i think my 50/50 game has improved, still having difficulties punishing and getting better set ups.
Iâm down in Salem. Sadly I think the chara I use in the game is pretty much screwed when it comes to against people lol
I tried practicing Kageâs 4 hit dp. I can get the first 3 hits of the dp most the time. 4th hit timing seems really strict or my timing is off. Maybe got all four hits 10 times out of 300 attempts or so lol
Shun seems so strange. Itâll take a while to get used to him. A long while.
Hey if you want to practice, Iâll be at the store tonight 
Kageâs DP
Thereâs a slight delay (and by slight, weâre talking miliseconds) in doing Kageâs 4-hit dragonpunch. Fortunately itâs a flash-only move because you canât apply all 4 hits in combos. But itâs such a fun stylish way to use the dragonpunch as a whiff punisher or you block something too huge.
bop, bop, bop, ~~bop!
Itâs tricky, but technically it is something you can see on your CRT TV because without lag, itâs timed with the contact of the third hit.
Shun
Shun is a very different character for VF. Mainly because heâs not meant to go toe-to-toe for a long period of time, but he can whiff punish from long and mid range.
He does a lot of damage when he punishes opponents mistakes, but otherwise his attacks make him very vulnerable when theyâre not properly punishing the opponent. He does have a few quick and safe pokes.
His mid attacks are generally either slow or risky, and this is the core reason why he is not a crazy toe-to-toe fighter. Furthermore, he just doesnât punish crouching opponents too strongly without a little bit more risk or lack of damage.
Therefore the key with him is to learn how to zone with him (which is the tough part of learning him because youâll have to learn a lot of moves and setups and not rely on the general flow of the game as much).
Zoning with Shun isnât cut and dry either. Itâs not simply playing footsie with your opponent. Itâs making use of attacks that push on block (b+P or K+G), using special movement (db+P+K+G is good but donât over use it), cheap knockdowns and running away (db+K,K), drinking when your opponent gets too defensive to force him to attack you, and throwing out safety moves (practice his sabaki df+P, b (right away), P+K.
You will also want to learn how to drink with him. With more drinks come greater power, higher floats, and more moves.
Shun - Early Drinking
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P+G throw gets you drinks.
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f+P+K is a slow attack that slips under high attacks to give you drinks. Donât use this move too much, but you can do u+K+G --> f+P+K for drinking points.
-
Learn to finish your opponents off in the round with moves that drink. This will help speed up your drink rate.
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After you win a round, use the standard df+P, b (right away) --> f+P+K+G --> b+P+K+G --> f+P+K+G, etcâŚ
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P+K+G (single sip) is a good zoning tool. I use it at just barely elbow range because most pokes that arenât a string will whiff and Shun can do Chouwan (qcf+P or simply df, f+P) to punish whiffs. Drink + zoning in one baby!
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d+P+K+G (sitting stance) --> P+K+G (drink) isnât bad either, despite how it looks. Just learn how to fight sitting down (K punishes a lot of stuff because itâs quick).
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advanced When you get used to Shunâs movement, you can use a combination of Offensive Move and uf+P+K+G or df+P+K+G to swing around and get behind the opponent when they miss some half-circular attack. If you ever get good at this, back-throw is a huge way to get drinking points. You shouldnât be going for this much though.
Shun - Whiff Punishing
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KK is a good whiff punisher from near-close range. I think it works at elbow range. Later on with drinks it becomes KKd+PK.
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u+K+G. Really strong move. Punishes low attacks (good way to tell your opponent to stop low punching). Can punish big whiffs. You can opt for drinking (f+P+K) or damage (F+P (whiff), F+P, KKd+PK).
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f,f+K is a really good whiff punisher from long range. With drinks, it has strong combos (the private message I sent you list some of these).
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DM+P+K can combo with lots of drinks. This thing works wonders around sidekick range and you can do it when you see an attack coming. It has weird properties.
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b+P sets up rushes. Something about Shun is that heâs a zoning character who can start rushing the opponent once he lands certain hits. b+P is one of those attacks that will start a rushdown. It forces a really nasty sideturn and given your Kage and Pai, youâll quickly learn what to do and use it well.
