Northwest VFers

Regional Matchmaking Northwest
421

Really great games last night with you, Ray, and Jetay! I had a blast :slight_smile:

Also thanks to you for helping me! Your Kage has actually done a lot to help me find a groove for Jeffry and Jacky–a groove I can apply against many types of strong competition.

You were playing very good and very strong last night–it was mainly strings that were nailing you so it’s just a matter of experience.

The only things not really in your arsenal as far as I can tell are option selects and fuzzy guard (and umm… Kage’s just-frame multi-hit dragon punch lol).

Even though you felt like you were put into autopilot at some point late in the evening, you pushed me to play how I play after a day or two of being in California or New York–very careful, use fuzzy guard and option select more, more patient, and turtle if I have to.

Last time I was almost forced to play in that way from a PDX/VAN player was Andrew Schmunk and before that, old VF4 players Jason Dolar and Ricardo.

Ray brings out the best in me but in the form of aggressive play–we just love fighting it out aggressively with lots of crazy gambles and very fun monster-aggressive play–so I hardly use that style to that extent against him. Matches against Ray end up being my favorite though, win or lose :slight_smile:

Anyways… Vanessa… Honestly, she’s the character that gives me the hardest time. Ray has a very good Vanessa, probably the best one I’ve played against in the US (I never played Sniper Woof, but just about all other Vanessa players I’ve fought in the US did not give me a hard time at all close to Ray’s). He uses a large portion of her movelist and will use both her stances. She’s a complicated character and his offense shows it.

A month ago I devoted time to learning to play as Vanessa and that’s helped a lot. Though right now, I am only really familiar with Defensive Stance. I’ll start learning Offensive Stance soon. The more I play as her, the more I enjoy it but it also highlights how complicated her arsenal is. And how strong it is if you combine both stances.

Because Ray uses both stances well, I can’t just give you general tips… But here are some notes on Vanessa:

*Be wary of her sidekick, and I don’t mean be afraid of getting hit by it. I mean that whether it hits or it is blocked, if it made contact with you, it will put Vanessa in a safe range to zone you. This is something that can really disrupt your Kage in particular, but also disrupts me because of how much I like to poke in general. So be wary of the fact that Vanessa’s sidekick is probably the strongest in the game simply because it’s very safe and it sets up other attacks.

*If you hear “Take That” – DUCK AND DO NOT ATTACK UNTIL SHE WHIFFS! If you can do that, any Vanessa player will stop using that move because you’ll punish the crap out of them (I’m still bad at punishing this, sadly–I have better success with it when playing in California than up in Portland for whatever reason).

*Vanessa is very strong at both very close and very long range. Her mid-range is very solid. This really makes her a pain to fight against, but it’s balanced by how specific she has to be in her attacks at various ranges (it’s balanced by complexity).

*I think the main throw escape directions against her are “down” and “forward.” Back is also another direction, but it’s weaker in damage.

*If she crumples you (you grab your stomach or head and fall down slowly), always buffer in a Low-Throw-Escape. It’s a 50/50 guessing game because you can only do ONE THROW ESCAPE. “Down” or “Down-Forward” are the low throw directions.

Other than that, play against Vanessa a lot and if you can, spend time learning her. She’s a pain to deal with, but it helps a whole lot if you take the time to learn how to play as her.

-Chanchai

422

I still don’t understand what to do against Vanessa when she does the full mount with punches and throw. I’ve been told its a mixup between p, p+k, and throw, and that the best option is to mash throw? I do that but I swear I still get thrown. One time I actually pressed p, p+k, and p+g in those 3 orders, and still got hit by those exact three attacks (my opponent told me he did those 3). Maybe I just need someone to sit down and show me.

Chanchai, wish I was coming down to RS. Are you coming up to Zach’s anytime soon? I want to play you :slight_smile:

423

Tip #1: Dealing with Vanessa’s Tackle
Until I practiced it, I was also a bit confused as to what to do against Vanessa’s tackle. I used to mash the escape too, but have found out that all you have to do is hold the escape command down and it will register :slight_smile: Here are the options:

  • Hold Guard
  • Hold Down+ Guard
  • Hold Punch + Guard

And that’s it :slight_smile:

Tip #2: Mid Kicks help your poke arsenal against Vanessa
This is more dependent on the player, playing Vanessa. But it’s an opportunity to round out your close/mid-range poke arsenal.

