Northwest VFers

[Chanchai]

Panda, it’s great to see you guys have a rivalry and it’s really awesome to have someone to grow with in VF. I’ve been lucky to have had Ray, some old VF3 players (Burnside being one of my favs), VF4 players (Shinryujin, Ricardo, Jason), and of course VF5 players (Andrew, now Simon too). It’s just been too awesome and it’s the best way to get so strong at VF.

I look forward to more sessions with you guys!

On to DEALING WITH ABARE: PART II!!!

…

ABARE IN GENERAL
Let’s consider that there are two general ways of looking at abare.

Beginner Abare - as in attacking all the time (like someone who doesn’t know any better). Players who play like this are usually easy to deal with. Solid play usually gets them by blocking them and countering properly with the most efficient option (low punch or elbow), and then you keep attacking them in an endless cycle of you interrupting their attacks because they are attacking at a disadvantage. A common type of beginner abare is low-punch spamming. And dealing with this is easy with some practice–just get close enough to block a low punch, and elbow, and then roll with the advantage.

Effective Abare - someone who is more or less playing with the flow of the game properly, but is also using attacks or situations that have properties that break the normal flow of the game.

Here’s a list of some of these types of attacks that are often part of Effective Abare:

• Attacks that are faster than normal (Vanessa’s (DS) df+P, Lion’s Back-Turned K).
• Attacks that slide under certain other attacks (Kage’s df+P, Lion’s b+P, Shun’s f+P+K, etc…). You can also include super-low attacks like Shun’s d+K since even some mid attacks will whiff.
• Sabaki attacks (covered in the Sabaki section).
• Attacks that create an advantage, this is covered in “Is It Really Abare?”
• Stance switches that create “easy to whiff” situations for the opponent (Shun’s Drinking, Pai’s low stance, Jeffry’s P+K+G, Jacky’s back-step, etc…)
• Using a non-clashing attack while knowing that you, the person who now has the advantage, is going to throw.

So again, you have beginner abare which is similar to mashing or just attacking too much. And this style is easy to beat, you just play solid and you do some forward defense to create an advantage, and then keep taking advantage of the frame advantage. And then you also have the more dangerous abare, players who know what they are doing and are properly using moves and stances to punish your “typical response.”

Handling the effective abare player either requires a lot of safe play (and focusing your game more on punishing mistakes than proactively pushing the guessing game except at the right times) or it requires understanding why the typical flow broke for you. Much of this article assumes you are dealing with effective abare players. The next section is about taking the safe route. Other sections tend to focus on the things to look for and understand so you know why the flow has been disrupted.

NEUTRALIZING THE SITUATION: HARD TO ABARE AN “EFFECTIVE” CHICKEN
Let’s repeat something I said way early in this article:
“Playing with effective Abare is playing with exceptions and risk.”

The risk on the abare player’s part is an assumption about your inevitable attack, and what type of attack that will be. The exception means that your opponent is not using a typical low punch, elbow, or straight forward attack to beat out your right to attack.

To make it even more clear, the abare player assumes you will attack or do nothing (because if you do nothing, his attack will hit you anyways, so no worries there). If you stand and Guard, you are wasting your advantage like you might as well not have had it to begin with. It would be a waste to not use up your advantage right? And because logic says you should attack, an effective abare player will try to use something that will override your likely next attack.

These statements probably seem weird when you’re talking about most other fighting games. But VF is the fighting game where it’s super rare to have attacks that give you advantage on block (while it’s the norm for so many other games). And because of that, the game naturally flows back and forth between attacking and defending.

In any case, one method for dealing with abare players is to focus on punishing their mistakes and assumptions instead of going toe-to-toe with them. This is easier said than done in VF for a number of reasons. It’s normal in almost every other fighter, but VF truly was built to be a forward attacking game.

So let’s look at some of our obstacles to being a chicken first, and then let’s look at how we can be a damn good chicken in VF. It’s very useful to be able to chicken once in awhile and it’s a pain in the ass to deal with. Especially for an Abare player, effective or not.

Obstacle: Backdash isn’t fullproof - In VF, you can be punished or even combo’d out of your back dash. The reason for this is simple: you have a decent number of vulnerability frames when you do a backdash. This is designed to discourage chicken play overall. Because of these vulnerability frames, it’s even more difficult to run away when you are at a disadvantage (when you’ve been hit, blocked, interrupted, or whiffed an attack).

Silver Lining: The backdash vulnerability frames is something that mostly affects a neutral situation or a disadvantage situation. Backdash is actually a valid and decent option after you’ve hit the opponent, blocked them, or seen them whiff (though you really should attack a whiffing opponent). But we are talking about our opponents playing abare. If the opponent is truly playing abare, backdash actually works for us in these cases.

Better than a Backdash: A technique to be known and used in this situation, but not to be overused (because you will suffer for it) is backdash-evade. b,b,d,n or b,b,u,n. In VF, you have advanced movement which includes cancelling your dashes with evades and cancelling your failed evades with dashes (successful evades cannot be cancelled). Ray and I both use these a lot in our matches and it’s very helpful for zoning. However, just know that a forward moving circular attack (Vanessa’s f,f+K or Lion’s f+K+G or df+K+G) will completely own this.

Obstacle: Evading isn’t something to be used when you have the advantage - unless you intended to use the evade as a part of advanced movement, evading while you have the advantage is virtually an instant fail because you will be evading before the opponent attacks (because you had the frame advantage).

Silver Lining: Advanced movement is okay, because it thrives on failed evades anyway and the act of dashing is a form of throwing away frames to increase the odds that your evade will occur during your opponent’s inevitable attack. But you should not start your advanced movement with the evade, it should be the second or later part of the advanced movement sequence.

Why You Should Chicken: Being a chicken isn’t about constantly running away or always defending. It’s about capitalizing more on guarantees, forsaking a forced guessing game, and frustrating even the most clever abare style players. You do this by creating enough margin of safety for yourself and waiting for your opponent to do something “stupid.” You should definitely attack while playing chicken–but you should attack when your opponent makes the mistake or you have enough advantage to override his exceptional options. Furthermore, at anytime you choose, you can switch from being a chicken to being a pitbull and rushing your opponent like crazy when he isn’t prepared for it.