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K+G isnât really a whiff punisher, but it can be used as one, especially when thereâs an incoming low attack (though same can be said about u+K+G). K+G sets up a rush, a stance rush too if you hold it down.
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db+KK = cheap low attack knockdown. You can use this to be a punk and run. But thereâs no shame in that, much of Shunâs okizeme options are strongest at mid-long range anyhow. But in the early game⌠knockdown, run, drink
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df+P. Iâm no master at this move, but itâs Shunâs staple and you should practice using it a lot as well as all the options (strings) that flow from it. Itâs a huge piece of the Shun counter-offense.
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Chouwan (d, df, f+P or actually df, f+P). The standard whiff punisher since VF2. The more drinks you have, the better the combos.
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b+K (whiff it at long range or hit with it) --> P (you can and should delay this). Iâm mainly attacking about the crumpling second hit. You should use the b+K as a punk move, but if you see your opponent move or whiff, then you do the followup P from any range and itâll usually punish your opponent and give you a combo.
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b,f+P. Fast high punches, you can poke-throw with these. But itâs generally like doing PPP anyhow. But with range.
Thereâs a lot more to Shun. But here are some early tools to help you out. Itâs going to take a lot of time to play Shun but I think itâll be very rewarding and it might even be the most fun you have in the game. Heâs such a fun character and heâs on the strong side in VF5. In fact, heâs considered top tier if you care about tiers.
-Chanchai
Another good Shun thread on VFDC. Raoul translated the strategy segment of the Black Book (based on Version B btw). Donât know why this doesnât seem to be in the main Black Book article on the wiki, but it should be.
âŚ
Subject: "Shun: Common Attack Patterns"
by Raoul
Creating Attack Patterns to Match Your Opponent (quick translation from the black book)
Shunâs main attacks at mid to long range are the long reaching mids Gyou In Hai Shu (3P) and Getsu Ga Sai Geki (2_3P). Using these two as a basis, starting the powerful sabaki Koku Kyuu Hon Da (BT SOU P+K) when your opponent is likely to attack is strong. While using these moves to pin down your opponent, use Gyou In Shu (P+K+G) or Gyou Shin In Shu (6P+K+G) to get drinks, when you get an opening. When you want to attack, using strings starting with standing P and getting in close for nitaku is effective.
Since Shun does not have an elbow, correct use of moves at close range is very important. At big advantage the basis of Shunâs game is the nitaku between high return moves like Chou Wan Ryou Ken (236P) and Getsu Ga Sai Geki (2_3P) and throws. Adding the full circular Ou Sou Geki (64P) to counter evades creates a situation thatâs very hard for opponents to deal with.
At small advantage, the above moves get stuffed by fast moves, so instead you should use moves like Ka Sen Sou Shou (6PP), because itâs fast, can be hit checked and has good options on counter hit, Tan Hi Chou Geki (K+G), which is good against low P and Soku Hi Kan Shu (OM, P) to beat small moves. Also, you can use a back dash followed by Chou Wan Ryou Ken (236P) to beat both short range moves and evades.
Against enemies who guard after tech rolls, using Soku Tan Sen Shuu (6K) is powerful because it gives advantage even on block. The mid-low nitaku between Tan Hi Chou Geki (K+G) and Kou Shuu Ren Tai (1KK) is strong and versatile.
[Picture of Shun trying to hug Goh and Goh cringing]
Sou Koku Hon Da (BT SOU P+K) sabakis high and mid P, elbow, k, side kick and knee. Using it freely at mid range will cause fear in your opponents
[Picture of Shun and Goh making up, but Shun tripping and punching Goh in the stomach]
After counter hit Ou Sou Geki (64P), Chou Wan Ryou Ken (236P) is guaranteed. On guard youâre only at small disadvantage, so this is a good move to use for Ukemizeme and when both players are waiting for each other to do something.