Because elbows and high punches are very common and standard in good poking games, Vanessa has an option that can really frustrate opponents. Vanessa’s b,f+K is a sabaki attack that can eat almost all high attacks, mid-punches, and all elbows.

This move is very frustrating to deal with, so it’s important to sometimes mix in more of your character’s faster mid-kick options in poke wars, especially just outside of low punch range.

Mid-kicks become valuable when Vanessa’s defensive stance has a lot of options to intercept your punches and elbows, eat them, and also crush your low attacks (her db+P).

You should not be over-consumed by this fact though. That is, just because she has some rough answers for a lot of your best pokes, that does not mean you should neglect your best pokes. You just have to be careful and figure out if your opponent even likes using these options much (if they do these specific options only a couple times in a round against you, I wouldn’t worry–worry about it if it becomes a pattern against you).

Tip #3: Take occasional breaks from poking (mid-range)
This is not a rule or a principle, just simple advice that shouldn’t turn into dogma. Ultimately, to fight a good Vanessa, I believe you have to know how to fight up-close against her and get a feel for the poke war with her. However, I recommend that you also improve your ability to change-up the ranges to fight in.

Breaking away from the close-up poking game on occasion can help take Vanessa out of her rhythm. She’s a complex character with options at all ranges and tools that are very dangerous if she can predict her opponent. Giving a good Vanessa player too much rhythm can ease that player’s challenge of applying her complex offense against you.

So my recommendation is to mix up your ranges, switch up the battlefield now and then. Take a break from poking now and then, and then once you find your comfort in it again or once you have an opening, re-engage the poke war on your own terms.

Vanessa is adept at all ranges, which is partly why she’s a pain to deal with:

  • Close range: she can stuff you and easily setup mid-range
  • Mid-range: I think this is her most dangerous range.
  • Long-range: she can be tricky and she has a large arsenal compared to other characters. You have to be quite careful when fighting a long-range battle with Vanessa.

Until you are comfortable with Vanessa’s arsenal being used against you, you can at least try to test your opponents ability to apply her complicated movelist at different ranges by changing up the spacing now and then.

These are just my thoughts and are not meant to be taken too seriously. The challenge of fighting a good Vanessa is a lot of fun and trying to understand her more and more has been very worthwhile and rewarding for me.

-Chanchai

424

Hey Zass,

I really want to meet you, man!

Unfortunately… I won’t be able to go to RS either. I’ll be taking a trip to England (1 week) and then Thailand (1 additional week).

Well, really, it’s fortunate because it’ll be an awesome trip with the wife. But unfortunate that I won’t be able to hang out at either the Random Select tournament or with the community for a couple of weeks.

As for Preppy’s… I really love hanging out at Preppy’s. I had an awesome experience there two years ago and I hope I’ll be able to participate again.

But because of the business I’m in, I feel it’s important that I’m available for work on weekends (aside from vacation of course). And so that trip hasn’t really been an option yet.

Perhaps sometime in the near future I’ll find a way to reconcile this… Preppy’s poker nights are just flat out awesome.

-Chanchai

425

Should get Andrew to come out and play some time. I haven’t seen him in years.

426

I hope to get him out to join our sessions! His Brad was a real pain to fight (in a good way) and his Eileen was quite formidable.

That said… he was really busy with tax season and he’s quite busy with newlywed life hehehe

I hope to get him out though, always awesome to have him around!

-Chanchai

427

Here’s the bracket for this week (WCG):

http://qualify.us.wcg.com/?page=stem&view=schedule&stageid=2650

428

Dang, I only know a handful of people in there…

Good luck in your match tomorrow!

Hehe, Brisal and Plague fight each other at the start… Their practically neighbors and they play each other all of the time…

Anyways, still glad WCG is doing all this.

429

Nick, what do you think I should work on for Pai? Any moves I’m not using? What’d you think of my Pai in general?

