If I ever pick VF up for real I will use Wolf because if Zass can pull off a combo that does 80% in any game then I can too. He is hella grimy, and I like it.
Hi Sics,
Well, it’s always hard to give a character recommendation and I doubt it would be the perfect advice…
Street Fighter like motions just aren’t in VF much. Much of playing VF is letting the stick go back to neutral almost all of the time, really (like tapping directions and buttons)–I play VF with a very loose hand. But…
Eileen is about as close to fireball motion happy as you can be in VF, but you’ll still be doing more VF like motions like PP, f+P a lot. She is pretty rush and string happy so she’s had decent success with more Street Fighter and especially Soul Calibur type players. Hard part is that maximizing damage can be a little tough, but she certainly has some draining combos.
For people that like playing Ken… Hard to say, but what comes to my mind anyways is Brad or Kage.
The main reason is that Kage is probably the character that most North American players can get the most mileage of and he can do a lot of damage. At first it’s easy to get pretty good at poking with Kage. Soon after, it’s not hard to do damage with Kage and he’s probably the easiest to dial a decent combo with in VF (Eileen can as well) once you grasp his move list. He’s just a very strong character at all levels of play, including intermediate.
The reason I also mention Brad is that Brad can really rush people, but also play a pseudo defensive game. His range might be confusing for beginners at first, but once you get comfortable with the range of his attacks, you can make some good transitions at mid range. Against beginners and intermediates he’s strong because of how confusing his setups are. He’s not hard to do combos with too. The tough part about Brad at high level play is his lacking throw game–but you don’t really need to worry about that until you are playing against really really good players.
One thing that’s tough about VF5 online now is that almost all the players left are the really good players–US and Japan. However, on the 360 version of VF, the AI is actually pretty good at helping players move up to the upper intermediate level of play–especially if you set it to expert.
Haha! Who is grimy? Wolf or me? lol.
By the way I’ve stopped doing that 80% low throw combo because most people know to escape the throw now. Instead I do his short shoulder combo which is unescapable, but does only 65%.
I totally know where you are coming from. I’m from the same place as you. I feel that I picked one character (wolf) more or less ignorantly, and I’m stuck with him because learning 1 char in VF is like learning all of ST :).
So I’ll just tell you that if you like losing ALL the time at first pick wolf. I lost 100 games before winning a single one online. You’ll do much better at first with Lei Fei, or Pai, or Jacky. But I would say go to the forums on virtuafighter.com and ask around for playstyles. VF is so different that street fighter, there aren’t really tiers or counterpicks the same way in VF. There are tiers, yes, but they are very compressed (at least at my level) because playskill >>> character choice.
RayBlade, thanks for the games last night! Playing VF is fun 
I will play VF again if R comes out on 360. I am Julien’s daddy.
GGs Nick…
Like I said, didn’t play VF at all since we last played. I’m still trying out options after a low punch (blocked/hit/counter hit). Lot of time, whatever I did after I landed a low punch would get stuffed by a counter low punch. Only thing I was able to do consistently was :uf:+G+K to punish. I think you caught on to :uf:+G+K after awhile :sad:. Seems like you have to buffer almost everything in the game. Missing a lot of combos early in our matches because I was trying to combo SF style. Also trying to integrate :d::df:+:p: after low punch.
Anyways, was fun games. :wgrin: SF4 felt simplistic after we went back to playing that.
Julian your worse in this game than I am in SF, don’t act like you know…
People in here, add me if you haven’t already.
I have beaten people in VF in tourney before… Does ‘can’t see me’
I had a lot of fun playing with you, man.
Buffering is important in VF, because you don’t want to throw away frame advantages and those frames go by very fast at 60 FPS. I will say that in online play, you have to factor an extra 2 or 3 frames in general too… But because VF has longer execution times than many other fighters, it works out still (but the bottom line is the disadvantage/advantage).