Bonus
Another post by Raoul translating a section on Sou Koku Kyuu (aka Sou)
Subject: "Shun: Sou Koku Kyuu (Front)"
by Raoul
Sou Koku Kyuu (Front) (quick translation from the black book)
You can get to forward facing Sou Koku Kyuu from Hon Shin Tan Ka (PP4P) and by inputting a back cancel during Ren Kan Chou Geki (PPPK) or Hai Shin Ren Kan Chou Geki (BT SOU, PK).
From there, a strong followup is the mid-low nitaku between Koku Kyuu Dan Teki (SOU, K) and Koku Kyuu Zen Sou (SOU 2K). The former is a mid that causes a butt crumple on hit, and if you go into Chou Ka Rou gives advantage on block. The latter is a fast half circular low. It gives +4 on normal hit, and a foot crumple on anything better than minor counter. When going into SOU from a canceled Ren Kan Chou Geki (PPPK) or Hai Shin Ren Kan Chou Geki (BT SOU, PK), these moves come out quickly, so this is an easy nitaku to set up. When both players are waiting, going into SOU from Ren Kan Chou Geki (PPPK) is hard for your opponent to deal with.
When coming from Hon Shin Tan Ka (PP4P), Ha Ou Kan Shu (SOU, P) beats 15 frame and slower moves even on block. Use this combined with the low P avoiding Koku Kyuu Tou Tetsu (SOU, K+G) and the sabaki Kai Bou Hon Shin (SOU, P+K) to build your offense.
You know whats the best combo or just a standard no drink combo off the mule kick? The combo Iâve been doing is ghetto (Mule kick into 1+k,k ). I canât pull those OM mule kick comboes off consistentlyâŚ3 or 9+G+P+K seems easier to do after mule kick.
Hey Simon, I wrote this in a private message about Shun for you (as well as a few posts above :P) but Iâll put it up here
Shun has two main options off the mule-kick when he has no drinks (or very little drinks even):
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To Get Drunk (soso damage, good for getting drunk in the first round)
u+K+G --> f+P+K -
For Damage when you have no drunken points:
u+K+G --> F+P (whiff), F+P(G) --> KKd+P
Tip 1: you want to hold F right away after hitting your opponent with the mule kick.
Tip 2: You should keep F held down throughout the entire combo.
Tip 3: The two standing punches should be guard cancelled (the input should be P(G), P(G) all while having F held already.
Tip 4: You are supposed to whiff the first punch. The first punch is to get the timing of the combo down correctly. The second punch will connect and the KK afterwards should connect.
- Regarding OM combo
Iâll have to look for a post about the OM combo in combos like that, you want to have F held down before and during the regular standing punch after OM.
Chanchai told me to post here. Hi. Lion basics, Chan-san? Trying to keep a mental hold on all the tips you gave at Versis. Catch me on XBL whenever.
Hey Pasqual,
Sorry for the late reply. This isnât the full reply yet, Iâve been writing some stuff down on the side and I plan on posting it eventually⌠already at two pages⌠That post will be a big post about Lionâs attacks. This post is about the basic flow.
Iâll reintroduce the basic flow of VF for you. You understand how to use the moves and you know the movelist well enough actually. Your spacing game is pretty good too, which Iâm guessing comes from your general fighting game experience.
DO NOT TAKE THE FOLLOWING BASICS FOR GRANTED. THEY SOUND SIMPLE, BUT I WILL SAY THAT YOUR GAME (and so many other players) DID NOT APPLY THESE THINGS and I was able to win strongly on just these basics.
Against any beginner, I can generally win with just block, movement, high punch, low punch, elbow, and throw. Thatâs how strong those basics are. Itâs not something to brag about, itâs just how strong those aspects of the game are.
The Basic Close Up exchange is important in VF. Itâs something you should be well practiced in, but at the same time itâs not the only way to play VF (spacing and zoning are strong elements in the game as well). Knowing the more correct options you have whenever you block something, get hit by something, or hit something is super important and in VF the options are pretty vast (which is what makes it a bit confusing for many people).
If you successfully attack, you should attack (which does include throws) right away.
If you successfully defend, you should attack right awayâwith some exceptions.