430

I will admit this is more shots in the dark for me, because I’m no Pai expert, but I will list some of the things I don’t remember seeing in your Pai that I have seen across various other Pai players.

Your Pai is shockingly good for being less than a week old. You’ve already locked onto the biggest combos, especially side-crumple combos. Your general poking is strong already and you’ve carried it over nicely to your Pai.

What I was glad to see last night was that you seemed to be experimenting a lot more with opening moves. This is very encouraging and I like it, it’s something I try to advise everyone to do: experiment with the opening whether it’s an aggressive idea or a defensive one. A lot of players tend to repeat like 3 things in the opening–but VF is a game where you can really gain a lot off the bat–and I don’t mean just from offense, you can gain a lot with a good defensive trap if you know your opponent is aggressive.

Your okizeme is improving. I told you about it earlier in the night, that I had concerns that you didn’t practice okizeme (anti-wake-up games) enough in matches. In VF, it’s a good opportunity. While VF’s okizeme is not as overpowering as what I think I’ve seen in Tekken, it’s a huge asset to any VF player to know have competency in it, and in VF, every little bit of damage matters!

Right now your okizeme is more limited to things like uf+K+G, setting your opponent up for uramawari (getting up backwards). Experiment more and you’ll find Pai has quite a few things for all situations. A low throw can be used against some people techrolling to the side. ff+K has its uses at punishing a whiffed rising attack. ff+P+K can be used against people getting up defensively. I think ub+K+G can even be used to beat some rising attacks (this is risky and I don’t know if it really applies). And you can always zone, and Pai does it almost as well as Kage. Sky is the limit, there are lots of tools for okizeme.

And don’t forget, if your opponent likes to stay down on the ground, especially 3 or 4 times in a row, HIT HIM ON THE GROUND! Get him to stop doing that, get him to play your game.

Anyways, those are general notes. Now I’ll get more direct to what you were asking for. Moves that I don’t remember seeing you use that much of:

*** ff+P+K** – This is actually a good move in Pai’s arsenal. It can’t be used wrecklessly, however. You use ff+K really really well. Because of that, if opponents actually start being more cautious in the long-range fight, ff+P+K (which is a low attack) becomes an option. Furthermore, it sets up Bokutai stance options (and other pokes too)–something your Pai could use more of too!

*** Bokutai Stance** – You already have the game to set this move up so well. From PK or b+K is already how you’ve been using it. And from the above, you can add ff+P+K. Learn the potentials of Bokutai. It’s no Shippuujin (Kage’s damage stance), but it’s damn frustrating to deal with.

*** K+G** – You did use this a bit. But I think with practice, you can become really effective with this. It’s full circular and will beat low attacks if you’re in advantage. It’s a frustrating move for opponents once you get good at it. Has many options after hitting or counter hitting with it. Sets up the back-turned game as well. uf+K+G is a good lead-in to K+G.

*** back-turned game** – Pai has a vicious back-turned game that starts with d+P+K (while back is turned). Various ways to get into back-turned such as PPb+P and K+G (hold). You can even use uf+K+G (or ub+K+G technically) to hop away from your opponent and zone them, but I wouldn’t use that until you’re comfortable with her other options back-turned. Black-Book Strategy article on VFDC is good at explaining the back-turned game.

*** from-crouch, neutral+K (aka while-standing K)** – I don’t remember seeing this move much, but it’s a good one. uf+K+G,K is also good at punishing blocked lows, but if you want a move that might not have as much guaranteed damage, but much greater potential damage, this is your move. It’ll help you in rushing the opponent and is easy to do whenever you block a low. Perfect opportunities arise when you face low attack hunters like me (my Lion likes to use a lot of low attacks, my Jeffry uses d+K+G more than he should, but gets away with it). Don’t let low-attack hunters get away with it, make them think twice about attacking low.

*** after b,d+P+G, the popular option seems to be anything involving high-punch.** Therefore, PPK is popular damage. PK bokutai is a quick game. PPb+P is also a game. Let the rushing begin (and distract your opponent from escaping HCB+P+G throw so you can setup that all-powerful throw).