Ways You Can Chicken:

• Creating space (ie. backdashing or advanced movement) when you have small advantage (like after blocking a poke, hitting with a poke, or after they hit you with a sidekick or non-knockdown low attack).
• If after creating space, they try to attack and whiff, PUNISH THEM!
• Punish all whiffed attacks with an attack or dash in throw or similar.
• Poke to prevent rushing.
• Make use of advanced movement and advanced defense when you learn them (advanced steps, fuzzy guard, option selects like reversal-throw-escape-guard, etc…).
• Figure out what your whiff-punishing attacks are (Jacky’s db+P,K is guaranteed on mC).
• If your opponent PUSHES (see “Is It Really Abare?” section), you should PULL. It’s fun letting your opponent trip on his greed This includes stance-switching that creates unique situations. You don’t always have to “play the game.”

What You Should Still Do:

• 50/50 Guessing game on big advantage (blocked a decently big attack, interrupted your opponent with an attack, etc…).
• Do Guaranteed Attacks on Block.
• Close the distance once in awhile, but don’t be obvious.
• Mix things up.

Playing chicken is valid in VF and with proper knowledge, it’s a style of play that can really derail the abare-style player. But it’s not full-proof against abare play either. If your chicken play is predictable, you’ll eat long ranged attacks or eventually get cornered. And when you are cornered, you have to play solid.

Most of the other techniques and situations in the rest of this post deal with understanding abare situations, and countering them directly, head-on (or knowing why sometimes you shouldn’t).

DILEMMA: IS IT REALLY ABARE?
There are situations where the attacking player isn’t really fighting from a disadvantage despite how things look.

The perfect example of this is your (Yanging’s) Kage after the opponent blocks uf+K+G. This is a neutral situation that looks like Kage is in disadvantage. Therefore it’s always tempting for the opponent to attack right away (and with it being a neutral situation, it really is both player’s right to do anything here), and your Kage likes to do a low P here because it’ll hit if the opponent does an attack that isn’t low P.

Lei Fei has setups in his game like this. PP being one of the most popular (stance switch and +1 advantage on block). Sometimes the situation is frame-neutral. But there are also times where Lei Fei really is in a small disadvantage except… he has created a special range between himself and his opponent that might be just outside of low punch/high punch/elbow range.

You have to be careful of these situations and figure them out. My response varies. I do like to attack directly and find the attack that works here. I’ve succeeded many times, but I’ve also fallen victim many times. When my head is cooler, I actually prefer to use these situations to zone the opponent, see if they will commit to abare and try to punish them for doing that.

In a lot of situations, I advocate what I said in the Chicken section: “If they push, you pull.”

Unless your opponent really set you up on accident (unlikely if he’s using the setup with any regularity), HE IS SO COUNTING ON YOU FALLING INTO THE TRAP. By pulling (creating space - ie. backdashing), it’s very likely that you’ll make his setup backfire and you’ll be able to react and punish. And if he catches on and backs off his plans, oh well, it’s a neutral situation and you didn’t get hurt

But recognizing when these situations occur and adjusting right away is a big part of neutralizing abare or at least, situations that “look like abare.”

EXTENDING YOUR MOVE KNOWLEDGE: SABAKI & LIMBS
Sabaki attacks were made for Abare style play and it’s good to know what sabaki attacks your opponent has. And if you don’t know which ones they have, at the very least you can try to understand which of your attacks are getting sabaki’d.

There are two key aspects regarding the sabaki of a sabaki attack.

1. Sabaki Frames - When the attack sabakis is not the same across the board, it’s very specific to the sabaki attack itself. Some sabaki attacks have a fairly big window for sabaki (Shun’s BT Sou P+K is a good example). Some of them only sabaki late in the attack and some sabaki only at the beginning. The size of the sabaki window varies from the attack too.

2. Limbs Sabaki’d - Sabaki attacks are not directed at the hit-type (high/mid/low) nor does it judge between punch and kick. Sabaki’s target a specific limbs, how many, and what attack level. Here’s a breakdown of the different types possible:
   -Head
   -Single Fist (low, mid, or high)
   -Double Fist (low, mid, or high)
   -Elbow (mid, or high)
   -Single Foot (low, mid, or high)
   -Double Feet
   -Knee (low, mid, or high)

Which of these attributes gets sabaki’d is entirely up to the attack itself. For example, Lion’s qcb+P sabakis all of the following things:
-Knees (mid or high)
-Single Foot High (aka High Kick)
-Sidekick
-Single Foot Mid (aka mid kick–does not include spin kicks)
-Single Fist High (aka High Punch)

It is obvious that Lion’s Sabaki does not handle low attacks, but notice that it does not cover any type of elbow, or a mid-level fist attack.

If you know this, don’t overthink it or overapply it. You shouldn’t cut high punch, sidekick, or knee out of your game just because you know Lion has this sabaki. You should let your opponent’s gameplay tell you whether he’ll use the sabaki or not and in which situations you’ll lkely fall for it. You should definitely adjust as the match goes on or your experience with the player goes on, but you don’t have to nerf your character just because of threats on paper. Your opponent is the threat, not the movelist.

Given your experience with me, you’ll notice that like 80-90% of the times I do successfully hit you or Ray with Lion’s sabaki, it was in reverse-okizeme. It was me betting that you will try to hit me with a mid kick right after I tech roll or quick rise. I don’t do this all the time, which is why it probably surprises you guys and I pride myself on my “instnct” for when to bring out the sabaki. But it’s also partly that a lot of the best okizeme attacks aren’t that fast and you can kind of see them coming if you are looking for them. And if anyone plays as Jeffry, I’m always looking for that knee of his.

To bring this back to abare, sabaki is one of the weapons of choice for abare style play. It’s made for it, it’s made to overlap a unique set of the opponent’s attacks that’s much harder to generalize. It narrows the opponent’s game.

I’ve just given you the secret to my Lion’s Sabaki (what it does and when I actually use it most). Against Ray’s Vanessa, because the matches we’ve all had proves Ray will use the sabaki when his mindset is a certain way in the match (there are phases when he just won’t sabaki much, and moments when he realizes it’s a good toolset for the current series of skirmishes and start using them a bit more often), you will want to research Vanessa’s sabaki attacks–know which of her stances she has to be in to use them and what they sabaki–and when the time comes, be prepared to make those adjustments to your game (like using knees or mid kicks in close exchanges).

