Whether HDR did or didn’t convert the majority of ST players over isn’t the whole point though. It got many people playing the game who had no inclination to even give ST a shot, and there are a bunch of people who definitely prefer HDR over ST. There is a definite split there, and popularity doesn’t wholly side with one or the other.
Regarding the new art, again, I agree with you, I don’t like it. I’m not making any arguments about how it could have turned out or anything of the sort. All I’m saying is that the art was a major selling point of the game. The average gamer got excited for a more modern-looking version of the game they played the shit out of when they were younger. The art was the hook, it was what built hype for the game. From a business perspective, it was probably a necessary component to getting the project off the ground, because no matter how much you or I prefer ST’s art, those graphics don’t sell games now.
Eh? HDR Cammy’s drills aren’t completely safe (do a drill from the wrong distance, and it’s still a free hit for your opponent), and Sirlin * did* improve their recovery.
True, but what are a few failings in this department versus Sirlin’s more numerous successes? Why are you ST devotees willing to overlook egregious problems in that game while pointing out HDR’s fewer flaws in exact detail?
I mean, if I have to choose between (1) Zangief (bottom tier) getting more powerful and (2) Claw (top tier) knocking people down with his ambiguous wall dives, I know which one I’m picking.
I am not an HDR hater, if that is your perception I would state you are near the point you can barely tell the difference between a message from someone with different opinion and a flame post. Calm down, dude.
The issue is showing that HDR did not accomplish the objective of being easy to play it after playing ST (in case this was an objetive at all). That not all ST players can just pick HDR and play it fine. For example, I have serious issues with hadoukens, and I trained myself to always kara-cancel a short so as to reduce the recovery, and that gives me a fake hadouken almost every time in HDR. My other character, Super Ken, does not even exist in the game, so I am screwed. For similar reasons, the next SF2 tournament that will take place in my country will be HDR Classic Mode, as most players either did not feel comfortable with the changes or have never played it.
I guess you didn’t like the word “devotee,” but that’s what you are. And face facts: like the rest of these ST devotees, you are curiously enumerating HDR’s alleged flaws as problematic, while citing ST’s flaws as some kind of delectable flavor that HDR should have maintained.
Except for Super, each version of Street Fighter II was a smashing success – and yet, each version played very differently from the last, much more so than HDR plays differently from ST. Was it bad that CE deviated from WW? That HF deviated from CE? That ST is radically different from HF?
It wasn’t.
Cool beans. If you’re not willing to adapt to accommodate updated game design, that’s fine. I don’t play SF4 because, among other reasons, I don’t like that game’s design and its special move input detection. I’m a Cammy player, though, so HDR is actually much better for me than ST.
shrug Hey, I’m sure there are people who still hold Hyper Fighting tournaments because they don’t like what Super and Super Turbo did to their game. (No more Ken TOD, WTF??)
Yeah, but the power levels are significantly lower in HDR, removing a lot of stuff that was overwhelming to scrubs to make it friendlier to them.
The complaint is that Sirlin changed stuff that was fine to avoid scaring scrubs. We didn’t need most of the executin changes, a lot of the nerfs were unnecessary, and most of them were detrimental to the game.
Cammy is nearly as garbage as she was in ST. Chun got hammered (she just needed a couple of tweaks -tone down MP throw and super damage- and not what Sirlin did), T.Hawk is garbage and I laugh at anyone who still tries to say he’s better. The real problem with Vega wasn’t his walldive, it was (and still is) that he has superb turtling, and a lot of close distance characters have a really hard time getting in. Guile’s HK flashkick makes fights for close ranged characters even worse.
Finally, babyzone, while a silly term, is aimed mainly at the dumbed down execution. Plus, like damdai said, all his characters got better.
Indeed. Stupid shit is fun. It’s only a problem if it’s too easy to do or impossible to counter.
Yeah why not. She has touch of death combos, so why not add more fun, hard to execute stuff in there? TODs are OK, but a really hard to execute loop that requires a lot of skill is bad? Maybe the problem is that you can’t even execute that stuff?
The problem is that he tried to make matchups less one sided powering characters down, and not buffing low tiers enough (or even making them worse, see Fei and Hawk).
Maybe if Cammy had something powerful instead of still being garbage she would have even less of a hard time in HDR!
Where? The dumbed down 360s, chicken wing, tiger knee motions? The wider input window on Shoryukens? Easier to do MGU (which is weaker now because it’s easier to do!)?