If you fail to either attack or defend (you get hit), you should defend.
Attack = Attacks or Throws. Setups are nice, but you should save those for neutral or defensive situations.
Defend = Any defensive option, not limited to blocking. Hereâs a list of defensive options:
- Block High
- Block Low
- Evade (VFâs system is based on front or backside of the opponent) - this should be done while you are recovering, not when situation is neutral
- Dash/Crouch Dash
- Attack if you clearly know what you are doing (ie. using a non-clashable attack if you are certain your opponent throw BECAUSE he has used throw a bitâyou should not use this if he has not given you a reason to).
- Advanced Defense (you should learn these later because they just boggle your input if you havenât mastered all of the above). There are lots of options for advanced defense.
- Throw-Escape Guard (the only advanced defense I recommend to a beginner). This is inputting a throw escape (against Kage you want to do b+P+G) and immediately letting go of P so that you are holding Guard. Done properly and with the right timing, you will throw escape a throw attempt or high block the incoming mid.
The Basic Pokes of VF (which you will use for almost everyone, constantly)
High Punch P(G)
The single punch is important in VF. Itâs as important to VF as the jab is to boxingânamely because it has the same purpose. Itâs your basic setup. That said, it has the general fighting game weakness, it gets interrupted by low attacks of all sorts.
Blocked High Punch - If your opponent blocks your high punch, you have a small advantage. This might sound normal in most fighting games, but in VF you should know that this is a huge exception. Like 99% of all attacks in VF (okay, more like 98%) leave you in disadvantage on block. High Punch leaves you in small advantage after your opponent blocks it.
Before I give you the advice on what to do if your opponent blocks your high punch, it is important to hit-check your high punch. VERY IMPORTANT TO HIT CHECK. Your jab will be so much stronger for it. Now⌠if your opponent blocks your High Punch, you should do an elbow (f+P) or similar move. If the elbow hits, your already rushing your opponent. If they blocked low, then you have a strong stagger game (I recommend doing another mid or dashing in and throwing after they recoverâyou canât throw a person while stunned but you can catch them right away after). Lion also has the followup P string from elbow which gives you space and added damage.
Some other options Lion has after his high punch is blocked: b+P is good, f+K is also decent. And there are others but those are pretty solid.
High Punch Hits - I recommend doing the same flowchart as a blocked high punch. Itâll amount to doing quick pokes anyhow.
High Punch MCs (aka Major Counters aka Counter Hits) - This is the goal of your jab. To interrupt your opponent. And it is highly rewarding if you are fast. In VF4 and VF5, an MC emits a quick yellow flash to show you that a move interrupted. Train yourself to see this and react right away (also train yourself to see MCs as they are happeningâVFâs executions times are slow enough to allow you to do this).
High Punch MC = Nitaku = âTwo Choices.â This is a principal, and like all principles you should follow it until you understand it and then later understand that there are exceptions. Itâs easy for us Americans to talk about âwell so and so can do this or do thatâ but really, trust me, stick with the fundamentals until you understand them in and out. Turn the knowledge into applied understanding and eventually wisdom. So here are the two choices: Mid attack (preferably something big) or Throw (preferably one of your better throws).
The reason for this situation is simple, the opponent cannot use a low block to avoid a throw anymore (but he can block low attacks). This effectively eliminates all fuzzy guard options and makes your throw a bigger threat in these situations. If he starts falling to throws (because he isnât reacting fast enough to do anything or because heâs afraid of getting hit with the mid), he will have to respond with throw escapes or attack the throw directly, which is more difficult to do in VF5 because of the throw-clash system.
For Lion, here are some good general options here:
For Throwing: HCB+P+G or D,f+P+G
For Mid Attack: P+K --> f,f+KK (beginner combo). Standard option is actually df, df, f+P (crouch dash --> uppercut) --> P,K,P. However, this standard option only works on counter hit.
As your game illustrates, Lion has one of the best low attack games in VF5. You can use those instead of throwing and itâll be quite effective except that some of those low attacks can be blocked on reflex at super high level play and well⌠low attacks in VF are moderate risk-low reward. Thatâs why theyâre usually used in clutch situations or to finish someone off or on okizeme.