At intermediate and higher level play, cutting off the sabakis once you know they’re likely to get used is a great way to slowdown your opponent’s comfort with abare.

[System_1]

Good stuff as usual Nick. Brings back my fond memories of those Stiltman novels.

[Chanchai]

Good stuff as usual Nick. Brings back my fond memories of those Stiltman novels.

I hope that’s a good thing I didn’t read Stiltman’s stuff so I’m not sure how to take that lol

But Eric was a pretty cool guy I just never played Marvel much beyond casual.

As a side note: Shun and Jacky are both characters that GREATLY BENEFIT from learning how to play a Chicken Style.

Jacky benefits from chicken style because he’s more of a mid-range striker/poker anyhow, so zoning is in his game and learning how to chicken only increases his ability to zone.

Shun benefits because, imo, his ideal playing style is chicken. He’s just so good at getting out of the way, causing the opponent to whiff, and capitalizing on mistakes. When he plays up close, his game has some good damage options but it’s pretty risky if you want any reward. But I’ll write more about Shun in the next semi-big post that will conclude this series on anti-abare.

[R_Panda]

Amazing write ups, Chanchai. Keep doin’ what your doin’ and I’ll keep learning.

[Chanchai]

Some Possibly Good News:

There’s a chance that my friend T^5 from Thailand might be visiting Portland soon. He’s a very strong VF player (imo, I consider him stronger than myself once the rust wears off) as well as a very strong Tekken player.

Currently, he is studying in Boston. He made his mark in the U.S. Tekken scene back during the Tekken Tag days with notable performances in tournaments. At that time, he was studying in St. Louis and he’s been a strong VF player since Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution. We’ve known each other since VF4 and occasionally met up in Thailand.

Anyways, he might be making a Northwest trip and I’m hoping he does! Two days of VF always brings out the best in me the way that sessions in California and New York does.

He’s dangerous because he will watch how you play and figure you out and he plays very, very solid.

If he decides to visit, it’ll be late August or early September.

-Chanchai

[Chanchai]

That’s right, I’m resurrecting this thread!

It’s great to see that there continues to be more VF players in the Northwest. Some that come out of lurking, some that have moved in the area, and some people who just caught the VF bug after some sessions.

Good stuff! It’s been keeping Portland VF alive!

In Portland, our more regular group is Rayblade, Yangsing, OMNE, R_Panda, Pasqual, Mackinzie, Taziri, Hi3n, and now we have Jannon!

We also still have some of the other players like Shinryujin, TheUnkanny, and I am looking forward to meeting Ilthuain! And I’m sure I can drag Andrew back into it eventually–the dude got so good at VF!

And in Seattle I know there are guys still down with playing so maybe we should get something going again. And everyone knows they have a great talent pool as well!

In any case, the VF never really died in Portland and Rayblade even went to NY for VF which is always awesome. We also almost always play VF at the Thursday Night Fights at my store, Versis.

So I’m gonna keep the conversation alive (and also hope a Final Tuned with home port gets announced)!

Northwest VF is back!

[slash5150]

I should probably play some more VF eh? Haha, been practicing me quite a bit of SF4. so I think I might mix the grind up a bit.

And where is Ray with his NYC report?

[system]

I actually like VF5 more than SFIV, it’s just that I like competition so I play SFIV and barely ever VF. :sad:

Honestly, fighting game wise no experience I have ever had is like when I won some games in VF when I felt like I actually WAS my character, just flowing with what needed to be done…it’s hard to describe but VF is a much different game than all other fighters. Amazingly well thought out unlike a lot of SF games that seem like lucky accidents.

Wish VF5R was on xbox. :sad:

[Yangsing]

I don’t like vf

[Chanchai]

Yangsing, that’s just your sense of humor kicking in or a phase

[Chanchai]

Random Note:

EXCITED TO SEE THAT ITAZAN’S (ITABASHI ZANGIEF) TEAM WON THE 11th BEAT TRIBE CUP TOURNAMENT IN JAPAN!

Decided to post it here because Itazan stayed in the Northwest (Seattle area) for awhile and was almost a month-long Oregonian Great friends with our good man Yosuke. And of course he won Evo 2007 for VF5

Go Itazan!

Thread at VFDC

Some videos can be found at Ogikage’s YouTube Channel

[Chanchai]

Translated Arcade Article on Changes to VF5 FS Mechanics

It’s crazy seeing how much of an overhaul Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown is. I think the net effect is really good, but it’s interesting to see how they’ve adjusted the mindgames. There are lots of mindgames, but they did take away some execution barriers. They’ve also adjusted the risk-rewards greatly.

In a way, for me it feels like this is Virtua Fighter 5 overhauled with some design aspects of Virtua Fighter 3.

In any case, VF5 FS looks amazing to me

It’s going to be weird playing VF without Evade Triple Throw Escape though, hehe.

[Chanchai]

Damn… almost exactly one year later…

I had an awesome time at PAX, in no small part because of Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown being featured at Gameworks over the weekend and set to free play!

It was awesome meeting more of the Seattle/Vancouver players who are also VFDC lurkers and know their VF. And as always, it was just awesome playing VF with people in general! I finally met Zas/Julien and our matches were a lot of fun and I’m looking forward to more!

Anyways, I’ll post some links of some of the action that happened over the weekend and then I’ll put up my personal reports on playing at the events so you guys can have my take. Hope you enjoy reading it! Or at least watching it!

The iPlayWinner Livestream event on Friday Night (I play from 2:45 - 58:00 and 1:41:00 - End)

Some matches I had on Sunday I think it was.

Some matches Zas had on Sunday.

On to the reports!

---

I do want to write a Day One Report but I need to sleep so I’ll just put up some quick responses for now

• I had a blast! (I even gave up my PAX Day One just for VF5 FS! Many times I intended to go back to the convention hall and many times I just ended up staying at Gameworks and chatting/playing VF!)

• Manjimaru’s questions were hand delivered (via my phone) the Sega team that was there a couple of hours before the livestream (also, the staff was great!) For all the questions that came after, I was unable to see them because as PAX population peaked, AT&T Internet completely crumbled for most of the day. I had very nice conversations with the Sega team there and I look forward to sharing what I can remember in the next post! But I think Syzygy repeated much of it on the stream.