Yeah, Sirlin didn’t manage to completely destroy ST’s execution. But the changes (except for changing f, d motions, which were actually detrimental to the game) were unnecessary and make the game less complex.
Yeah besides that now he can do TK juggle x 3, really hardcore.
LOL, Honda is still garbage against projectile characters.
[media=youtube]wJBwT8GEs-g[/media]
Seriously now, Hawk-Sim is not as lopsided as you think, if you have a good Hawk that is.
Anyways, I’m not even on the camp of the die hard ST players that didn’t want ANY change to the game because thy think it’s some sort of perfect game. If I could, I would buff the hell out of most of the low tiers so they can stand a better chance against the tops. Blanka with HF vertical balls, Cammy with Cannon strike, Fei with O.Fei’s normals for example. But HDR’s changes either made the low tiers worse or just slightly better (except for Gief). Less execution also makes the game worse. And, god, it looks and sounds like shit.
I would gladly play HDR over ST if, you know, it was an actual improvement.
Oh BTW
Ken still has a TOD. Pretty much every character in ST has one, and that’s still in HDR.
Speak for yourself, I don’t fear scrubs in HDR any more than I did in ST.
… Which is not why he changed stuff, neither was the stuff that he changed “fine.”
You have to get past the elitist attitude, and remove the “I see scrubs everywhere” glasses, to really understand why the changes were made.
Sirlin’s changes to special move inputs, for example, were effected to lower the manual dexterity element of the game, and to heighten the intellectual element. His approach, apparently, was that someone who knows what to do and how to do it should be on an even keel with his opponent with respect to execution. There should be no significant difference in difficulty of performing maneuvers between players A and B.
You can agree or disagree with that approach to whatever extent, but in any case, Sirlin’s aims had nothing to do with scrub aid. He simply wants the outcomes of contests to be more (i.e. not completely) about which player possesses the greater mental skills, and less (i.e. not completely) about who has the most nimble hands.
What do you even mean by “detrimental”? I’m pretty sure that Sirlin’s mods were detrimental in the same way that Hyper Fighting was detrimental to Champion, and Super Turbo was detrimental to Super. HDR is not Super Turbo.
Which should have you dancing in the streets, with all your talk of “unnnecessary” edits, and changing stuff that was “fine.”
What are you, the kind of player who banks on his opponent not being able to do a move? Just deal with it. Aqua Snake will spank you with his chicken wings; you can either lament the salad days of half-circle tiger knees, or you can man up and meet the problem head-on.
I’m much too enlightened to need brokenness in my games in order to enjoy them. I prefer a well-designed game that doesn’t have to resort to b.s. to be amusing.
No, TODs are not OK. Ever. Anything that allows a player to completely deplete his opponents K.O. gauge is bad game design. Inescapable loops, ToDs, whatever.
She does have something powerful: the hooligan roll. (James Chen has gone so far as calling it broken.) In the right situations (which are usually difficult to get into – just like T.Hawk’s o.s. loop), it is a devastating attack. She can use it to win; she doesn’t need some cheesy, stupid, unavoidable boy-shenanigans.
The problem, for you, is that my videos are not meant to prove a point on their own. Rather, they represent hard facts that every seasoned player knows to be true.
Here, [media=youtube]uuh1OX6-GCM]Kuni’s Zangief totally annihilates Justin Wong’s O.Sagat[/u[/media] (and destroys his Chun-Li, too). Of the facts that we know about O.Sagat – that he is top tier, that his strategy is largely spamming tiger shots, that it is extremely difficult to get in on him, and, indeed, that he beats Zangief – which does that video change?
If someone operated under the delusion that that fight was 3-7 in Zangief’s favor, would merely posting that video make it so?
Don’t project your reasons for posting a video onto me. My videos bespeak facts. Your videos pretend that the uncommon and the rare are everyday occurrences. Your videos are lies.
Claw’s wall dive loop, Chun’s knee bash against certain characters…these moves were changed because in realistic game play situations, they can remove the “out-think your opponent” element and replace it with what amount to coin flips. When the person executing the attack can cause a situation where even they don’t know the outcome, repeatedly, it’s not exciting or thrilling to escape…it’s just dumb luck.
Changing command inputs so that they are not unnecessarily complicated was one of the best ideas Sirlin had. They still all require a degree of mastery to accomplish in the heat of the moment (ie they’re not overly simplified), but now characters that had them all have a more realistic chance of actually using them when intended.
