishing whiffed attacks (there’s an X-Mania 1 video where Daigo baits a flash kick and punishes with a Super)
  • changes the dynamics for fireballs as Ryu’s Super can blow through fireballs
  • can be used off of Ryu’s jumping strong juggle punches for big anti-air damage potential
  • fake Super motion (crouching twice in a row) can bait opponents into jumping and eating a dragon punch or falling on top of a normal fireball

Cons:

  • loses to tons of special moves, dragon punches, Boxer’s headbutts, and various Supers
  • not really strong by itself as an anti-air but Ryu already has tons of good anti-air anyways
  • if the Super whiffs Ryu is in recovery for a good amount of time (Hawk can bait and hit Ryu with a dive cleanly for example)

-Dictator-

Pros:

  • it’s his only true reversal attack
  • tons of damage potential especially with jumping strong punches tacked on
  • can do jumping strong juggle into Super juggle for lots of damage
  • can combo into Super with tons of attacks (can’t hit-confirm combo though)
  • great at blasting through fireballs, throws, or whiffed normals
  • Dictator has great blockstrings that you can build charge in and then go for a Super at the end of them
  • excellent for chip damage
  • great and simple way to finish off a dizzied opponent
  • can set up strong traps like psycho magic or other corner sequences
  • Devil’s Super (do a devil’s hand and on landing activate your Super)
  • Taira meter escape (look in ST Wiki Dictator section or find Zazza’s video on YT)
  • Drop Super (do a headstomp, hold down punch to drop immediately, activate Super on landing)
  • walking Super technique

Cons:

  • it’s his only true reversal attack and it’s only one time use
  • if baited can be stuffed from the air by lots of stuff
  • second set of scissor kicks loses to tons of stuff
  • not always safe on block and can be very unsafe on block
  • can whiff on some opponents like Cammy or Blanka if they are crouching

Upper-Mid Supers:

Dhalsim
Fei
DeeJay
Ken
Claw

Lower-Mid Supers:

Sagat
Cammy
Guile
T.Hawk

Low Level Supers:

Zangief
Honda
Blanka

97

I think hit-confirming Ryu’s super is only feasible in cross-up combos against a few characters (aerial attack, cr.strong, super cancel off cr.forward if it hits). Against Dhalsim would be the really feasible, but there’s a chance he will be dizzied, making the super whiff completely. It takes significantly more training than Boxer, Ken, Dictator (renda cancels + renda super cancel), Chun and Fei’s (renda cancel + ordinary super cancel), as you need a link before it. I would remove that and add that it poses a great threat in mix-ups, specially after aerial attacks. One example against Gief, after knocking him down:[LIST]
[]jumping jab/strong, throw
[]jumping jab/strong, super
[*]jumping jab/strong, cr.fwd xx super
[/LIST]

Noguchi and others (Neoray does it in GGPO) make Fei’s super look really good and 100% hit-confirm-able, but there is an inherent disadvantage similar do Ryu’s super after diagonal jumping strong: what matters is not the total damage, but the damage difference. In Fei’s case, I do not think the super does that much more damage than the 3 rekka punches he would usually employ. As for Ryu, the difference is precisely 20% damage (before damage penally), which is what one gets after 3 jumping strong hits. I think his super is better than Dee Jay’s, though, due to being a bit harder to punish.

Dictator’s super from full screen is a really bad idea against most characters. Free SRK, headbutt, etc. “Taira meter escape” seems redundant as it is his only reversal. I believe one may find characters doing tatsus, headbutts and the like to build meter against Hawk.

Another advantage of Boxer’s super is that when it whiffs towards the corner, it often gets faster recovery.

I would say Hawk’s is better than Claw’s. Great damage and gives Hawk good range. Which one would be the worst? As Ryu, Honda’s is definitely the worst one. Blanka’s is weak, but when you are near death you are forced to guess, and it can be made safe. Honda’s gives some trouble from max range, but it is almost always reversable.

98

[media=youtube]PIb_XaNfqgM&#t=2m16s[/media]

Watch what happens to Boxer’s Super…

99

Honda’s super is very useful against defensive Rogs that try to keep you out with repeated standing jabs. Honda can do b, f + P for the headbutt then b, f again to store super, and if Rog tries to low rush you after he hits you with a jab you can easily hit him with super. baby nine uses it against Tsuji [media=youtube]i8kiL1_6DVM&#t=1m46s"[/media].

100

Are Sim and Ken’s supers only “Upper Mid Tier” because they’re not viable reversals?

I still think they both have a lot going for them. They’re like [media=youtube]9rbjHtUWEb4#t=0m35s"]the two most-invincible supers in the game. Both can be comboed into with cr. short. Meaty Sim super is guaranteed chip at the least, but it also completely negates Ryu’s super unless you time it perfectly and [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwM2kgRnIjg#t=1m31s”[/media].
And yeah, Ryu’s super [media=youtube]6uHVRPMXMlc#t=2m58s"[/media] lose to a ton of stuff.