what i hear from scrubby people around here in the local game room
"man i dont like street fighter i can’t pick eddy gordo / amingo / bang / killik / robert garcia / iron man and people just throw fireballs all day, this shit is mad gay. i dont like how street fighter is all about just being cheap lets put in mvc2 instead"
and then they get on marvel and pick 3 iron mans and keep doing smart bombs while calling the other iron man projectile assist and then call me cheap when i win with basically anything
or “man i’m really good at guilty gear i can do the instant kill move”
“Are the voices of all the scrubs outweighing the voices of veterans? If so, would that make any future games that Capcom releases too scrub-friendly?”
Yes. The new people outweigh the veterans. Will Capcom pay attention to them? Yes.
however, it’s important to note that while they pay attention to scurbs, they know where to draw the line.
The mentality of “if you dont like ___, then play ___” works to a degree. It sucks for someone who wants to see a remake or a sequel but doesn’t want it to be the way SF4 was. I think the OPs main point was to make the new ____ better than it is now by discussing the power of the many many many new people that have joined SRK since 4 came out.
i feel like there is a way to be a cheeseballin button masher in every game. so why care about the new player. i remember when games were coming from japan and they basically said to America “here is your game either your gonna play it or not” " here, try this hard as perry system."
i have no problem with cheese i think everyone was there once. i remember playing sf2 turbo on the sega thinking i was the shit going to play at the arcade and getting raped, then being taught, then winning and now teaching… its the circle of life people.
If it was “alive” it was on life-support. We were playing games that are 10 years old or older, using emulation to play even older games just because we could find some competition online.
I think the ones who have been the most destructive to the development of the community - have been us.
Not everyone who starts playing SF is good. Nor do many of them want to be. They just want to have fun throwing fireballs and dragon punches and pound out a few wins if they can. If you remember back to the arcade days and the crowds of people around a SFII machine, remember that not everyone watching actually played. Some of these people knew they weren’t any good, so rather than waste the quarter and get destroyed they just hung back and watched. They would go back to the arcade later and play when not so many people were around. And remember when you actually had your opponent next to you? He sucked, but you could see at least he was trying. So maybe you sandbagged a round or so, took a few hits you wouldn’t ordinarily have.
These days with online play, all of that is lost. So if random guy gets matched up with someone who goes to tournaments, there’s a pretty big gap in skill there. Random guy doesn’t know this until he actually starts playing. And with how informal online is, tournament player will probably destroy random guy and not think twice about it.
That can get pretty discouraging.
I used to be a scrub. I could beat human opponents, sure, but I know I was a scrub. I used to think beating the game on 8 stars actually meant something. I liked playing, but the controls on the SFA3 machine at my arcade were perpetually broken, so there was no point. And then I got into playing 4-player games with dorm-mates. But I got back into SF when CvS1 came out. I went to a different school with a much better arcade. There were some really solid players there and I became friends with them. I was a scrub, so I lost consistently. But I wanted to keep playing with these guys, and I didn’t want to continue losing, so it motivated me to become better. I bought a MAS stick and spent hours in training mode practicing my execution. Before, it didn’t really matter if I couldn’t do short, short, super, or if I couldn’t get DP’s out on the right side. Now it did. And I got better and as I could now fight them more competitively, the game became fun. Being my friends, they also helped me out - gave me tips on execution or pointed out holes in my defense, stuff like that.
I also tried to get into MvC2. I’d missed out on the whole Vs series, so I was way behind. I had some really good MvC2 players among my friends who were willing to teach me, but I just felt so far behind. Even if I could memorize combos, I didn’t know when to call assists or how to punish my opponent’s assists, anything like that. Every time I played, I got destroyed pretty badly. Even though I had the right environment to learn the game, it just felt too out of reach. I gave up on it and pretty much have never gone back to MvC2 to this day.
Now think about all the new SFIV players. They go online and maybe they can fight people of their level, that’s great, but then maybe they run into that really good player who just dismantles them. If this happens enough, it will discourage them from playing. But then you have the ones who think “Hey, maybe I’d like to get better!” and they go on SRK or whatever looking for tips or info. And we call them scrubs and dumb 09’ers and whine about how much we hate the game.
