So… if VF5:R comes out for console, then will I have to sell my copy of VF5 for radical gameplay changes? Or will it be like the last Tekken revisions, where the characters all play the same and have most of the same combos, but just have a few minor changes to adjust to?
Nick: Btw, I just converted my newly repaired stick for the 360, so I’ve been playing quite a bit of non-online VF5 (dial-up at home). How would you rate the VF5 computer for playing against?
On the higher difficulties, it has totally raped me nonstop, but will playing against the CPU make me develop bad habits? Should I just stick to the training room at home and play people at Zach’s? I want to try and develop in VF some more, and you always seem to be knowledgable and willing to help with things like this.
There’s alot of new stuff added for the characters. There wouldn’t be a problem trading it in when the new comes out. Acutally that’s what you want to do.
Two new characters(well one’s returning)
Everyone has new moves and some existing moves have been changed dramatically. One example is Kage’s TFT(ten foot throw): Now it goes right into the Izuna drop( which was UP, P+G after the TFT) so you can’t combo off of it, BUT he has a new throw that makes up for it and actually looks nastier.
There are new half-wall throws and wall jumps for certain characters(El Blaze and I believe Eileen) that you can attack from or throw from(Certain characters have them in 4,EVO,FT,and 5 but not to the extent as in R and it was really situational).
Stages are alot more varied this time around. There are “alley stages” where the walls are high but the ring is slimer and longer(This where the wall jumps for Blaze seem to be effective), round stages(Taka’s stage) and some stages like Wolf’s will be High-Wall one round and Open the next as seen here.
So for now VF5 is good if you want to get into this game and get a feel for it and to see what changes were made to your character so you can know what to expect.
Online can be hit or miss. The CPU is really easy so it’s just for unlocking items really or putting your combos into a match…kinda.
That makes me sad… I guess that at least means I’m closer to being on the same level as other players, though.
Is the CPU really that easy? On Very Hard, even the beginner characters were challenging to me. 1st dan? I got perfected once or twice. If you mean on normal, then I can agree. But on the highest difficulty, this is harder to win at than ST arcade mode… :sad:
VF5R is gonna be a huge, huge change, it looks like. Nothing at all like the PS3 > xbox minor combo differences. The game actually just got released in japanese arcades, I believe, so you can find the new movelists over on VFDC, but you kinda have to hunt in the forums. Lots of system changes… OM evades no longer have the canned P or K followups, they’re just positional moves, and you attack however you want after using one. Lots of new animations, like because Taka is so big, all the throws look different on him, the game looks even better than before. I don’t know many character specific stuff, but with Aoi, her guard-cancels have been upgraded even more, and she now has canned attacks that can only be performed immediately after a guard-cancel. And tenchi stance was really buffed… she can cancel out of stance by moving in all 4 directions (couldn’t go forward before), and she has additional attacks that can only be used after shifting out of tenchi.
As for the CPU… it’s better than most games CPUs, but it’s still not that great. It’s sorta got three modes it can be in: 1) let you win mode, at low ranks, if you high punch while CPU is in crouch guard, it will actively stand up to force itself to be hit. 2) cheating mode… at really high levels, it’ll just block everything, and 0-frame throw you on reaction, and you don’t learn much. But then in the middle, there are some characters in quest mode that will spam certain moves, and have combo preferences like a human player, without being too cheap or too stupid, so you can effectively learn counters to certain situations from that.
The main problem with the CPU is that VF play tends to revolve around guessing games… you can do lots of things that look horrible on paper, but if you confuse your opponent, it can still be really effective. The CPU doesn’t ever let itself get tricked, or make mistakes, so you can learn some good fundamentals, but you’ll never get a good grasp of the mind games, which is ultimately what you need to know (and the reason the game is fun in the first place).
You should still play VF5 because it’s a great game in its own right Actually, you should keep playing because the fundamentals are generally the same (though a bit altered). However…
VF5R is a big change to VF5. Fuzzy Guard is still there, but more restricted from what I’ve heard. Most of the moves, while generally being the same look radically different. The pace has changed and I think it’s more intense with some of the canned followups being fast knockdown moves or butt-crumple moves, etc… The game overall looks different, but it still plays very much like VF–maybe a VF5 Hyper Fighting? Despite all the differences and tweaks, being good at VF5 will translate to being good at VF5R, though some adjustments seem to be necessary.
VF5 AI: While the PS3 version had horrible AI (it only used VF4 moves and it wasn’t that good), the 360 version has very good AI on the higher difficulty settings when playing in Quest Mode. I disagree with Sorias in that I would not label the AI as cheating. While the higher level AI has patterns that can lead to bad habits, it overall requires you to play a very pure and safe style where you know when your chances to damage the opponent are, and where you have to defend or play safe when you know the odds are not with you. You have to discipline yourself away from a lot of extended setups (though patterns still allow you to do some setups).