Anyways… It was good of you to start using uf+K+G as Kage’s anti-low-punch. It’s one of his best for sure, and it’s an excellent move. Furthermore, the disadvantage on block of that move is so tiny that it drives Kage’s opponents crazy.
One option to add to your uf+K+G flowchart… If your opponent blocks the uf+K+G, many people (though not the best) will tend to want to do a low punch after blocking it. If you think your opponent will do that (and I admit, I do throw out the low P more than I care to admit, after blocking this move), do the move again.
So… uf+K+G --> opponent blocks (and you think he will do low P after) --> uf+K+G = combo.
If your opponent is bouncing on the ground, and you think it’s likely he will not do a Quick Rise/Tech Roll, then d+P+K is your friend. If he knows what’s good for him, he’ll start teching after that. And if he starts teching after that, you can always do P+K+G to switch to shippunden stance and you have some options there.
BACK TO LOW PUNCH GAME…
In Offline Play, the technically right answer after blocking your opponent’s low punch is to do elbow (f+P). In online play, I recommend making low punch your quick attack option, because of lag. YOU HAVE TO BUFFER THIS VERY FAST. Pretty much, for a guy like me who doesn’t have the best reflexes… I have to know that I am blocking (that’s easy because it was my intent) and I see that the low punch is coming from my opponent, so I kind of buffer the attack on sight of that. I didn’t do it as a reflex after blocking the low punch–I did it as a reflex to a low punch coming in that I know I will block.
The elbow is a really good option because…
A) frame wise, it’s safe, it beats low punch mashers–only a character like Vanessa or specific anti-elbow attacks will get you. Furthermore, more people have anti-low-punch tactics in their heads than anti-elbow.
B) Elbow will stagger opponents who are crouch blocking or doing a low attack. And yes, properly executed, YOU WILL STAGGER SOMEONE DOING A LOW PUNCH IN THIS SITUATION. If you stagger your opponent, go for MID-ATTACK COMBO or THROW after a dash-in. Most people not in Japan will fall for the throw first.
C) Kage is badass with his elbow options. Let’s list them…
- Standard elbow stagger options give you a great advantage.
- On normal hit, you are free to throw out a safe poke (like low punch or high punch), or you can move away.
- Kage has two stances that he can do out of his elbow (hold F+P to do Jumonji stance, press P+K+G to do shippuunden stance)–KAGE’S ELBOW GAME IS A BITCH FOR HIS OPPONENTS.
D) If your elbow is blocked, that is the most basic fuzzy guard situation against opponents who do buffer their responses (good players).
Here’s how to do the blocked elbow fuzzy guard: f+P (blocked) --> df, df (crouch dash) --> n+G. All this is is crouching under throws and blocking all mid attacks.
–Warning, you will get low attacked out of this and you can get low punched out of this (in other words, it’s not really an option against scrubs so much as an option against good players).
TIP: There is a training mode setting specifically for this. I forgot what, but you can have the AI randomly do elbow or throw after it blocks your elbow (or at least something like this). Set it to that and practice the elbow fuzzy guard.
WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU LAND A LOW PUNCH:
If you land a Low Punch, you still have to do a quick attack.
Here are Kage’s frame stats on low punch:
Blocked = -5 frames (which is why your opponents 14-16 frame elbow will beat your 12 frame low punch)
Hit = +4 frames (your elbow (14 frames) and your DF+P (15 frames) will beat (and thus MC/interrupt/combo) anything slower than a 10 frame punch (I think only Eileen, Pai, and Sarah have 10 frame punches, if even them–and this would be a dual hit I think).
MC (counter hit) = +7 frames (you’re free to do just about anything faster than 18 frames, assuming your opponent is standing–if they are crouching, well you just shouldn’t do high attacks).
Another Note: almost all low punches are similar in stats. Lion is one exception with a frame slower low punch, but his has further reach than others.
While you’re starting out, basic options like elbow are a good idea after you hit with a low punch. A standing high punch isn’t a bad idea if you are sure your opponent will not do a crouching attack–mainly because interrupting opponents with a standing high punch P(G) puts you in a very strong situation in the game if you are fast.