It hasn’t exactly been the best environment for nurturing new players. SFIV got them to the door, but then we answered it, punched them in the face, and said “PLAY TO WIN LOSER!” before slamming it.
If we want more people playing seriously and competitively, we have to give them the environment to do so. Rather than insulting them and slamming them for being stupid 09ers, we should have been helping them to learn. It hasn’t been a complete onslaught, but the negativity was enough for the Cannon’s to remove join dates and reputation and re-design the site in hopes of making it more user-friendly.
So I don’t think the new players have hurt the community. Rather, the community hurting itself by turning its back on the new players. If someone actually bothered to come to SRK, register an account, and post a question - even if that question is the stupidest thing in the world, at least that person was trying to improve themselves in some way.
i feel like there is a way to be a cheeseballin button masher in every game. so why care about the new player. i remember when games were coming from japan and they basically said to America “here is your game either your gonna play it or not” " here, try this hard as perry system."
i have no problem with cheese i think everyone was there once. i remember playing sf2 turbo on the sega thinking i was the shit going to play at the arcade and getting raped, then being taught, then winning and now teaching… its the circle of life people.
Holy shit, this thread grew when I wasn’t looking! A lot of posts I’d like to comment on, both on and off-topic:
Durrrrrr “games can’t have mechanical skills”. I wonder what I could have meant, then? That SSF2T requires more mechanical skill to play? No, impossible, I couldn’t have meant the obvious!
It’s a good thing. If 1 out of 10 players that got introduced to fighters with SF4 stay in the scene (and possibly branch off to other games), its release was already worth it in my book. My problem isn’t with Capcom releasing SF4 or the newcomers it’s attracting, my problem is with the game’s quality and what it could mean to the quality of future fighters. Will “meatier”, deeper 2D fighters return to/keep being made if the genre becomes popular again? Or will SF4’s success as a slower, simplified fighter lower the 2D fighter bar for the immediate future? What use is the scene springing back to glory if the games are going to be shadows of what they were?
Such as who? Who is being an ass? There’s always someone to post saying people are being grumpy and unreasonable, not specify anything, then vanish. I’m actually finding the posts in this thread unusually interesting and well-developed.
Capcom (hell ANY company) dicking the game down with larger reversal windows and special move shortcuts to cater to new players (scrubs who don’t know what the hell they’re doing) who are too stupid/lazy to practice, and just want something to play and beat others without having to learn too much hurt the game. Since Capcom seems to be chasing that dollar even harder these days (doing games with 3d graphics so they can crank them out as quickly as possible), I think they just might be heading down the road to scrub-dom, until sf goes from the looney tunes it’s at now, to something pocket fighter-esque. Coincidentally, since they’re fucking around with 3d entirely now…ahem: Capcom, wtf?! More Rival Schools, More Power Stone!! Why are you neglecting your other IPs?
You still have tough links to do. I can’t play viper 100%, or Gen. I can’t connect Rufus’ BNB.
On the other hand, I can play defense much better, if I see a fireball comming at my face, I don’t really fear it. The game is slow enough that I can think for a split second and not commit like in the other games. I know that my timing will be right when i neutral jump.
I can mash jab and smack you in between your link. And shoryuken for an FADC combo. No timing required.
I don’t feel pressure at all when you are trying to bully me with threats of pokes or fireballs because the stages are huge and I can run away and come back to establish position. If this were any other game, I would be out in 15 seconds against a good player, but you have to respect the game system because of this, and not the person behind the sticks. It takes longer than it should for someone who sucks to die because of the huge screen.
And teching throws…Let’s give a guy 2180381 seconds to tech a throw…yeah. not to mention other side effects of teching throws.
And supers and ultras…hated supers when it came out in SSF2T.
It’s a strange mix between the two.