• Ash, at 20 wins I decided it was time to open up the livestream cabinet and encourage more matchups so I passed the torch at that point (well, you can see me abandon the cabinet in the background of the interview). Looking back at it, I guess I totally forgot that the livestream is, after all, “iplaywinner” But I really want as many people to enjoy VF as much as they can and a part of me was wondering if people were sick of watching me play Lion.

• Myke, thanks ^_^! Wish you were there too!

• I’m looking forward to sharing the experience in more detail

[Chanchai]

Looks like I’m unable to manage my time for fully loaded reports, but here goes my attempt at writing what I can on the Day One Experience:

ADAPTING TO FS
It’s not easy, but I admit I probably get to play with one of the few characters who is quick to adjust from game to game. Going from VF5 to VF5 FS is more challenging than the usual adjusting to a new expansion imo. It’s almost similar to going from VF4 to VF5, but it really isn’t too drastic.

I think once a VF veteran has the game to him or herself, it should take a little less than a week to really break into it. I felt I adjusted a lot in one day, but the mechanical changes take a lot of willpower to manage if you are a player with more habits than you care to admit (which would be a whole lot of me).

Here are the things that hung me up, though they make very pleasant challenges:

• The throw system itself is something that should be quick to adjust to with regards to high throws and high throw escapes. However, my old multiple throw escape habits (sloppy inconsistent ones at that to be honest) got furthermore in my way as the order I did them in the past just doesn’t play out well with the new system–it ensures I do one particular throw escape and not the one I’m really guessing for. That said, I think it’s an easier adjustment than most imagine.

• Low Throws is what gets everyone! If you use a character with low throws, you will probably get frustrated for half a week when you keep accidentally doing low throws. It was clear all the Goh, Wolf, Jeffry players had it rough with this and their brains were harder than they thought to rewire. On top of that, TONS OF ACCIDENTAL LOW THROW SPAMMING because throw heavy characters traditionally had a lot of throws with a diagonal+P+G input. But this isn’t just for characters with low throws! It’s very awkward telling yourself not to do low throw escapes without pressing K! Sometimes I would just overuse bad low attacks in my matches just to practice inputting the new low throw escapes and still I cought myself pressing K! I think the Low Throws were the hardest thing to deal with in adjusting to the new game.

• The window for entering a pounce is really small now it seems. So many times I get a hopping straight up punch. You can see it in the stream clearly when I’m trying for a pounce and I get that straight up hop punch. But I have to admit, it mostly happens in non-guaranteed pounce situations.

• Adjusting to the altered movelist is just like adjusting between iterations of games–your mileage varies based on you and your character. Lion is easy because well, his core game uses similar commands and I think everyone will admit that the change to his uppercut and elbow are drastic improvements in his game so they’re taken willingly. However, I was surprised that I wasn’t 100% consistent with QCF+button moves. Lion has QCF+P and QCF+P+K and I just wasn’t consistent much with them despite being very consistent with Shun’s Chouwan and what not. But the challenge of adjusting to an altered movelist is the usual–the new commands and also the change in move properties. Notice how I just cannot properly followup combos that use b+K, P with Lion because it slams opponents into the ground.

• It would be great to be able to watch Videos between every 3 or 4 matches! Did not have that luxury, internet is dead during peak time.

PLAYING ON THE STREAM
It was really fun playing on the stream. I had a streak on the other machine just before the stream started and abandoned that machine to play on the streamed machine and it was fun. The thing is, this is still a debut of a game and a way for a lot of people to satisfy their VF curiosity and what not–so a streak wasn’t really anything I was aiming for–I wanted to let people have fun matches. But I still felt I had to play a good amount of serious VF also since this is a livestream aimed at the fighting community. Tricky balance.

We did have some good VF vets that were available during the stream and we also had experienced players from other fighting games who do play some VF (ie. Afro-Cole)… but here’s the kicker… We also had a handful of very experienced VF players who were playing on Saturday that all had to leave at 6pm because of prior commitments and work! It was really a pity too because it was so fun to have a Chicago representative, a couple of Seattle natives who lurk on VFDC but play a good game and have even had great experience playing VF4:FT in Japan, and even a couple of more players on top of that. There was also a very nice couple who have played VF in Japan as well and do play VF with each other and were a blast to play with! And there were some more Seattle VF fans too.

It was unfortunate that they all couldn’t stay but I had to let you guys know that while VF5 wasn’t insanely packed or anything, there was a decent serious VF showing on Friday on top of what you saw.

BTW, Hans is it from iplaywinner? I really enjoyed playing against him too and he really seems to like his VF and does enjoy playing in Japan as well!

ABRUPT WRAPUP
Unfortunately I have to go now (back to PAX and of course to more VF), and I have a lot more to say just about Friday including sincere thanks to players, more about the Sega staff, and probably some small pieces of information to the VF in America puzzle. I hope I can post those and the shoutouts soon, but it’s convention time!

Thanks for reading and wishing ALL OF YOU GUYS were here too–I really do!

Chanchai

P.S. The Aoi in the last two or so matches of the stream are me

[Chanchai]

MORE THOUGHTS ON FS @ PAX 2011 (Chanchai’s report parts 2 & 3 – covering day 1 and 2)
Day 2 is over (and I’m writing this on the dawn of Day 3), and it was incredibly fun! However, I am going to backtrack and get in some more words about Day 1 first!

Day 1: Talking to Sega Reps
It was wonderful talking to the Sega reps, especially Syzygy, but honestly everyone was a pleasure to speak with and everyone offered insight of some level regarding the game and the marketing push. Here is a listing of a lot of what was discussed (much of it has already been covered on the livestream):

• Sega is well aware that everyone wants something close to (and hopefully surpassing) the amazing tutorial/training/trial mode of VF4 Evolution.

–I included my personal experiences with the evo training mode as taking almost sole credit in making Virtua Fighter encouraging and accessible to a lot of players of other fighting games. I explained that the level of detail in the tutorials and especially giving the player true ways of practicing intermediate and advanced concepts of the game and understanding basic options was completely effective in getting Tekken, Street Fighter, etc… players to go “I can do this, I can get good at Virtua Fighter and this game is making more sense.”