Recovery Punishment - High Punch is the fastest standard option in the game (Lionâs only faster move is doing K while his back is turned). Faster than throws (this is new in VF5). Therefore, your punishment option if you block a big attack or if your opponent whiffs a standing attack is to use P,K.
Lion has P,K,P which is a good game. The final P can be delayed A LOT and it will beat low punches. Donât overuse it because youâll be vulnerable and punished by strong players. But itâs a great weapon to throw in the mix.
Low Punch
You overused Low Punch (blocked) --> f+P (uppercut). For any other character, this is poor form and will get you killed (and it did get you killed against me). For Lion, his uppercut has special properties which you probably figured out intuitively and hence use it so muchâitâll beat a lot of things. But again, in general this is poor form and hereâs why.
If your low punch is blocked, you are in the ballpark of -5 frames which means your opponents elbow will interrupt almost anything you attack with and their low punch definitely will. The Uppercut sometimes turns this around because it has weird properties during Lionâs stance change (his feet position changes when he uses the uppercut).
General rule: You should definitely DEFEND (and not attack) when your low punch is blocked. Using the uppercut should only come after youâve mastered using defense first. Likewise, if you block your opponents low punch, you should definitely elbow or low punch right away.
If you hit with the low punch, you have a decent enough advantage to push your attack forward but nothing too big. The uppercutâs a good option, so is u+K.
If you interrupt your opponent with the low punch and he is standing, then the options from MC High Punch apply here.
Elbow f+P
Iâll make this brief:
If your elbow is blocked or dodged, DEFEND. Simple as that. Later on you can learn how to fuzzy guard which makes the elbow all the more stronger as a poke.
If your opponent hits, apply more pressure with attacks.
If your opponent staggers (hits a crouching opponent) you have options:
- Dash in and do an attack (this will almost certainly hit unless they recover fast enough).
- Dash in and throw (this will only happen once opponent is recovered, but this option is very good against opponents who mash the directions to recover while holding Guard).
- Do Lionâs followup P (Lionâs f+PP is a dangerous move to do because the final punch is vulnerable if blocked or dodgedâLion is screwedâbut in situations where it is guaranteed, itâs a great option because damage is decent and you can push the opponent back far either to press them towards ring out or to get yourself out of a wall/ringout situation).
Anyways, hope this helps you until I get the more Lion specific post out
-Chanchai
You are amazing. I came home from a 40-match set of VF5 against R Panda to this. Sweetness. Definitely going to do some work on this and next time I make it out to Versis or see you on XBL weâll get some sparring in.
The following is the post I told you about. Thereâs still more to put out there, but here are a few more notes, this time Lion specific. I figure I might as well give you partial information instead of none (though I gave you the previous post too).
âŚ
Hey Pasqual,
It was great meeting you on Thursday! Your VF game certainly shows a lot of experience. We have a nice group with a very wide range of skill levels in VF so I think Portlandâs scene, when it is together, is pretty good for nurturing.
Anyways, Iâll throw some notes on Lion for you in this post. Donât expect it to be a full guide or even a proper primer, itâs just gonna be some random notes and things that should help you out as you improve your Lion. Itâs super late at night and Iâm falling asleep, I hope that wonât affect this post too much 
**RANDOM LION NOTES **
Pros/Cons
At the beginner and intermediate level of VF play, Lion often gets away with confusing animations (db+K is the ultimate example, a low attack that looks so much like itâs going to be mid). He also gets away with semi-evasive properties and his ability to poke is very strong against beginners and intermediate players. Lion is very strong against beginners and intermediate players.
However, at the highest levels of play, Lion is hard to use because the preconditions for high damage are very specific. Some moves will require a counter hit, some moves will only work against a super good opponent if you accurately guessed an incoming slower attack, some moves will require you to be very fast at whiff punishing or even hit checking (fortunately, Lion isnât that much of a hit-check character though). Furthermore, Lionâs pokes are just pokes, you can win many situations but still come off doing almost no damage.