*** adjusting throws.** Your Kage has gotten better at this. It doesn’t help that very few Portland players actually throw-escape successfully, but we’re always working on it :slight_smile: If your opponent escapes your big throw once or twice, that should be sufficient to see if mixing up works on them. At that point, it truly becomes a guessing game. Some opponents will try to predict the exact throw you will use. Some people will just plug in the escape for the big-throw just to keep away from the biggest damage.

*** ub+K+G** – The real purpose of this attack is that it won’t clash with a throw attempt so it’s worth doing if you think your opponent will go for a throw. However, it’s also a decent spacing tool. If opponent blocks from crouch-f+P, you can use this attack if they go for a throw, it shouldn’t clash in that situation. I don’t know how bad (or good) the situation is if they do a launcher on you though (it might be a safe option, I can’t remember).

Anyways… those are the things I was able to come up with. I am still shocked at how your Pai has developed in under a week, it’s a lot of fun to fight against!

-Chanchai

431

Some self-corrections and also some more Pai notes:

  • while-standing K – In Version B (the PS3 version), this attack stumbles the opponent and it was the stumbling that justified its use in my earlier post. In Version C (360), it knocks down on normal hit. Because of this, in version C, I would generally recommend uf+K+G,K after blocking sweeps since it will do more damage. If you like the okizeme situation from while-standing Kick more, then by all means go for it.

  • after b,d+P+G the general response isn’t PPK. It seems like it’s a general guessing game with no guaranteed options. I have seen quite a bit of strings starting with P working well at least up to two hits. PPb+P can be punished if anticipated so be careful about using it. PPPb+K is a decent option from what I’ve tried out.

  • I still highly recommend putting ub+K+G into your game. It’s a cheezy move that works well for Pai. It can be used for all the same things I wrote about it in the last post, but it’s also a nice way to zone and even trap aggressive opponents (if they are being aggressive after being hit by it, you are likely to have a few things that will punish them right away).

  • df+P+G --> uf+K+GK is actually guaranteed. However, a good option to keep your opponent honest (while going for more damage) is to do a backthrow on them. For the opponent to avoid this, they have to be holding down. If they avoid the throw, then go back to uf+K+GK. f+P is another option as it can lead to a back stagger.

  • back-throw – If you land the back-throw, then use f,f+K,P (I think you can followup with f,f+P,K).

  • u/d+P+K – This is a move Ray likes to do on okizeme. Mainly used against opponents who tech-roll to the side too much, especially if that side can be predicted (down or up). I personally think it’s too risky to use in the normal poking exchange. It’s quick and easy okizeme damage against techrollers. That said, I’m not the biggest fan personally because I like to go for bigger potential on Okizeme. Good to have in your arsenal regardless.

-Chanchai

432

THROWS AND VIRTUA FIGHTER

Preface
Last week at one of the Versis “Fight Night” weekly gatherings, Sam B. asked me a question while I was playing VF5 with Yangsing:

**“Don’t you think throws are too powerful in VF?” **

It’s a great question that I have heard quite a bit from non VF players. And I think it’s a topic that helps to define what VF is among fighting games and why it plays so differently from most other fighting games. I posted a short answer in the Versis thread:

“Throws aren’t too powerful in VF. But they are strong and the way they are implemented is probably the biggest difference between VF and almost all other fighting games. VF throws have weaknesses that they do not have in other fighting games and how many throws a character has and how many worthwhile throws they have are important factors in the character balance of the game. I think they are what make VF matches happen the way that they do (sounds silly without explanation).”

Specific Reasons Why Throws are Not Too Powerful (when compared to high damage combos)
Throws are not overwhelmingly powerful in Virtua Fighter because in the overall scheme of things, they are not unconditionally better than high damage combos.

In VF, THE ONLY THING that determines if throwing is a better option than attacking (or simply defending) is YOUR OPPONENT’S DECISION in the exchange.

  • You cannot use throws wrecklessly unless your opponent’s constantly making bad decisions. Furthermore, your opponent can do MANY THINGS to disrupt your throw.

  • They are only situationally better options, just like high damage combos or even pokes are only situationally better than throws–throws are not unconditionally better. In fact, the conditions in which they are better are very conditional.