– While the awesome Evo tutorial is wonderful for everyone, it was really effective at getting the fighting game fans to make truly serious efforts at VF and better appreciate the game’s Quest mode and vs. mode. In today’s context, bringing this type of training mode back (with all the features) can really help make VF far more appealing to the players of Street Fighter IV, Mortal Kombat 9, Tekken 6, Marvel vs. Capcom 3, Soul Calibur (understand it’s still a casual favorite as a series), etc…

–I also said that Street Fighter IV’s training package (including trials) is something to look at as well. In my mind, this is in addition to a VF4 Evo style training package. Not instead but I did not clarify that in the dialogue.

• They really can’t say much about the DLC. I told Syzygy that I do like DLC, but whenever the topic comes up most of us have a “caution light” that just goes on fire in our brains. In general, we’re worried about getting screwed and we don’t want to feel that we’re getting screwed on the initial investment (buying the game).

• “Why 1 full year, ie, why next summer?” A: Despite limited resources, like all things, Sega does want this game to succeed and that requires a marketing campaign. They are really working hard on it, and there is a lot of information (and awesome features) that will be rolled out over time. Sega would like to please us hardcore fans, but they truly want VF to succeed in great numbers.

– I noted that the schedule means VF won’t make a showing at Evo in 2012 (side tourney at best which livestream viewers saw how much of KoF XIII?). I’m okay with that, because I’m accepting it should be a 2013 plan anyways for a second/third wave of interest.

– Sega is really looking at what has been working and not working with other fighting games in our markets.

• VF5 for PS3 and 360 (the more important point here) did horrible. My impression of the discussion is that even with expectations already managed at Sega, the game failed to come close to its target numbers.

• I heard that the biggest reason PS3 VF5 was never patched for engine updates, online, or anything was because the infrastructure was never put in place in that game make it possible in that game. (I’m guessing aside from redesigning the game and making you download a whole new game as a “patch”). This answer implies that FS will be updateable.

• The new single player mode isn’t Quest mode, but Sega seems very excited about what it is. They can’t say anything more at this time, but it sounds like unveiling it will be a big part of its campaign. To Manjimaru: “completely new mode.”

• I’m under the impression that the resources for promoting FS is not as high as we would like, but the teams are really working their asses off at managing it to be effective and they know more than anyone else that it’s a big challenge because they want this to be more successful than previous VF releases (meaning they really gotta push the marketing to make this game more attractive to EVERYBODY).

– I interpret this as implying that strategies that just target us, the people who play VF, is nowhere near enough. That said, targeting other fighting game players is probably still a good priority, but they really do want to make this game a mainstream success.

• Hardware (ie. Virtua Stick High Grade) isn’t a consideration. I personally think this is sensible.

• I commented that good (or “good enough” if you’re looking at something like SF4 imo) online play is essential in avoiding a nail in the coffin for the game’s long term standing.

– I mentioned that I personally am very happy with VF5’s netcode, but casuals sometimes had a different impression… I felt it was because VF5 online plays quite well if you understand how to play VF (and the better player almost always wins online imo). However, if you are a beginner, you might feel the lag effects in different ways. That said, I don’t want to change FS online if it will no longer play like VF online. I’m happy, would like it to keep improving, don’t want it to get worse to make it appealing.

– I commented that VF5 Online was great, but beginners had a good chance of getting destroyed by experienced players. I would like really good matchmaking. The good counterpoint that was made to me and I do fully appreciate is that good matchmaking is really only possible when you have a good critical mass. I fully agree and understand. This does not mean they won’t pursue it, but it implies they have to be reasonable and forward thinking about the realities of who and how many will be playing this game.

• Something to think about, a sub-theme I was feeling out in our conversations was “community.” I don’t mean VFDC community here, but… it was as if the following question is always in Sega’s minds regarding VF: “How do we get this game to sustain a more mainstream like community” or “How do we make sure people keep enjoying this game with their friends.” It was never explicitly stated but that was what I felt.

• Some features are easy to ask for, look easy to implement on paper–but reality is far different. Don’t get too discouraged, but it’s a fact to consider (especially for us who are VF lovers and want it to be the perfect package). That said, I do think as a community, it is our job to project a more perfect vision of what we want. But I do hope we also appreciate truly good products, even when they are not perfect.

• Sega does read VFDC. Heck, I forgot where Manjimaru was from and it was Syzygy who told me

– They also understand our feelings and frustrations. They really do. Though it’s true that sometimes, some of us cross a line (but it’s not like that’s going to affect rational product decisions).

• While nobody can say how long this project has really been going on… A number that I’ve heard is that at least with some of the team, they’ve been aware of VF5 FS coming to console for around 1 year now.

– It was also implied that our petition, was definitely accepted as a great gesture (it was also the right way of appealing to them) and probably influential. At the very least, it was truly appreciated.

– No comments regarding other forms of our mass demanding.

– Again, Sega does read VFDC.

• They are very surprised when we ask for the option to have VF5R. From the response, I am pretty sure it’s not going to happen at all (it was almost flat out denied).

– I explained that it’s something we want because we would like all that we can get of VF. There’s also a collector’s sentiment in it. But also because VF5R seems to be the favorite of the VF5s among a good portion of VF players who have played R and FS. And that there is an impression in the community that VF5R is the ultimate hardcore VF5 where FS is more of a mainstream product.

– Consider this feature not happening.

• Bringing the FS cabinet to the US and making it playable outside of Japan was no easy or inexpensive feat. It was expensive, it took a lot of time, and that machine is a BIG investment for the PR/Marketing team.

– Treat the thing with care, Sega has to have a rep watching that machine at all times when it’s being played. They cannot leave it to a third party to look after it (consider this if you want it at an event).

– They are very sensitive to people putting drinks or other things on top of the machine. My impression is, if something bad happens to the FS Arcade Cabinet, it’s really going to suck for a lot of people.

– Because the FS Cabinet is a very important piece of marketing the game, it seems like they did not announce FS for console until it was ready. Again, they really want this game to be marketed properly.

– I think you can also take this to mean that the game is going to make appearances at quite a few proper events.

• On Day Two I commented to a rep that I was also grateful they brought the Yakuza series to the US. A lot of people on the team are also grateful because they love the games at the office.