BTW, Yellow Flash = MC.
The danger in Kage’s (crouching) DF+P is that it leaves Kage in big disadvantage (but nothing is guaranteed to the opponent). I believe this move stands Kage up, since he’s doing a short uppercut. If he is standing up with -8 frames (as the data implies for this move), then that means the opponent has the 50/50 situation on you (meaning, if the opponent throws you, there is no way to duck it, so you must either attack or input the throw escape). BTW, this is the same for many moves like this, such as Lion’s small uppercut.
The problem with doing a second low punch after the first low punch hit is that it’s a waste of advantage (you had better options) and you often do not have the range to land this. Against an experienced player, a whiffed low punch is a free pass to do any mid attack that can pressure you.
Also, you need to watch how your opponent reacts to being hit by low punches in the match. This is one of the first things you can learn about an opponent that can be turned back on them.
- If I’m playing sloppy, I tend to do low punches back because I don’t trust in my opponent’s ability to properly followup on their low punch–so you need to punish me if I"m being sloppy.
- When I’m serious, I tend to do standing block–IN THIS CASE, YOU SHOULD THROW FOR SURE (or do a low sweep or something, but Kage isn’t the best in this).
- If you watch Ray and he’s playing sloppy, he might tend to dodge in this situation. In that case, you should throw.
- Against a beginner, they often low punch back, you should do DF+P if you are so certain. If you want to be safe, you should definitely do f+P and prepare to take advantage of the stagger situation. Against good players, an elbow is very clean and recommended.
Hope this helps!
-Chanchai
Thanks for the info lol. And GGs after the tourney. Ray and you have totally different ways of going at defense.
Really good games after the tournament man!
I love how you’re a guy who observes how people play and learns as you play. Not everyone is like that.
And the final matches we had were great! I still want revenge… Took a lot for me to call it a night (Ray knows that down inside, I’ll want to go on until 6:30am when it comes to VF).
I fell into the bad logic if constantly thinking that on your uf+K+G game, you were going to switch back to low punch lol. That said, there’s more games in that situation… If I start pulling off ETE (Evade-Throw-Escape) option select, it’ll force you to do delayed attacks or using your half-circulars (d+K+G goes one way, standing df+P goes another).
It’s gonna be fun stuff. And I will say I have always hated dealing with Kage’s uf+K+G. It’s not so hard as much as myself having an irresistable impulse to fall into its trap.
I would like to hear you go into detail about what you see regarding the difference in Ray’s style and mine.
Some other national level players describe him as “abare.” That means he’s aggressive, implying that he’ll do counter-offense when he’s in a defensive position.
One thing I like about VF5 is that abare is a very valid and strong style, moreso than in VF4 Evo from what I’ve heard.
The ironic thing is that at the last few sessions, I feel like I’m “too abare” because there were lots of times where I still threw out offense in defensive situations.
On Ray’s abare style, I think it’s what makes his Vanessa a true pain in the ass to fight against for me. It really changes the rules on “moral” style play (moral is playing it frame safe or with the usual offense-defense flow) because she does have special considerations in her movelist.
Your Kage’s repertoire is getting scary. You are getting a lot more damage done in most situations now that you are recognizing more of the odd floats. You are using long range and close range very well, as all good Kage players should and do.
The area I see you easily improving next (you’re almost there already) is improving your further-mid range. Like just outside of elbow range. More specifically, sidekick range. The moves that come to my mind:
- df+K (and sometimes followup by doing the string df+K, P).
- d+K+G (this is more for punishing and pressuring them at this range)
- f+K+G (going for a combo)
- d+P+K (on hit, you can do the K finish, or keep pressure and closing in by switcing stance)
Currently I think you favor doing uf+K+G at this range. The danger with uf+K+G if it’s not specifically an anti-low is that a dodge by the opponent will leave Kage wide open for a long float combo.