  • Throws alone do not do more damage than the highest damage combos for almost all given characters (Wolf is an exception to this, but his combos do nearly as much damage–the throw he has that does ridiculous damage is inputting b,db,d,df,f+P+G all with one frame for each input–that is, inputting flawlessly without delay).

  • Only a small handful of throws do crazy high damage.

  • Throws do not lock your opponent down in any way, though strategically they factor into your opponents decision making.

  • Throws are very easy to prevent/stop/escape. Attacking (including basic pokes) stuffs it. They can be ducked under. You cannot throw a staggered opponent (but you can throw him immediately after he recovers from being staggered). Your opponent can use throw escapes. Your opponent can avoid getting too close to you. Layering one’s defensive options with insurance throw escapes is not too hard in VF5 (at least at and above the intermediate level).

  • If predicted, you could be punished severely with a big combo (assuming your opponent is skilled). Some characters can punish throw attempts more severely than others.

  • There is no guarantee of damage because throws are escapable (even when they are “guaranteed”). On the other hand, combos are guaranteed damage whenever the first hit lands.

The Bottomline:

*1) They have to be used with care: Against good opponents, throws either have to be set up, used as part of a forced-guessing game, or they have to exploit your opponents habits.

  1. They are not naturally a better option: With only 1 exception, throws alone do not do more damage than high damage combos.

  2. They have consequences when used wrecklessly. They can be punished severely. *

VF battles flow with constant change to the initiative and just about all options have a direct counter to them (and each counter has a weakness). The original paper-rock-scissors of VF was: Guard beats attack, throws beat guard, attacks beat throw. In VF5 it’s a bit more complicated (Evade-Throw-Escape loses to circular and delayed attacks, fuzzy guard loses to delayed throws or are abused by setups, etc…), but every single option still has a direct weakness that can be applied in non-guaranteed situations. Some characters have really powerful throws to make them a direct threat against people who block or dodge too much, but throws never outright discourage the use of combo-leading attacks.

**Ultimately, the role of throws in VF is simple and generally limited to three things:

  1. Throws prevent people from blocking (and sidestepping) too much.
  2. Throws punish mistakes.
  3. Throws can potentially punish people who get their big attacks blocked (in VF5, high punch is guaranteed here)**

They can’t be used to really take over the initiative in any overwhelming way and their damage is not ridiculous compared to the damaging combos and setups in the game. Throws are no better than combos.

-Chanchai

P.S. To be honest, I wrote a much bigger post but ended up cutting a lot of it out and will save it for writing a detailed article on throws and how they affect balance and flow in the game at some other point (I hope). I felt this part of the article I wrote was more of a direct answer to the question.

433

it seems to me that throws are much weaker in VF5 than in a game like ST.

434

Because VF’ers are like Bon Jovi and living on a prayer.

If anyone’s intrested and wants to let SEGA know that we want this game in the states. http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=194077\

P.S. I hate SEGA.

435

If VF5R comes out I’ll make Hulk Hogan Wolf, and when I play you and Airthrow I’ll scream all sorts of 80s wrestling quotes into the mic:

  • OHHHH YEAHHHHH Machooooooo Mannnnn Yeah!
  • Crazy fool!!! Git ready for Pain! I pity you fool!
  • Whatcha gonna do, brutha… when the biggest arms in wrasslin… comes crashing down on YOU??
436

Don’t even get me started on 80s wrestling quotes. Other than Geto Boys and Iron Maiden vids all I watch on YouTuve are the old interviews and matches of WWF/WCW/other promotions past that I missed.

Fuck Hot Dog, it’s all about “WOOOO!! I can’t help that I’m custom made!”

437

HOT DAAAAWWWWWGGGGGG~~~!!!

[media=youtube]rks2NeGFf8Q[/media]

438

No R for console. Saw it coming even last year, but whatever. Namco is the only 3d player now.

There’s still VO:OT and KOF XII…

439

You can add me to the list for Oregon.

440

Hey Slash,

Whereabouts in Oregon do you reside?

We often play VF5 on Thursday nights in Gresham (not too far from Portland).

-Chanchai