The inputs are not “dumbed down;” they’ve been made to be as relatively accessible as the move sets of the majority of the cast (especially considering that the characters with said extra hurdle tended to be the low tier ones). They are far from automatic, not even remotely overpowered for the difference, and every choice that applied to when you could use them in ST still applies in HDR.
Changing certain input windows, on the other hand, has adversely affected some play styles, and could use a serious reevaluation.
I know I explained this 10x times already but since you brought it up I’ll do it again.
SF2 is totally unlike SF4. Special moves are the core of the game. While in SF4 special moves alone do petty damage and you gotta master your b&b link combo, fadc ultra combo to stand a chance.
Considering how important special moves are in sf2, changing the motion of the special moves wreak havoc in the overall balance of the game. (gief able to 360 from down back blocking position is stupid)
Good priority, high damage moves should be harder to execute than low damage, low priority move.
Despite violating that balance, HDR is also inconsistent
If you think :hcf::uf: is hard (it’s hard for a reason, since that move is good), and change it to :qcf:
Why didn’t HDR change :r::d::df: to something easier? A lot of new players have problem with DP. They can do it on one side and not on the other side. Or they cannot do walk up DP. So it is not exactly accessible to some new players (as claimed by the HDR propaganda to cater to casual, non hard core players)
Sim’s super is not easy either. Why they didn’t change it to 2xqcb ? (hint: there is also a reason, since that move is so good. wait… isn’t it the same reason?)
What about claw’s super? :db::df::db::uf:
I don’t know about you guys but the first day that I play SFII, (and almost everyone’s 1st char is ryu), the first thing that I need to work on is my DP. Maybe I can do it 1 out of 5 times at the beginning?
Tell me if any of you can do DP as easy as FB the first day you play SF2.
Did capcom fail with WW? How many of us play that game as a kid? Is DP accessible when you first play the game?
Now HDR has to make Fei’s CW so easy as new player just can do it the first day?
So are we arguing that moves should intentionally be obtuse to do because that will make it harder for beginners ?
Or do people actually believe those motions are hard or even matter at a high level ?
I’ll use myself as an example despite my only above average skill.
I perform Claws super motion with every walldive i do if i have charge for it on pure habit and muscle memory.
Beginners have trouble doing it once.
What exactly does changing the motions do for me ?
What you are actually saying is that you want to design the game with solely the beginners in mind.
But not as to make them have an easier time learning the game but as to make it more obtuse and hard for them to get into.
I know, right? Niggaz talk about the alternate SPD motion being scrub-friendly, but it’s still longer and requires more skill to do consistently than a fireball or uppercut motion.
Some of our opponents in this discussion are Ryu and Ken players (oldschool, Damdai, etc.). I guess they play characters with “dumb,” scrub-friendly inputs. (Actually…)
But they’re mad now cuz we Gief, Hawk, Cammy, and Fei players now have inputs that are as butt easy as theirs, or slightly less difficult to pull off than before. Makes it a little tougher for them to win games, SCANDALOUS.
In extreme examples of reducing special moves to one-button inputs, sure. Merely removing chances for less seasoned players to flub by changing the motions to something more fluid, something that doesn’t overlap something else, or something that doesn’t end with a possible jump, while still demanding a certain degree of execution mastery? That’s a good thing.
As Shari and many others have said, seasoned vets will consistently execute Hooligans, CW kicks, and standing/walking 360s anyway. Most importantly, there isn’t a single example in HDR that supports your statement here about “wreaking havoc.”
Oversimplification, sir. Good priority, high damage moves should have a trade-off of some kind, such as longer recoveries. You don’t “balance” a move by simply making it more difficult to execute, because players will still be able to eventually execute it consistently and exploit it.
The goal wasn’t to remove the learning curve of SFII though. Performing an SRK in the open takes some practice, yes, but pulling it off in a zone trap or a clutch reversal situation requires a higher degree of mastery. Simply using a stick for the first time takes some getting used to, but you don’t see the buttons placed oddly all over the stick face to “separate the men from the boys.”
Sirlin didn’t change Sim’s super to 2xqcb because he felt the split second that input would save over the half circles risked making the move overly powerful. (For the record, I wish he had, but I can certainly understand his apprehension in doing so.) It wasn’t about the move being very powerful, then simply justifying it by making or keeping the motion more difficult. It’s also one thing to buffer the input on offense, but a different thing entirely to be able to use it on reaction on defense.
Regarding Claw’s super, again, it’s basically a built-in option-select anyway, unlike Guile’s. You can steer it with the up direction as well, and it’s never used as a reversal so it tends to come out more naturally when you do use it anyway.