Anyways, just my thoughts. I think you already do most of this stuff hehe.
-Chanchai
Play the player, not the character. Someone said that on GGPO the other day, but it really is good generic advice. You’ll get your revenge. I just got lucky. I wouldn’t have minded playing little bit more but oh well. I know you were taking it easy on me anyways 
Ray doesn’t like being on the defensive or he plays like he doesn’t. I’ve played him enough on different games that’s just how he plays. Rather then low or high punch, he’ll evade on most occasions when at disadvantage from what I could tell. You on the other hand will counter poke until you see an advantage. So your defensive styles are almost completely different from my scrubby vf pov. It takes getting used to going back and forth between the two of you.
I haven’t gotten comfortable with kage’s mid range game since I’ve started learning him. It seems like I get stuffed with whatever I try to do from mid range. So I have a tendency to stay out in long range or get up close and avoiding mid range altogether. Ray took advantage of that since he knows the characters he uses alot more than I do (like Vanessa). He would hit me out of whatever I was trying to do in midrange. If he used a quick aggressive character, I couldn’t adjust. I was able to take several games from him when he was using slower characters.
I’ve been trying to integrate those moves you listed. It’s just the range right outside of those moves is where I’m having the most trouble. And I think I’m still not using all of Kage’s moves yet. Feels like I’m falling into the pattern of using the same 8-10 moves over and over even if some of them are good. Stuff like back turned bs or other moves that cause stagger that I could/should be doing.
man.
i really need some pointers on the basics.
like:
can you “parry” (sidestep) mids?
when to throw and not to throw:
mack always seems to throw me after he blocks the last hit (or gets hit) by goh’s back to forward pk,p,p
so i’m confused on throw properties.
quick getups and how to roll to the side.
“tracking” moves.
i think that’s it for now.
starting to get better at landing goh’s floaty combos.
trying to work really hard on set ups and mind games.
Glad to give some pointers out ^^ First of all, here is a link to Goh’s Movelist for quick reference. Opening the movelist in another window or tab and referencing while reading these tips might be very helpful ^^
can you “parry” (sidestep) mids?
*The attack level (high, medium, low) doesn’t affect whether you can sidestep an attack or not. What does determine if an attack can be sidestepped is whether that attack is “linear” or “half-circular.” “Full-Circular” attacks (like most, but not all sweeps) cannot be sidestepped.
So the answer is, “yes, you can sidestep mids–if that mid attack is linear or half-circular.”*
The technical advice here is to check a movelist on how a move can be sidestepped or to figure it out from playing/practicing.
If you look at the movelist, you will see a column that has notes like:
“b.f” (can be sidestepped to both the back and front of Goh, this attack is linear)
"-.f" (can only be sidestepped to Goh’s front, this attack is half-circular)
“b.-” (can only be sidestepped to Goh’s back, this attack is half-circular)
"-.-" (cannot be sidestepped, this attack is full-circular)
The reason for this advice (to check the movelist) is that the direction an attack can be sidestepped is hardcoded into the game–it has nothing to do with hit-boxes or collision. If my opponent’s move can be sidestepped to his backside, even if his backside faces a wall (and thus logically you would think I could not sidestep it), I can still sidestep to his backside and it would work–even if I saw the move go through me.
Sidesteps, when done properly (done to the correct direction, done during the execution frames of the opponent’s attack and not before or after), are nothing more than a slight movement to the side and a few frames of invulnerability.
Often times this puts you in a slight advantage, but it does not always put you in an advantage.
when to throw
*For a beginner, all you need is 1) and 2), that’s it. Points 3-5 will take your game to the next level, but you must understand and implement 1) and 2) first.
*1) When you are sure your opponent will do standing block.
This is the bottom line answer and the most important consideration. ALL OTHER SITUATIONS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED SECONDARY TO THIS ONE PRINCIPLE ABOUT THROWING.*
Everything else is just a guideline or a helper. The match you are playing should tell you when your opponent will do a standing block.