• One of the reps thought LA Akira and Akira Love (Spotlite) were the same guy I clarified that

• Final note: I wish I was able to play with more of the team but they do want us all to be enjoying the game. Some of them definitely know enough of what they’re doing in the game–last night I played someone who clearly played VF4 era Kage and I am guessing very very well with VF4 era Kage.

Looks like this section was way bigger than I expected and the rest of my report will have to be on another post and possibly another time…

Teaser: I had an awesome time playing VF5:FS at the Sega Party on Saturday night!
Power level rose at the Sega Party, the VF vets started to maximize damage! And there was much forum (jpn and vfdc) browsing on smartphones between rounds among some players!

Also… most embarassing moment–one of my streaks ended when I ran (literally) into shoryuken Jacky flipkicks (flash kicks?) twice in a deciding round and realizied “I ONLY HAVE 1/3 OF MY LIFE LEFT?!”

[Chanchai]

Looking back at The Sega Party & Shoutouts
It’s been a few days now and I’m still very grateful for the times I had on the VF5 FS machine and talking with others who are excited for FS coming to consoles.
My intention is this post will mostly be about the shoutouts.

Saturday Night Fever
Even though Friday was an awesome (arguably the best) day for FS’ debut outside of Japan–thanks to iPlayWinner’s livestream–Saturday also turned out to be freakin’ sweet.
It didn’t start out that way as the FS machine took a few hours to hit its stride, but it did get there. I spent the hours from 11am-1pm exploring PAX and enjoying it, but I was longing for VF so I went back to the VF5 machine at 1:30pm.

I had lunch at Gameworks, but they were busy and service was slow (and they don’t serve around the machines) so I didn’t really start playing until 2:30pm.

At this point the machines were only swarmed with say… 4 or 5 people. But this did start to build because by 3:30pm there was a decent crowd of people which included some VF vets. I knew that Sega was having a party and that there was limited capacity. They would close Gameworks at 5pm and start the party at 6pm. People told me to get in line early (4pm) so I stopped VF to give up on the 1 hour remaining of gaming so I could make sure I was in the party for more hours of it!

Well… in the end, it was worth it and yet not necessary. While Gameworks was full, it seems like just about everyone who wanted in by 6pm got in. But in my case, I was one of the few who actually got dinner (apparently they prepared less food than intended).
The Sega Party was great and you can find out all about it with Gamespot’s coverage. Free food, free drinks, free games, and more VF!

And the VF5:FS machine ended up having a good long line for it and a crowd to appreciate the action that was happening. I got a few good streaks in. Starting with 9, then a 10 streak, and then at the end of the night I had a 24 win streak that got cutoff when the machine was shutdown.

Sunday
Sunday was a very nice way to wrapup the VF action for me. Like Saturday, I spent around 2 hours finishing my business at PAX and enjoying it and then proceeding to enjoy VF. And it was a very rewarding day for VF in a different way than Friday and Saturday.
Sunday was like being at a VF Gathering, and I love VF Gatherings

I spent quite a bit of time working on Jean with dkn29 (a Seattle player who I had met Friday and played against the most over the weekend–a great guy). I worked on some bread and butter (thanks to dkn29 doing research and practicing) like Jean’s f+K --> P(G) --> df+K+G --> dash --> b+K,K,P. It took me a long time, but I got used to it after awhile.

Jean is very fun to play, though he reminds me a bit of Tekken (then again, I think I always say a new character reminds me of Tekken…). My first natural instinct with him is to play him as a zoning character until I get comfortable with poking. I never fully got used to up-close poke exchanges, but I knew I had something nice if I could land the f+K knee. The biggest challenge, something I did not get used to, was maximizing damage off of his df+P+K. We were trying to use OM --> P(G) --> combos off of that.

I also spent some time with Taka but it was still ugly. It was fun, but it was ugly and there isn’t much I can say here that would be of value to anyone. Something weird with Taka was the properties of his b+P+K+G reversal. If someone mashes PPP into it, he shuts them down. If they do PK, he gets hit. If they do something like P… delay… P, he still gets hit. It’s just weird and I’m confused by it. Then again, I have not read up on it, even still. I think the person I was training in Taka with was “The Xaiax” a very nice gentleman from the Bay Area.

One of the people I was really hoping to see on Sunday was Haunts, and sure enough he arrived and he was in Goh training mode. He really wanted to get a better feel for FS Goh and you could see it in his eyes since Friday night. On Sunday he was practicing while constantly browsing VFDC Goh boards with his smartphone. We also had some very fun matches on Sunday.

I also had some wonderful matches with Zero-Chan. She was steadily getting more comfortable with Vanessa and always dangerous. Vanessa has always been a character that can drive Lion crazy. I think it was even Fuudo who mentioned this in an interview before and even referenced Vanessa’s sidekick as one of those super annoying things. The tension in the matches was always there, because Zero-Chan was one of the few people who could maximize damage well at PAX–even if she wasn’t 100% feeling FS Vanessa. You just knew that a mistake against her was going to cost you horribly and Zero seems to run very well with a lead in health. Fighting against Zero’s Vanessa, I felt it was more psychological than anything else–I would either have to play it safe and smart (well, as smart as I can, which is not the smartest) or I would play very mean “hard-nitaku” games of knockdown lows (sweeps), punishing mids, and aggressive okizeme. In this case, I would only really go for throws once I knew I got her in a defensive mindset. But honestly, I prefer much more space and safety against Vanessa, I just really hate it whenever things go wrong against her.

I also finally had a formal introduction and meeting with Zas! Zas is one of Seattle’s more dedicated VF players and I had been hoping to meet him for a long time. I had mixed him up with other players before because he shares a name with another player. Zas’ Wolf was quite strong and I really enjoyed our matches! Along with Haunts and Zero-Chan, he was another player who was having his streaks and showing the crowds how VF is played. On Saturday night, while we were streaking on opposite machines, a couple of players said they wanted to see us fight each other. On Sunday, we got to set aside a few matches and it was a blast.

Finally, there was a person I had been wanting to play against all weekend–someone who didn’t play much, but I saw play a couple of times and I did want to challenge them. Apparently, this person’s entourage also wanted to see us play each other too And that was Syzygy. Syzygy is super friendly, and he was more open than I imagined he would be given his role at Sega. And on Friday, before the livestream, I saw him play a couple matches and I knew the guy knew how to play VF. And even just on a friendly level, I sincerely wanted to have some matches with him.