My recommendation is to force yourself to play very disciplined VF against the higher level AI. Try to interrupt the computer with your low punch or high punch (and thus forcing a true 50/50 game where you have a chance of doing the most damage), but only within the flow of the game. Don’t mash the low or high punch, just try to seize small advantages with it. Learn which basic pokes your character should fuzzy guard after. To break the pure style the proper way, learn the moments when the computer has a 50/50 situation on you (like when it blocks your -8 attack or when you get interrupted by a basic poke) and go for broke with an unclashable attack once in awhile (though the AI isn’t too fond of doing throws in these situations but it sometimes does). Doing very specific sabaki attacks or reversals can be dangerous, so try to stick with basic poking, movement, and whiff punishing.
I personally think the highest difficulty AI in VF5 on 360 is good training. Not the best or most ideal, but it’s pretty darn good in its own right, especially compared to other AIs. I certainly don’t think it’s cheap at all, but you really have to play safe until openings occur or the opponent pushes you into a 50/50 guess (hey, if he’s forcing you to go 50/50, you should do something as damaging as his options–or practice Evade-Throw-Escape-Guard if you want to try to nullify everything).
A healthy mix of playing the AI, playing offline opponents, and when possible playing online opponents–is very good for your VF. Playing just the AI can take you to a point but it is clearly limited, however, it still has that capability of taking you to a point.
I should note that a lot of my practice in VF over the years was against the AI. I have some bad habits here and there, but the main thing for me was that I was practicing VF regardless and I tried to keep track of what the AI was letting me do. But in the end, focusing on a “pure style” is probably the safest way against playing against the AI. Playing with “setups” or “style” is where bad habits begin. But playing the game in a safe way is a way you can play against the AI and humans pretty alike. It’s also how you can move from an iteration of one game to another without tweaks altering your game too much. It’s all about the fundamentals
Kuenai, forgot to add in a few of the elements of that pure style to focus on when playing against AI. Granted, it’s obvious in fighting games, but it’s always worth mentioning:
-Whiff Punishing (part of properly playing spacing)
-Guaranteed Attacks (when you block certain attacks, some of your attacks are guaranteed, usually PK or throw)
-While you should not abuse it, backdash is a valid option after hitting your opponent with a low punch–you don’t want to do it too much, but it’s effective and works on both AI and humans now and then. It’s also a way of setting up whiff punishment. It’s hard to call this “pure” but it’s a very legit option imo and should be practiced by those who can at least followup it up with punishment.
Like humans, the AIs do tend to have profiles of tendencies towards being vulnerable to either a mid, a throw, or a mix of these in the 50/50 situations. Don’t think the AI will only get hit by one or the other. With each Quest Opponent you fight, try to figure out which profile the AI is set to. Probably the first thing you should look for. I do think the 360 AI is good at forcing you to focus on the following potential openings/weaknesses of opponents:
-Tendency to block high or block low after certain situations.
-Tendency to attack in certain situations.
-Tendency to evade or not evade in certain situations.
-Susceptible to low attacks–or good at punishing low attacks.
Even if the AI did not mix these things up (I believe it does in VF5’s AI though), I would force myself to ask these questions every time that I play, even against a dumb AI. It’s just a good habit.
My greatest weakness a year ago and occasionally still is that I don’t watch my opponent enough. But I’ve been working on it, and even when playing an AI, I force myself to work on it. To evaluate it as if I was not fighting an AI, to remind myself that I need to ask those questions and that I need the opponent to answer those questions for me. I think that’s part of the “pure style.”
I’m sort of the opposite of you, Chanchai… even back in VF4 days I tended to practice more against human opponents, I just find the AI kind of boring. I’m more conscious of trying to deduce my opponent’s decision making process than I am of strictly understanding the best options out of a situation.
I would agree that the AI doesn’t really cheat, it’s definitely playing in a way that’s possible for a human, even at the highest levels, it just really emphasizes that moral playstyle which isn’t required to be a good player, it’s just the most low risk way of playing. For example, using Aoi… if you go into Tenchi against the expert AI, you will get thrown pretty close to 100% of the time. That doesn’t mean that Tenchi is bad… it’s just that the computer’s reaction time is unrealistically good. However, it is true that Tenchi leaves you vulnerable to throws, and if you’re overusing it so much as to be predictable, a real opponent will do the exact same thing, so you can get a good overall impression of how to value each move.
hello guys! how are you doing? I have been to japan for 8months, but finally I got back to the us. unfortunately, I am not in seattle now. I am in Albany, NY. I don’t know, but in the future, I may visit you guys again. I just feel like visiting Chanchai around ThanksGiving days as I visited last year, do you remember?
well, I hope see you guys again and keep playing VF5! I may go to next evo, I have no idea.
how do there points work?, i don’t understand how someone can win 4/4 games and have 60 points where someone in another group wins 4/4 games and has 62 shrugs
For this tourney, each and every round matters, but they still take account in who beats whom.