But i don’t think new players are hurting SF. Look at poker. Anyone can play that. It’s simple. That’s why people like it. But just because anyone can play it, not ANYONE can play it. The best are still the best at SF4, and to my knowledge, poker tournaments are somewhat consistent (it may be more consistent if tournament formats were different, but i digress)
I can agree with this, Capcom can “3D” whatever the hell franchise they want as long as they promise me a new Rival Schools, Powerstone, and maybe even MegaMan Legends 3 …
I think like a lot of us, I am torn between the two opinions: The game needs to be easier to attract new players to the scene but, if it deviates too far from what I consider SF it makes me want to resentful of it. I think the middle road is possible (OPTIONAL styles of the game, with shortcuts/trades/ect and without: a tournament edition of the game if you will). I agree that SF4 feels watered down compared to previous incarnations but, it was needed to get more people in the door. Hell, WE ARE AT CEASARS PALACE THIS YEAR! Would that have happened without 1000+ kids showing up for the watered down sf? I really believe it wouldn’t have.
I agree with this opinion A LOT! Minus the Sirlin’s opinion is dumb (especially since you seem to know where it stems from). To me, if you really wanted to play, there wouldn’t BE an option when trying to make tactical decisions and execution is interfering. If you are dedicated, you will make the effort to get whatever option you need to rely on but can’t a reality through practice. If you can’t rainbow hurricane when you DP a sim limb with ken and it keeps costing you matches, well you know what time it is.
Hit the lab
Practice the rainbow hurri
???
Profit
I really loved the execution standards for high level play in all the “classics” ST, VS, CVS2, MVC2, 3S. I miss that part of SF and I wish it would make a triumphant return for SSF4T (lol) or whatever other Capcom games that decide to drop.
I’ve become skeptical of people who say they want to learn, because saying (or in this case posting) doesn’t equate to reality. I can’t prove anything of people behind internet forum accounts, but in my experience in the arcade, I’ve seen a lot of people who ask players for tips on how to get better, and as soon as they sit down to play their next game, they are doing the exact things they were advised against. And it’s not just once, but numerous times. If people have the audacity to do this face to face in arcades, I’m very confident it happens even more online.
You can argue that the SF communities response to the influx of new players was too harsh, but I don’t think its totally out of line to be unwilling to help EVERY new player. For most American SF players, SRK is their primary resource to improve, and when the legitimacy and availability of it is compromised for the sake of players who are likely to quit very soon, I think its natural to want to force them to play by the rules.
Although I’d also say its nice to see SRK’s love affair with rep, join dates, and every other meaningless indicator of rank, over.
Well to be fair that might just be a little “Damn you muscle memory”, you know like when you find out an improvement for a combo you’ve been doing and think “I must do tha- FUCK!” as you autopilot straight back into the one you’ve been doing after getting an opener.
There is a chance that after a while it’ll have sunk in and become the new norm.
I think the reason those people continue to do the things they were advised against, is because they aren’t really thinking when they’re playing the game, and playing by instinct.
in ST and I’m playing against a good Ryu player, I have to make an effort to tell myself “Don’t randomly chicken wing from full screen, don’t randomly chicken wing from full screen, just walk forward then block - dont random chicken wing don’t random chicken wing!”
So I think in your example, it’s not that they’re trying to piss you off after saying they want to learn - they’re just so bad they aren’t even putting thought into what they’re doing on screen. they may cognitively know not to jump in at Ryu, but the way they’ve been playing the game for the last x amount of days has conditioned a really bad tendancy.
Autopiloting is exactly what I’m talking about, and when you go back into the game and autopilot again, that shows an unwillingness to learn to me.
@SimpleKiss : Yes to me what you’re describing is autopiloting. If you don’t plan to consciously change your gameplay in the match, why ask for tips in the first place? I don’t think its an effort to piss people off at all. I think people just don’t feel like getting better even if they act like they do, regardless of whether it pisses me off or not.
I liked playing, but the controls on the SFA3 machine at my arcade were perpetually broken, so there was no point. And then I got into playing 4-player games with dorm-mates. But I got back into SF when CvS1 came out. I went to a different school with a much better arcade. There were some really solid players there and I became friends with them. I was a scrub, so I lost consistently. But I wanted to keep playing with these guys, and I didn’t want to continue losing, so it motivated me to become better. I bought a MAS stick and spent hours in training mode practicing my execution. Before, it didn’t really matter if I couldn’t do short, short, super, or if I couldn’t get DP’s out on the right side. Now it did. And I got better and as I could now fight them more competitively, the game became fun. Being my friends, they also helped me out - gave me tips on execution or pointed out holes in my defense, stuff like that.
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