Because I’m the kind of person who is long-winded and takes forever to make an exit… I postponed my scheduled dinner appointment and hung around gameworks long enough to catch Syzygy as he got back. His staff seemed eager for us to play and I wanted to have a 3 match series with him.

It was a lot of fun and actually, probably the most intense match of the whole weekend for me. I don’t think I have a full read (up or down) on his ability in the game, but fighting his Shun was very stressful and while I felt I earned the 2 out of the 3 matches… I really couldn’t tell you if he held back or not.

He was playing quite safe, very solid, and his reaction time was definitely the fastest at PAX. I’m not saying it’s top of USA level or anything, but he reacted to things so well that I could not play on Auto Pilot at all in our matches. I had to shorten up my Lion game to the core repertoire of fast and effective attacks and cut out almost all BS or fun stuff. I was forced to play safe, I was forced to play like it was a gathering or a tournament. It definitely kicked some adrenaline into me and I enjoyed that.

Did I win because I adjusted my game well and fought it out well? I would like to think so. But the other thoughts that lingered in my head included wondering if he was not punishing me for some of the reckless things I was doing (like f+PP even when it’s not hitting) because either he wasn’t reacting that way or maybe he was voluntarily not punishing me in certain cases.

I’m not questioning him or his integrity though, but thoughts like that were going in my head as we fought and those 3 matches did a lot to make my weekend. I’m not saying he’s Adnan or anything like that either. But I am saying my adrenaline shot up in our match, it was very fun, and I was stressed for what skill he did show me while we were playing. So Syzygy, thank you! I really enjoyed our matches and it was the best sendoff I could have had until the next time I get to play Final Showdown!

Direct Shoutouts
I couldn’t get everyone’s name down because my phone died often (PAX Tip! Turn off 3G and consider turning off all Push Notifications if you are on an iPhone when going to PAX. The constant pinging on an overloaded 3G network drains your battery at rapid speed!).

But it was truly a gift chatting and playing with everyone I did chat and play with during PAX. It’s wonderful to see people trying VF for the first time since VF2 or because they’ve always loved the series. It’s also wonderful meeting both VFDC regulars and lurkers!

dkn29 - Dustin, you’re the man! Great times playing against your Jean and also engaging in Jean mirror matches. We’ll be fighting each other more in the future for sure and I’m glad you were able to work out Saturday and Sunday!

Rez2Cool & Debuggirl - Albert and debuggirl, you were both awesome to meet on Friday. Great writeups on PAX from both of you. Albert, while I was embarassed to get Shoryuken’d by your Jacky’s kickflips, it was also an honor because you are such a great guy! Also, Debuggirl’s Lau is very nice, keep it up! Checkout Rez2Cool’s blogspot & Debuggirl’s Wordpress!

Zarkinsky - Great to meet you man! It was awesome playing with you and your VF pals and I can’t wait to fight you again soon! I wish you guys could have all stayed on Friday for the livestream as you guys are all skilled and it was very fun times! Keep in touch!

Josh from Chicago - It was also an honor to meet you. It was good talking about the old Chicago seen (shoutout to Shota, wish I had met Harold!) and I’m looking forward to more matches with you! Great games!

Douglas Maxwell - We’ll be fighting soon I hope! Or at least as soon as FS comes out. Great games!

A.J. - Good games and totally dig your style and humor man. Carry that swagger!

Ray Squared - Great guy, I’ll see you on Live!

Corranwolf - Wish we had more time to fight man, but I have a feeling we will at least online

The Xaiax - Get in touch with Renzo and see if you guys can get Sega to do some Bay Area events with iplaywinner and other events to help promote this great game. Your Jeffry is tough and I look forward to seeing your Taka once this game goes online!

Zero-Chan - Your presence is always felt in this community and the gaming community in general! Keep it up and it is always wonderful to see you! Also thanks for the one “Meep!” for old time’s sake too! It’s also great fighting your Vanessa, I mean it when I say it’s stressful! You knocked me around pretty bad a few times! Also, thanks for bringing your FS Guide and being extremely generous in letting anyone read it!

Haunts - The community has thanked you a lot and so have I, but we really are grateful to have your support and IPW’s support for VF. You guys put in a lot of time and work and the results are awesome. Keep it up! Also, again, your Goh was one of my favorite opponents over the weekend–looking forward to more matches in the future!

Hellsap - Thanks for not letting me be alone in representing Portland! Also thanks for representing Portland KOF also! Really did make my day seeing you on Saturday man! I’m guessing that one of the big upsides at PAX is that unlike Evo, people don’t mix you up with Sirlin

Sega QA Guy - I’m so sorry I forgot your name… The one who plays Kage link here in what I call a VF4 style. Good chats, great match, again–thanks for everything all of you guys are doing with VF5:FS. We’re all rooting for you, let us know what our community can do!

Femto - Of course I can’t let this end without mentioning Femto! Always good to see your El Blaze, very nice meeting your girl too! And great matches, man! Also, huge grats on the big 17 win streak on Friday night! You’ve been a big Seattle VF Constant the past few years and I hope that does not change! We’ll have to organize some sessions sometimes.

I’ve left out a lot of people, but everyone has been a pleasure to meet and/or play with.

Thank you all!

[zass]

Hey I just wanted to post and reply to this. It was really great playing VF5:FS at PAX, and Chanchai was an absolute beast. He is being very very modest in his writeup, he was easily the best player at PAX and I would say outclassed everyone by a significant distance.

I was very inspired to get back into VF. I like the new throw system, I’m glad that spamming throw escapes is gone now. Of course a lot of Wolf’s “easy damage” is gone – no more low crumple into low throw for 80% damage (and screams of BULLLLSHIIIIT in the background). Also no more of that cheap dm+pk for wolf.

I’m having a VF5 gathering at my place tonight. Femto, Cole, and Clayton will be there. If you’re into VF and want to join us post here. I am eager to revive the VF scene in the NW, I think we have some of the best players to learn from like Chanchai, and if we can channel our strong playerbase I think we can combine portland + seattle and be one of the top spots in the US!