Nope, but it wasn’t so difficult that I couldn’t pull it off a few times without too much trouble, and missing it didn’t set me up for total disaster like most of the moves that received input changes from ST to HDR.
Sirlin and so many SFII developers have learned much over the years; the core game play is great, but there’s a reason there have been so many versions of SFII, along with quite a bit of turning the dials down in each progressive release. Even with the release of ST so many years ago as the fifth iteration, I’ll bet Capcom had no idea it would be as popular and long-lasting…and therefore played to the limits of every nuance in the engine that they didn’t at the time feel were overpowered. Live and learn.
So yeah, changing the inputs as Sirlin did was pretty much the opposite of “dumbing them down.” Each one was surely deliberated over for quite some time, and they allow players to learn them, and how to use them, from the first time they decide to give this great game a try.
No reason to quit! I can see where you’re coming from with a lot of what you’re saying, and as someone who also plays a hell of a lot of ST I can understand why you’re so passionate about it, and changes to it. There’s just more to a lot of what you’re saying here than you’re taking into account, or giving proper credit for.
Milo, we both know good and well that damdai is damned good with some of the characters who received the most influential changes like Zangief, so he at the very least isn’t complaining simply because he’s more afraid of Gief as a Ken player. Your point about the durations and skill requirements of those moves, though, is dead-on.
Do people really feel that being able to perform a standing 360 with T.Hawk is the focus of the game, instead of doing the right things to set your opponent up for it in the first place?
Of course both apply to an extent, but when, say, Ryu drops a 30% combo when reacting to an opponent’s opening, he still usually gets some damage, and even pushes you out of range (which is to his benefit). When T.Hawk whiffs a command throw worth roughly the same amount of damage in the same situation, he’s either prone to be thrown himself or get chipped back (bad for him) if you buffered and safely ended in block, or he’s set up for some real pain himself.
Suddenly we see how lopsided some of the risk/reward situations are, and how that can explain differences in overall effectiveness (ie tier placement). Seems like a great place to start tweaking things from a design standpoint.
When you find yourself tending to buffer just to be able to execute a special move, it’s worth at least considering doing something about it.
When I knock down Sagat (who gets up quickly) and am a certain distance away from the sides, those extra frames spent performing the wall dive super motion and making sure I’m performing the motion on the correct side can be enough to miss out on a meaty. In those cases, I don’t always perform the super motion even when I have super.
The easier inputs in HDR don’t bother me as a whole, and there aren’t even any specific cases that I mind too much, aside from personal preference (I like the old motion for Tiger Knees, and I’m just used to Cammy’s old inputs). One thing I really like in theory is a fixed DP window, though I think 15 frames is a tad too large of a fixed window. There are definitely a few things I really like about HDR. Just not enough to get me playing it over ST.
Completely understandable on your preference, and I totally agree with you about liking the fixed windows, and the fact that some of them are too wide. ALL of the random damage and windows should have been fixed.
With HDR now, though, it ironically feels more…unwieldy…than ST due to the increased frequency of pulling off moves when you didn’t want to. Three button presses is too few for Blanka’s electricity, Chun’s kicks, and Honda’s slaps; four would have been a good compromise between better accessibility and “oops.” Every time I accidentally SBK just off the ground with HDR Chun, I want to kick a puppy.
Sure, some of the more odd input commands were mellowed out, and that’s fine by me…but the way the (overly) wider windows make the game feel makes me understand how many people so used to ST can be put off by HDR.
Of course what’s done is done; live and learn. I’ll play whichever gives me the most good competition, as there are things I like (and am not fond of) in both versions. Okinawan Hyper SFII championships in a week, baby!
Jeff posted a few follow up street fighter game design videos
[media=youtube]2m_CXO-0tWk[/media]
[media=youtube]LIQtZYJ2vdc[/media]
and he also have a self-help video to teach you how to beat daigo
[media=youtube]sqummot83IE[/media]
I’m gonna use his tips if I get a chance to play DGV at a tourney.
I’ll just look at the screen and tell myself : “I’ll just beat this scrubby ryu with my shenanigans like I did so many times on ggpo. Frame skipping dp here I come.”
Yeah, where he calls out ST for having some ridiculous stuff that isn’t really “fundamental” just made me realize that as fucked up as ST is, he still says that HDR doesn’t really do anything noteworthy either. “Wastes of Time”, I’d agree.