Games are set 5/9 rounds, 1st to 3 games.
Example:
Adam Yuki vs RBX Game 1 = 5-2 Adam Wins
Adam Yuki vs RBX Game 2 = 5-4 RBX Wins
Adam Yuki vs RBX Game 3 = 5-3 Adam wins
Adam Yuki vs RBX Game 4 = 5-4 Adam Wins
Winner - Adam Yuki = 19 points / RBX = 14 points.
In my case vs Patrick Gunn
RBX (5) - Pat (0) Game 1
RBX (5) - Pat (0) Game 2
RBX (5) - Pat (0) Game 3
RBX Wins 15-0 vs Pat Gunn - Flawless Victory - Fatality!
Most matches were something like 5-2 or 5-3.
I think this system did a good job sorting out the good and bad players, but 3/5 rounds could’ve shown similar results.
Necro bump. Looks like I’m late but I got the xbox360 version the other day and I’m getting wrecked on xbox live. Nick, we didn’t get a chance to play VF last time but next time.
add me as a friend yangsing. I’m up for playing, even if you see me on SF4 or another game I like playing VF and will usually be up for switching games and playing!
Yangsing, really glad you picked up the game! Online is rough because most of the people playing VF5 are either the diehard westerners (many of my peers) and a lot of people in Japan as well.
Well, to be specific, it’s mostly the serious players. The level of play is quite high. I’m glad I’m hanging in there when I play, but it’s really really high level and really hard for people new to the VF4/VF5 systems.
We’ll work on it though. Though Akira is a character that requires a lot of work to maximize his damage. He’s also very linear, which is a big factor in VF4/VF5–I’d be happy to go over some of the “new gen VF” stuff that’s been stuffing your really good VF3 style game.
Maximizing the damage from your throws is a big first step. Practice doing big damage from b,f+P+G and b,d+P+G. Getting better at using f,b+P+G catch throw can help too–know your options from it.
When your opponent is in disadvantage (ex. after you hit them with an elbow or low punch, after their elbow or low punch is blocked), consider the possibility that they will evade. Akira is so loaded with linear attacks, that it becomes the habit of many people to use evades. Furthermore, they’ll use Evade-Throw-Escape a lot against Akira (example, dodge down, buffer in two throw escapes–namely down and forward). A few things to do to punish this:
O Use semi-circular attacks. Akira has some and they are actually pretty decent. If you catch Ray dodging too much, use the semi-circular attacks. You’ll need to know which ones attack to your chestside and which ones attack to your backside to know which ones are the right ones. Against someone like Ray, or even me, the tendency is to dodge down. Some people are opposite. Now that Ray has read this, don’t be surprised if he makes a focused effort at dodging upwards against you, but let the match tell you which way he’s leaning towards.
O Use throws and mix them up. If they are definitely dodging you, then I recommend using the catch throw (f,b+P+G).
O Delay your attack–this is mostly advice for offline play but it does work online too. If the advantage you have on them is small (like after hitting them with an elbow or blocking their elbow), then it’s worth considering throwing away your advantage and delaying your attack so that they will hit the dodge direction BEFORE YOU EVEN ATTACK–this will put them in a vulnerable state because they’ll do the crappy sidestep and you’ll almost definitely hit them with anything. A good way of doing this is to do a delayed super dashing elbow after a dash (ex. hit forward 4 times instead of 3-- f,f,f,f+P).
While Akira has reversals, he shouldn’t really do them… But do know that Akira’s tendency to use Mid-attacks is the reason reversal characters almost always reverse mid against him. Anyways, if you are going to go for a reversal, buffer in throw escapes during the time the reversal whiffs. That way you’ve option-select protected yourself a little bit. You can also buffer a dodge too.
Remind me to go over Fuzzy Guarding when we play in person (we don’t really use it in Portland, but it’s super important and I do actually use it when playing outside of Oregon).
All the tips I put above aren’t complete basics. They’re more specific things for you to get an idea of some of the dynamics that have changed in VF since VF3 days.
Here’s a good translation of the Arcadia Mook on VF5’s (The Black Book) Strategy Section for Akira:
I’ve had VF5 for a while & I haven’t gotten into it as much as the SF series. I saw some high level vids & it looks redic! I want to get into it more, but the engine is so different & complicated, I have a hard time relating to a character or wanting to invest a huge amount of time to a character I’ll end up regretting… Anyone have a recommendation as to what character would fit my playstyle? I play Ken in HDR/3S/SF4… About 40% rushdown 60% defensive turtle style mix… I don’t play charge characters at all. Shoto-move joystick motions are more natural for me. Anyone have a recommendation?
Actually, you should keep playing because the fundamentals are generally the same (though a bit altered). However…