Among the top Lion players, you kind of have two camps. You have players who are super safe pokers, playing quite defensively, though certainly not forsaking basic exchanges.
Then you have the more well-known superstar talent players like Fuudo or Chibita. They make it look easy, but their ability to read their opponents and their instincts are world class and are a big factor in their success with Lion.
VF5 Basics
Since you are pretty much coming off of VF4, I should give you a couple notes on VF5.
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P(G) is generally faster than Throw execution speed in VF5. This changes your options after blocking a big attack. If you block or dodge a big attack from your opponent, your fastest option is typically P,K (Punch Kick combo). In VF1-VF4FT, throw was your fastest response in these situations, this is no longer the case as the High Punch has become a true guarantee.
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Throw Clash â I explained it at Versis but itâs a complicated new mechanic in the game.
The gist is: A throw will usually clash if the throw (which has 12 frames of execution) reaches its hit-frames during or before the midpoint of the opponentâs attack.
In English: Throw clashes give the thrower a little bit more safety room in the throw option for an offensive guessing game.
Typical (though not perfect) rules for what beats a clash: attacker is using a turnaround attack, a hop attack, a low attack. -
0-frame throw â VF4 introduced throws with execution time. VF5 still has those throws and they are the most common, but VF5 introduced conditions for a 0-frame throw. I wonât go into detail but I will say that in most cases, if you throw an opponent who whiffed their attack and you throw them before they fully recover from the whiffed attack, youâll get a 0-frame throw. Advantage: 0-frame throw cuts the throw-escape window in half, this makes it way harder to escape the throw.
Some Bread n Butter
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Lionâs best throws are HCB+P+G and D,f+P+G.
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Throw Combo: D,f+P+G --> f,f (do it fast) --> d+P --> b,f+P+K,P,P (works on all non-heavies).
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Throw Combo (heavy): D,f+P+G --> f,f+K,K
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b,b+K is a standard combo starter for Lion. Being high and linear makes it dangerous, but the danger is limited by the fact that you will be back turned if your opponent interrupts this move. What this means is that for many characters, they will have a difficult time finishing their combos if it started with you being hit out of b,b+K (but donât take easy refuge in it, some characters still have devestating combos in this situation, Akira is one of them). This attack can slip under some standing high attacks, but that is a very risky use of the move.
The best two uses of b,b+K is:
- zone-punishing a standing whiffed attack (as part of your backdash)
- beating a throw attempt (this move does not clash with throws).
General b,b+K Combo (works on all, great damage): b,b+K --> P+K --> F+K,K
(F+K,K is actually K,K with F pre-buffered and held down before and during K,K)
- f+P elbow â What I wrote in the basics notes applies here. Elbow is your basic fast-mid-attack poke. However, Lion has a few footnotes to go along with the elbow.
Lion cannot use f+P from crouch for an elbow because that is the input for his quick uppercut. His quick uppercut is not effective at all against people crouching. What this means is that Lion doesnât ânaturallyâ have the ability to go straight into an elbow after blocking a sweep or any other crouching low attacks (for most characters, especially Jacky, using an elbow is an effective standard response when blocking a sweep or crouching low attack).
There is a trick to get the elbow from a crouch positionâand thus having a very effective (pretty much the best) response after blocking your opponentâs sweep. Buffer a backdash and quickly do f+P. So: b,b,f+P. If you can do this fast enough, you can do the followup punch without worry or just rush the opponent. Highly effective, but the backdash buffering adds frames to your input so be cautious of that (your opponent might be able to block your elbow if you werenât fast enough).
The easiest way to punish an opponent with the elbow, and what I highly recommend, is to get in the habit of dashing into an enemy who is whiffing their crouching low attack and use the elbow-punch (f+P,P).
Another easy situation to use the elbow is after dodging a linear crouching low-attack.
If you see an interrupt happening (not guessing, you are actually seeing that you will interrupt your opponent with the elbow) then f+P,P is guaranteed on MC.
