Ninjas have high standards! The Tsumuji Loop Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

Updated: 6-20-2010
Minor update: 2-11-2011
**AE Update: **6-24-2011

What is a tsumuji loop?
The tsumuji loop is a character specific combo typically consisting of lk.tsumuji , st.LP. Thanks to lk.tsumuji’s hitstun, Ibuki has just enough frame advantage to link a st.LP, and then add to the combo. The most common follow up is st.LP , st.MK xx Neckbreaker. mk.tsumuji can sometimes be used instead of lk.tsumuji, but it’s far more character specific due to the greater pushback.

Why tsumuji loop?

  1. more damage
  2. more stun
  3. more meter gain
  4. more mixup potential

To give you an idea of how much of a damage/stun increase to expect (in AE): a typical vortex combo would be:

kunai , TC4 xx Neckbreaker (250dmg, 352stun)
To up the ante, you can instead do

kunai , TC4 , st.LP , st.MK xx Neckbreaker (276dmg, 392stun)
for a 10.4% increase. Once you introduce a basic tsumuji loop,

kunai , TC4 xx lk.Tsumuji , st.LP , st.MK xx Neckbreaker (315dmg, 423stun)
you up your damage/stun by 26%. If you instead go for st.MP , st.MK starter, such as

kunai , st.MP , st.MK xx lk.Tsumuji , st.LP , st.MK xx Neckbreaker (324dmg, 477stun)
this goes up to 29.6%. And finally if you go for double loops on applicable characters:

kunai , st.MP , st.MK xx lk.Tsumuji , st.LP , st.MK xx lk.Tsumuji , st.LP , st.MK xx Neckbreaker (350/496)
Ibuki’s damage/stun output increases a whopping 40% from her standard kunai , TC4 xx Neckbreaker bnb. Going by this, it’s possible to almost stun most characters after just two mixups. And if you go for a reset just before stunning them, you can most likely win the round right there.

By “more mixup potential” I mean that since your combo is greatly extended, you have more places where you can purposely drop the combo and go for a reset, or otherwise do something unsuspected. A primary example of this would be doing two tsumuji loops on Abel, but instead of ending with a neckbreaker, you SJC your st.MK and crossup with j.LK or j.MK. Another example might be ending the tsumuji loop with a command dash to get right back into your opponent’s face, instead of ending with a neckbreaker.

So why not always tsumuji loop?
lk.tsumuji , st.LP is a 1frame link, which cannot be plinked unless you plink (or blink) with the back/select button. If you happen to drop the link, you lose a lot of precious momentum that Ibuki relies on. Tsumuji loops are also character specific.

Dodeka’s explanation of tsumuji loops:

Ok so I wanna master Ibuki and do some tsumuji loops, where do I start?
Pick any loop listed in the chart and use that in place of your usual TC4 combo.

Character specific testing
Methodology:
I’m 99% sure these results thus far are correct. I first did the loop on Abel, which appears to be the character with the largest hitbox/least pushback, or something special that let’s him eat ridiculously long tsumuji loops. Then I recorded it and played it back against the rest of the cast.

Results:

Notes:
Usually if the loop doesn’t work, the st.LP 1 frame link would whiff, signaling that the character is too far for the st.LP to link. There were a few exceptions, at least that I remember:

Abel: If you’re going full tsumuji loops, your last st.MK may have to be done slightly earlier. I’m not sure but doing the last st.LP , st.MK feels more like a 2 frame link than 3 frame link. Other people can try loop 1 on him and see what they think.
Blanka: On certain loops, he would block the st.LP, which got me thinking maybe I’m just not timing the st.LP correctly. After 5 minutes of attempting the loop and I don’t get it at least once, I am 99% sure the loop doesn’t work.
DeeJay: The last st.MK would whiff, but the st.LP would hit. I have concluded that it must be due to the pushback on the last st.LP that he’s too far to link a st.MK. Also normally when you’re in range for a st.LP, you’re also in range for st.MK, but after a tsumuji, it must have shoved his top hitbox (his face or something) forward for the st.LP to link but the rest of his hitbox is too far for st.MK to hit.
E.Honda: Same as Blanka.
Guy: something about this character changes the timing of the tsumuji , st.LP 1 frame link, such that the st.LP has to be done slightly, fraction of a second later than usual. If you stick to your normal loop timing, the st.LP will be too early and won’t come out.

There were more characters blocking the st.LP instead of it whiffing, especially on loop 8 (cl.st.MK xx lk.tsumuji , st.LP , st.MK xx Special (opponent crouching)). This could mean possibly that the opponent recovers faster or something. If you were doing a tsumuji loop and banking on the fact that lk.tsumuji , st.LP acts like a frame trap (against like mash jab or something) in case you mess up, then maybe they actually have enough frame advantage to counter hit your st.LP. Not 100% sure about this. Someone with better knowledge of game mechanics can correct me if I’m wrong.

2

Going off of Akuma’s old loop. The loopable characters were generally those characters that were “top heavy” in the sense that their standing hit boxes were huge up top. Honda has a huge hitbox down low, but standing attacks generally can not take advantage of it.

Here were the characters that had the best results from Akuma’s loop

S Tier

Sagat

A Tier

Seth
Abel

B Tier

Guile
Balrog
Vega
Rufus
Gief

And everyone else was either mildly or unloopable. There are of course going to be slight differences with Ibuki. What made Sagat so loopable with Akuma was the fact he flinches forward extending his hit box from his neutral hitboxes. I don’t know if Ibuki can hit the same spot that Akuma did since her s.LP is a little shorter.

3

Ok now I can confirm with 99% confidence that loop 1 definitely does not work on Guy, due to the huge pushback even after one tsumuji loop. What seems to happen is that maybe possibly due to the pushback, some of the moves are hitting at the very last active frames, making the timing of the st.LP too early, hence why st.LP was not coming out.