"Does he do a standing block after his low punch is blocked? Or does he just do low punch again?"
If the answer is that he blocks (me), then you throw. If the answer is no (he’s either a masher or very aggressive), then you do not throw.
"I hit him with this poke, does he usually block after that? Or does he insist on attacking?"
Same basic thing. The important message here is to observe your opponent. What is his “response” to your “call?”
You are more likely to be successful with throwing against good players than beginners, because many beginners attack too much. And in VF, attacks virtually always stuff throw (this is something very different from most other fighting games).
*2) When you are sure your opponent will sidstep.
Everything I said in 1) applies here. The questions you asked about whether your opponent will block, you can ask if your opponent is likely to sidestep.*
*3) It is best to throw when the throw is guaranteed. The throw is guaranteed when I block an attack that has a “Guard Disadvantage” of -12 or worse. *
Normal throws (throws done right after blocking an attack fall in the “normal throw” category) have an execution of 12 frames, so they are guaranteed to connect in this situation.
However, remember that in this same situation, High Punch is also guaranteed and is your safest option (opponent cannot escape it, unlike throws). Therefore, PK is your solid “definitely doing damage” option. Throwing is your “slight gamble, doing more damage than PK” option.
Beginners should practice doing PK in these situations first because it’s free absolutely guaranteed damage. Also, Goh has a very good PK, because of options like PK,b games, etc…
*4) It is very good to throw in VF5 when your opponent whiffs an attack. Especially in VF5 (as opposed to previous VF games).
To be specific, you want to do the throw while your opponent is still recovering from the attack. After the point when the attack would have hit you, but before your opponent can move again.*
The best situation for this is after ducking a high attack. The other situation for this is when you are at close-mid range and your opponent whiffed, so you dash in and throw.
The reason I said this is especially true in VF5 (though it’s also true in prior VFs) is that VF5 implemented a new system called “0-frame throws.”
When you do a “0-frame throw,” your opponent’s frame window to input a throw escape is cut in half (and this greatly reduces the chance he will successfully escape the throw).
There are various conditions for 0-frame throws, but the easiest condition to understand is throwing somebody who whiffed an attack.
*5) It is a VERY GOOD OPTION, but not your only option, to throw when your opponent is in “NITAKU.”
It is a VERY GOOD OPTION, but not your only option, to throw when your opponent is in -8 disadvantage or worse and standing. In situations where your opponent is at -8 to -10 disadvantage and standing, we say that “your opponent is in NITAKU” (translated: “2 Choices” aka “50/50 situation”).*
This definition is probably too strict (the -8 to -10 part is somewhat a generalization) and the frames might be confusing. But here is the basic explanation and why:
In the NITAKU situation, your opponent cannot avoid throwing by crouching if you inputted your throw right away. He cannot duck under it, nor can he crouch dash under it (fastest way to crouch without doing a low attack, yes, faster than simply holding down and guard).
What this means is that your opponent only has TWO ways to avoid being thrown by you. Either he has to attack or he has to input a throw escape. No blocking or crouching will save him from the throw. If he does a “clashable” attack, you will get the throw clash, but the situation there is virtually neutral so at least you didn’t lose anything.
Your only danger here is if he does an “unclashable” attack–and most opponents will not do this unless they are razor sharp (and you are not mixing up between mid attacks and throws in NITAKU SITUATIONS).
*Against a lot of people, you will probably lean on one option more than the other (the options being throw or mid attack). This is natural against opponents who have tendencies on defense.
*Against good opponents and opponents better than you, however, your best bet is to create NITAKU situations and truly be random. This is one way of offsetting skill advantages and go back to simple gambling–if you can get your opponent into Nitaku anyways. At high level, you really do need to be random. In a tournament or online, you should definitely be random.
EASY TO KNOW NITAKU SITUATIONS
-
When you interrupt your opponent with P(G), you have an instant NITAKU situation right there. You will see a yellow flash when you interrupt your opponent, btw. Anyways, in this situation, do a mid attack or throw ASAP. And when I mean ASAP, I mean ASAP.