Elbow is also a good option when you have nitaku, such as after interrupting your opponent with P(G). If you are confident that your opponent will try to attack in this situation, you can do the full f+P,P. The damage is decent enough and the range is great for ring control (and ringing out). Furthermore, if you have been conditioning your opponent with sweeps or Lionâs low attacks in this situation, then your elbow has become an even stronger option.
- u+K â Very good basic poke. You should not use the followup kick unless you think your opponent will poke back right away (but if you guess wrong you are screwed) or if you know youâre going to hit with the first one. But even then, you can combo this move on MC.
u+K (MC) --> b,f+P+K,P,P works well and itâs easy to see the hit happening and finish the combo.
Despite how it looks, this attack is not a true anti-low, that is, you are not invulnerable to low attacks. Itâll look that way if you had the advantage though, but this attack does not really hop over lows. Itâs strong and working because itâs quick and fairly safe.
u+K is an excellent Okizeme move to pressure teching opponents, but more specifically, this move will destroy rising attacks when timed right. The timing is tricky, but youâll get the u+K --> b,f+P+K,P,P combo if you get it.
- b,df+P â A very good move but it should really only be used in one situation.
Standard Combo: b,df+P --> f,f+KK
This move should only be used to punish whiffed attacks. More specifically it should be used when you KNOW a high attack is coming. It can also be used to punish slow attacks from range.
At the beginner and intermediate level, this move is abused too much because beginners and intermediate level players usually canât react fast enough to punish it despite this being an exceptionally slow move.
The truth is, your opponent has all the time in the world to dodge it and punish (particulary with a mid that combos). Against the best opponents, you should never really land this move unless itâs used to punish an incoming high attack. Itâs dangerous to use this move without proper consideration.
And if youâre thinking thereâs a mixup between b,df+P and f,f+Pâthere really isnât. Lionâs yell as he does either move is different and gives away hat level to block. And again, this move is completely linear, opponent can dodge it either way.
- D, f+P â A staple for Lion, which leads into a standard combo upon counter-hit.
Standard Combo: D,f+P --> PKP (followup options vary from stance and weight).
The problem with this attack is that it is worthless against people who are blocking low (this means that itâs a bad mixup option to use when mixing up with low attacks). So this move must interrupt. Normal hit is okay but nothing special.
If the opponent blocks it, they have nitaku. This means you should block low if they attack low, throw escape if they are going for a throw, or block if they do a mid attack.
However, if your opponent has thrown you a couple times after blocking your uppercut, I recommend using b,b+K combos as an âabare.â
This strategy, which you should not abuse until you master the basic strategies, is âreverse nitaku.â It basically means going for high risk high reward solutions when the opponent has you stuck in nitaku. The logic is to pressure the opponent even more to guess right or have his mixup anticipated and haunting him with higher than normal damage.
Holy shit, Nick. Too good man, thank you :lovin:
I tried to play online last night and there was only 1 guy in Ranked; a 6th Dan Lau player with about 8000 matches under his belt. I nearly beat him twice and started feeling good about myself until I remembered how many people in SF4 are in G1 spamming wakeup Shoryus 
Nick: I should bring my HD next time to Versis so we can save some of the replays. My biggest problem is with people who use an abare style. They refuse to defend even though they should. I generally evade or low poke against these people but any other tips?
Today ended a long 8 Event struggle to become a US Finalist for the World Cyber Games Virtua Fighter 5.
Finally secured my spot in this yearly event and it feels great.
Now I just need to get tickets to NYC and Iâm set.
WCG VF5 bracket here:
CONGRATULATIONS RAY!!! Thatâs wonderful man!
Simon: Iâve been preparing a pretty big post about dealing with Abare (generally and something more Shun specific too) for over a day. Hope I can get it done by tomorrow Just been busy with family and stuff hehe.
-Chanchai
Hell yeah RAY! COngrats man! Congrats! Hopefully you recorded that match!
:woot: Congrats! Give 'em hell.
Dealing with abare
Hey Simon,
Hereâs the first part of the big post Iâve been preparing for you on my thoughts on dealing with abare. These arenât facts, just my impression on how to deal with Abare style play. I will be posting these in parts because my response just got too big.