4

does it matter if the opponent is crouching during the tsumuji?

also, any advice on hitting that st.lp after tsumuji? trying to learn the timing but coming slowly…

5

I’m about 99% sure that you can’t link st.LP after lk tsumuji if the opponent is getting hit while crouching. Well, that’s the case for Ryu anyway. Not sure about bigger characters like Abel. No access to a console right now so I can’t check.

Personally, it seems like you have to hit the st.LP almost immediately after LK tsumuji. Maybe try hitting st.LP right after the 2nd LK tsumuji blade disappears? Once you hit it a few times, try to remember the timing. Then try to do it again, with that timing in mind. Gah, I’m not sure if this advice is actually helping or not… ^_^" But this particular link takes awhile to get down, like maybe a few days, so don’t bad if you can’t get it consistently just yet.

6

Thanks for the advice. I haven’t put any major time into the link just yet as I want to make sure my basics are solid first but this looks like an important thing to learn if I want to master Ibuki.

I’ll try out your advice on learning the link and update this thread with advice from my experience.

I’m pretty sure you cant p-link lp, correct?

sorry about the newb questions btw 10er here lol.

7

Nah, can’t p-link lp or lk. =(

I’ll see if I can find an actual visual cue to help link the st.LP. I think “when the 2nd blade disappears” is valid, but I haven’t attempted this loop in about 2 weeks. Hmm…

Let me know how it goes!

8

Hmm, it should be impossible for your opponent to crouch during the tsumuji since the st.MP of TC4 should automatically make them stand up. Unless you’re doing some other starter for your loop, like st.MK xx lk.tsumuji.

Also yeah don’t fret bro. It’s going to take time before getting 1 frame links down consistently. Heck I’ve played like a million games with Ryu and I still can’t get his sps , cr.HP 1 frame link at least half the time.

9

some notes about it this.

First the double loop works on Deejay but you can’t do it from TC4. Instead, start the loop from st. mp, st. mk xx lk tsumuji.

Single loop also works on Akuma, Fuerte, Honda, Ibuki, and Makoto, but not from TC4. You’ll have to start it from something different. Moreover, it works on Honda standing and crouching.

Other notable starters for the loops are:

st. mk/cr. mp (whiff punishing, or for quick and easy punishes)
st. mp, link st. mk (mentioned earlier, good for focuses/huge punishes, and can do two st. mp on fatties and still do a single loop on them)
far st. lp, link st. mk (you’d be surprised the amount of stuff you can punish with this, spacing dependent however)
cr. hp (for huge punishes vs. fatties, have to sjc the lk tsumuji for it to work and can only do a single loop on the fatties)

10

Thanks for the chart! I was about to make one myself except only for loop 2 as you have it. For some characters though that can’t go into the lk loop after the target combo can at least be jabbed and st mk after it into w/e for a little extra dmg and its a 2 frame link which isn’t that difficult to do, although I don’t have a list of who.

2 characters that you can do that on that you can’t do loop 2 on are cammy and ibuki IRC off the top of my head.

11

Actually you can do the loop on Ibuki, just not from tc4.

12

I’m certain you can do the loop on Ibuki from TC4. Unless I’m missing something within the convo. Lol

13

According to the chart you can’t and I am pretty sure it is accurate. Also I mean only from TC4 since its the main combo I use after a knockdown.

14

That’s weird I’m sure I did a loop on an Ibuki using TC4. I also went into training mode just to verify and it does work, inputs are: dash, s.LP MP (1hit) HP, LK Tsumuji, s.LP MK xx ANY. I find the timing to link s.LP diff. than usual, I had to time it like a frame or two earlier while Ibuki was still recovering from the Tsumuji. If none of ya’ll are getting this, I guess my SSF4 patch was glitched.

15

There’s the difference. In my testing , I did the full 2 hits of cl.st.MP, as it clearly says in the chart.

If you say it works with only 1 hit, then there must be some sort of additional pushback with the 2nd hit.

Edit: Ok I tested around, and it seems Ibuki and El Fuerte are the ones you want to do only 1hit of the st.MP in TC4.

16

You can plink lk, with lp!

17

might as well add meter gain. a full super is 1000

with neckbreaker ender, without
231,225
215,191
191,185
175,151
208,190
170,134

also, anyone know how well the loops work adding in cr.hp xx jump, kunai before target combo , mk, or whatever else starters?

18

Hmm. Are you sure meter gain scales as well? I thought it was always constant.

Yeah those numbers can’t possibly be correct. I just tried loop 1 and I definitely gain at least a bar (250).

Ok with more loop testing, I found out there’s a loop that works on THawk. The problem is that simply doing standard TC4 , st.LP , st.MK xx SP is much easier (2 frame link) and does more dmg and stun.

I guess it could be a decent alternative in case you’re unsure if your opponent is close enough for the full TC4 (sometimes the 2nd hit of st.MP whiffs), or if you’re unsure if the lk.tsumuji after TC4 will push them back too far.

19

I think I found my mistake. Basically meter gain from special moves are broken up into 2 parts. One you get even if the move whiffs and the other if the special move hits (much like normals). I’m guessing the meter gain from whiffing doesn’t get affected by combo reduction and the other one does. If anyone has time, fix those numbers for me. They shouldn’t be off by more than 50 though. That’s what I get for plugging in meter in place of damage in my damage reduction spreadsheet, though it works for stun.

With that theory, I get: 258 with neckbreaker and 222 without for loop 1. Don’t have time to calculate the others.

20

Good Shit Mingo! I was planning on trolling, but I said to hell with that since this was to useful to troll for. All the testing are spot on too! Request a sticky maybe?