-
When you block your opponent’s attack and that attack is -8 to -10 to your opponent on block. (this takes experience and going through the movelist to know, but there are a lot of attacks with this condition). Simple examples are Lion’s short uppercut, Kage’s short uppercut, Brad’s rising uppercut, Akira’s super dashing elbow (f,f,f+P).
-
When you hit with an attack that is +8 to +10 on normal hit. Or when you interrupt with an attack that is +8 to +10 on counter hit. Goh does not have many of these.
mack always seems to throw me after he blocks the last hit (or gets hit) by goh’s back to forward pk,p,p so i’m confused on throw properties.
I don’t recall this move off the top of my head, but I will try to remember to check this out later on and see if I can give you specific advice.
Because it’s a high attack, I could understand if he ducked under it or you whiffed, but you are saying he’s blocking the last hit or getting hit by it. I will look into it for sure.
quick getups and how to roll to the side.
Tech Roll and Quick Rise have lenient timing in general–anytime while falling before you hit the ground.
If someone causes you to spin while falling down or slamming you into the ground, then the timing is very strict and you have to do it the moment you hit the ground.
P+K+G = Quick Rise, getting straight up.
d+P+K+G = Tech Rolling towards the players.
u+P+K+G = Tech Rolling into the screen. Toward the horizon.
There are situations where you must not do a specific option, but we can talk about those situations after you get the hang of Quick Rise and Tech Rolling first
“tracking” moves.
When your opponent does a string of attacks and you evade one of them, you might still get hit.
Sometimes, when you dodged an attack, your opponent’s next attack might still seem to come in after you.
Much of this is situation based and based solely on the move that was used to “track you” but… there is an underlying thing you should know when dodging:
After you dodge, if you attack, your opponent’s subsequent moves will realign towards you, as if suddenly guided on a track.
The most common situation is a string of attacks and you dodged the first part of it. If you simply stand still or move around, it is most likely that your opponent’s following attacks will not track you until he finishes the string. But if you attack, low punch for example, his string of attacks will start to track you right away.
Sometimes it is better to wait after evading part of a string. But best to act fast when evading a poke or big move.
There is one other thing:
*There are very few strings that punish people that evade right away.
The most basic example is Brad’s PK. If you get used to dodging Brad’s pokes, he can simply do PK and punish you for dodging. This is a high punch followed by a big high spinning roundhouse kick. No matter what, if you dodge that high punch, you will get hit by the kick.
There are very few sets of attacks like these in the game, but they exist.*
HOPE THIS HELPS, AJ!
-Chanchai
thanks!
i’ve been reading goh’s black book stuff for the majority of the day.
hey chanchai when are we gonna play? I’d like to play you! I played all VF this weekend and no SF4 lol
I’m down for some games tonight or tomorrow night. So Julien, Nick or anyone else for that matter hit me up. My connection depending on the roomies, tho’.
I’ll play some games if you don’t care playing against a xbox controller user lol (waiting on stick to ship)
Hey Zass!
I would really like to play you too! Unfortunately, I don’t personally have X-Box Live Gold on my Live Account at the moment… But I could always use one of my work’s accounts if it’s available.
For today, the only time I can play is about 5pm-6:00pm 
No 360 at my house (and internet connection is too far away from where it would be anyways–I’m so not paying $100 for a wifi adapter for the 360 when it is there).
Anyways, if you can play at 5pm-6pm tonight (Monday), please let me know either here in this thread or PM! Otherwise, I could probably schedule matches for Thursday evening during the Fight Nights
BTW, Wolf drives me freaking nuts.
-Chanchai
I’ll be on at 6:00pm. Outta practice so I’m worse than I already was, but it’s VF so I must play regardless. I’ll add you Yangsing.
So I’m getting on right now…alittle after 6 haha…
GGs. We should play some more some other time. random standing jab ftw lol