First up, the intro and my personal thoughts on Rayâs abare style of play, why weâre lucky to have it, and why I enjoy fighting it a lot!
âŚ
Dealing with AbareâŚ
CONTENTS
- Intro
- Raybladeâs Abare Gameplay
- Abare in General
- Itâs Hard to Abare an âEffectiveâ Chicken
- Dilemma: Is It Really Abare? (setups that look like abare)
- Sabaki & Limbs
- Shun vs. Abare
- Recap: Summary of some of the anti-abare methods described
INTRO
It depends on the matchup and how well they are playing that Abare style⌠Well, at least those factors affect how much research or on-the-spot learning you need to do. But thatâs only referring to specific higher-level abare.
There are also general abare situations you should be aware of, and ways of dealing with them (which is not so unique to VF, you do these techniques a lot in other fighters, but itâs just not normal enough in VF for people to play that way because the engine lends itself so much to forward playing).
Remember this: Playing with effective Abare is playing with exceptions and risk. If you look at it this way and you learn why certain abare is working under certain situationsâyouâll have a better idea of how to deal with it and be able to quickly get the odds back in your favor and punish the abare attempt (especially with Shunâs style of play).
RAYâS ABARE
Iâll start off the details with some comments on Rayâs abare style because itâs worth discussing and Ray provides all opponents the opportunity of experience against a sophisticated type of constant abare. For me, Iâm a bit of both moral and abare. But I am still considered âtoo abareâ by many top players.
When it comes to Rayâs abare style, itâs tricky. But really high level players have taken Ray down by just being super solid and knowing when heâs crossing a line. Sometimes I go that route, and I certainly could improve there and itâs what I advocate, but the battles between Ray and I⌠well itâs so tempting to go toe-to-toe.
Ray plays an advanced abare style and itâs partially why Ray and I love VF as much as we do, that it has so many of these offensive answers in defensive situationsâif you at least understand where those answers work. Which is why Ray and I fight so toe-to-toe all the time (where I donât do that so much against other players in general). Guess we have our macho war in VF lol.
Itâs also why his Vanessa is a pain in the ass to deal with for me. Iâll use abare options in an otherwise moral game with my Lionâbut even I abare more than normal for VF. Rayâs Vanessa knows some of its setups and sabaki options that can eat various classes of attacks. Vanessa has a lot of abare options that allow her to rush an opponent even from defense.
For my Lion, I had to throw mid kicks and sweeps in to keep Ray honest and even thatâs hard. Vanessa has some strong abare options that not many other players in North America are able to implement as well as Ray (mainly because Ray is one of the most abare type players in the country hehehe).
Against him, you might have to generally either play more effective VF by sometimes limiting your responses to those that cover a variety of things including moves he used to abare you. Again, back to the general point, given that Ray is a solid player with a decent enough understanding of the game or at least his movelistâthe abare he is likely to use is some exception to general rules of attacks. So sometimes you have to limit your movelist a bit like the example I gave of using more mid-kicks against his vanessa, but this cannot dominate your gameplay.
Another thing that can work is to not give him a target to hit, even after up-close exchanges. Iâll cover this more in the chicken section, but playing a more defensive game where youâre not pushing the advantage so much as taking advantage of your opponentâs assertiveness is a strong way to stop the abare player cold. But you cannot take him lightly here, Vanessa also has anti run-away tools and Ray knows how to use them when his mood is right.
Anyways⌠We will bring the discussion back to the general level and then your Shun (Since youâre mostly playing Shun lately) in the next few posts
-Chanchai
Hey!
Just wanted to say hi in this thread and give a heads up about a new VF player (me). VF5 is my first VF. I want to play Vanessa. I know itâs going to take time and effort to get my head around a complicated character like her, but I understand and accept this responsibility. It also amuses me that Chanchai and Ray play the characters Pasqual and I use, respectively. I also claim Pasqual as my VF rival, as we begin this game at about the same time (though he started with 4âŚ).
UmâŚthat is all!
Nemesis.
Text me if you want to game today, Panda.