Chanchai it was great to meet you and your level of play has inspired me to get better. I hope we can play some more online and I hope to perhaps recieve one of your great writeups. I saw how strong you were with fundamentals at PAX. I think as you say earlier in the thread the fundamentals are so very important, it’s easy to get carried away with extra stuff.

[Chanchai]

Hey Zass, thanks for the kind words!

And I’m really happy to hear you had a VF get-together! I lost my copy of VF5 awhile back (I’m starting to think I lent it to somebody and forgot!) so I’ll probably go buy another copy soon because I’m itching to play! Especially after last week!

While I will miss inputting multiple throw escapes, I do think restricting the throw escapes and turning the throw escape game into a 3-way guess is overall a good thing. The depth of options is still overall the same, just less convoluted.

The change to throw escapes is also backed by taking away clashes and 0-frame throws and AM2 making the throws faster than high punches like they were prior to VF5. Pretty much the first 3 things in one of my “Abare” threads (above) were written off the VF system in Final Showdown hehe.

A few general tips to people about throws and throw escapes are the following:

• You should not try to throw your opponent unless he shows you he can block.
  –You should not assume your opponent will block for no reason, you really need to realize your opponent is blocking your mid attacks before throwing is really an option.
  –Do not try to throw against mashers unless you create throw guaranteed situations (you block their combo launcher or you interrupt/yellow-flash them with a single high punch and throw them right away).
  –When your opponent starts blocking things, that’s when you give them respect and that’s when you know throwing is now an option.

• You really do not need to plug in throw escapes unless you are in a situation where your opponent has a guaranteed throw (he blocks your combo launcher or he interrupts you with something like a single high punch).

• If you are committing yourself to doing a reversal (aka “counter attack”), it doesn’t hurt to quickly plugin a throw escape as part of doing the reversal. However, I generally recommend against doing reversals in general–they are actually high risk with very low reward.

• Whenever a throw is not guaranteed for your opponent (like he just hit you normally, but not a counter hit), in Final Showdown it is interrupted by pretty much any attack. In VF5 you had to worry about clashes if you wanted to punish someone in this situation and YOU KNEW he was going to throw. In Final Showdown, if you are in this situation and YOU KNOW he is going to try to throw you when it is not guaranteed, you can go for your combo launcher. If you’re not that sure your opponent is going for a throw in this situation–but you think he will–you can poke him to stop the throw. In fact, if you have mad reflexes you can hit punch when you see a throw execution and the throw is not guaranteed.

Hope those tips help out!

[Chanchai]

I just re-bought VF5 for 360 (my current disc has been lost for a few months, maybe I loaned it to somebody). After the 15th, I should be available to play online matches or try to schedule times if anyone would like to play online

I am trying to get used to playing online again. I’ve done it before, so I know it’s not so bad (in fact, I like VF5’s netcode very much). Just have to train myself to buffer things quite a bit earlier than normal and in some cases, make stronger predictions or be a bit more random earlier in a nitaku situation. Again, I’ve been there before, I think I can be there again (and get better).

Had a great time playing against some people like Mackfactor tonight!

[Chanchai]

Today I’m just going to repost a classic “article” by Yosuke. This was written after EVO 2k7 and it reflects on what it took for Yosuke to get to the level he achieved in Virtua Fighter 4: Final Tuned (among the top class of players in Japan). I’m not advocating everyone here dedicate their time this way–just fully appreciate the commitment and maybe apply it in a smaller way, towards whatever you are passionate about.

No secret I miss Yosuke. Was an awesome honor having him in the Northwest Scene for awhile I think he’s still studying hard in Upstate New York right now.

Original Link: http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/296377#Post296377

well.
I think some of you should know how Japanese players get better.

in my case, when I used to suck, I brought a VF frame book in the restroom and read it. I also read it on the bed 10 minutes before I slept everyday. I imagined a couple of Jacky’s combinations before I slept, and tried them on the next day. this was my daily life without playing VF.

*I gradually orgnized my basics, built my Jacky’s original combinations, and gained my VF knowledge because of my daily work. *

then here is my VF life used to be.
during 1 year just before I was in KS3, I used to play VF4FT 5 to 10 hours usually 4 “weekdays” a week. In the morning, before class, I went to arcades and played a couple of games by myself to check movements and combinations which I imagined at night. After class, I went to arcades to play.

practicing basics is very important to reduce your mistakes. people hardly can see how you practice, but practice won’t be on a stage.

I also dedicated one day of my weekends(saturday or sunday) to play VF4FT. I remember I missed VF4FT only one weekend in 1 year. only one weekend because I went sking… I was on a vacation, but I remember I really wanted to play VF4FT haha. Even though I was not playing, my hands were playing lol

on a few fridays,I played VF from 5 pm to midnight at one arcade, moved to another place and played until 5 or 7 am(depended on days),went back home, slept, woke up at afternoon, and went to tournaments on Saturday. this happened once a month.

…as you can guess, I barely studied and passed my school(hehe), I had 4 hours part-time job 3 times a week to get some money to just play VF, and I played VF4FT most of my time in that 1 year. “MOST THE TIME”

that I got better was not because I am Japanese. if you were thinking so, it’s a part of insult.

*I don’t think anyone here dedicate this much time to play VF. I think Maddy or Rodney played(for Rodney, plays) a lot but still not enough compared to my exercise. Besides, you don’t have to spend it into only VF. VF is one of hobbies in the world. there are a buch of hobbies. If you think 1-hour play once a week is good enough to practice VF, that’s good enough for YOU. there is no one who can complain it. *

However, doing 1-hour practice once a week and complaining the game or opponents whenever you lose does not make sense to ME.
I am not pointing who does it, but there are a few.( guess you may know one of a few hehe)

most of Vf players here are adults, and I don’t think you guys can spend their time just for VF since you have to work. that’s still ok.

you should ask ryan and maddy how they got strong. how they dedicated their time.

if you want to get better, let’s start easy part. bring a frame book and remember your character’s one or two frames of moves and check it on the day. it will help you when you play. you will not get confused as much as you get after doing this daily VF work.

like I said, you don’t have to be hard. content how you practice is much important.

oops it is a long one again. hahahaa

oh by the way… talking of EVO, I think it may have been or may not have been fair. I don’t know. However, I can say that it looked completely unfair. Maddy quit, Rodney and Adam did not come. Therefore, there was no one who could compete with Japanese players. only myke from Australia