Ah that might be a stretch…Rose is LT, but Chun and Dictator are pretty solid mid.
Chun and Dic are VERY winnable character, but you gotta truly outplay your opponent. No DP FADC universal option select nonsense, and both of them hardly benefit from the FADC mechanism, outside of a desperation FADC out of a special as a way to surprise your opponent.
I’m not complaining, more like pointing out that lots of people play characters that simply don’t have that kind of bullshit.
Backbone Entertainment, actually, not really Capcom.
It’s a different problem, but yep, I agree
I think that this can be solved if the FADC is enabled ONLY if the attack is actually hitting and not being blocked
However, what about Vega and Guile? This can be a nerf for them. I haven’t seen much of Vega FADCing ST, but I’ve seen Guiles doing so with FKs. They don’t gain any additional damage if the FK/ST actually hits [Well Vega can get an EX ST but that can be done without the FADC]. If the FADC on block didn’t exist they were even more low tier [Heck, I think or at least it seems that LK FK recovery is >= HP SRK recovery]
So, should removing safe on block attacks should apply only to SRKs in your opinion?
Heh…I use C.Viper. I think I know what you’re talking about.
Well I’m talking about what happens when you play SFIV at high level play. You get to a point where you’re going to have to fight someone with free ass invincible moves that are safe on block or have some ridiculous trade options. So it’s not even a matter of tiers…it’s just a matter of the flow of the match at that point. You’re using mundane tactics against characters that have failsafe options that you simply don’t. If those characters had any real risks to the defensive maneuvers they pull off it wouldn’t be so bad but if the worst you can do is lose 2 meters for getting an FADC shoryu blocked is getting in the opponent’s face or getting away from their shit for free then what incentive is there for those characters you listed to really do anything? They can’t make their defensive options completely safe on block and the ones they have have nowhere near as much invincibility or can lead to hella damaging ultras like Ryu and Sagat can.
Even during online/intermediate play you have to deal with people who want to abuse the free ass properties Capcom gave Ryu and Sagat on their shoryus and jump ins. You can’t quickly punish big mistakes the opponent makes when they use those characters like in the older games so they are a chore to fight during intermediate play and at high level play those same tactics can be used with more “smarts” to create really dumb situations.
Sure…Dic and Chun can make the matches fightable but it requires really dull play where the Ryu and Sagat are taking all of the risks (or lack of them once they have meter). Dic and Chun are forced to take risks but them doing so leads to more of a chance of getting screwed over than in other matches. People can just see that in match videos very easily when you’re just throwing around s.MK and s.HK and mashing on jabs cuz you don’t have much else and then you lose to invincible attacks that have no reprocussion on block that lead to ultra. These characters just don’t have the damage output or safeness to their offense that Ryu and Sagat do so they have to play rather dull and uncreative just to maybe win.
Even characters like Gief can break down the game a good bit for a lot of the cast since his lariat covers so much ground in this game and can trade with most jump ins. Basically all of the reasons no one ever tried to get too close to Gief in Super Turbo are accented like two fold in Super and that’s not good for offense either. Rog…same deal. Sitting on 3 frame rapid fire jabs that cover half the screen and lead to Ultra setups that your mom can set up. Sure his damage isn’t as high when he combos into Ultra or anything like that but it’s sad when the pinnacle of offense for a character is mashing on a move that a lot of other character’s in the game have little to no offensive answer to and is mostly your best option for setting up your ultra.
Well…that’s why Capcom is doing what they are doing now. I originally though about things like making shoryus have more recovery on block after FADC or something to that effect but that would take too long for Capcom to even think about let alone actually do. So they did the welfare method which is basically tone down damage harder after FADC. So you still have to deal with safe shoryus stripping all of your offensive options though at least now the “reprocussion” for taking a hit from shoryu FADC will be lessened even further. So at high level play there will be more incentive to use Ryu’s and Sagat’s real combos that actually require some thought and gee golly RISK to set up. Spending 2 bars to make their shoryu safe and land Ultra will not do the big damage it’s doing for them in the current game where taking away half their life at the start of the round means basically nothing at all. All you did was give them a tool that shuts down all of your offensive options and takes away half of YOUR LIFE right off breaks.
So with that toning down damage off FADC should help things a bit. When that random scrub online or at some tournament sits on 2 meters and an Ultra there’s a little more incentive to just say “fuck it” and go in because if he does hit you with it you’re not going to lose all of your life for trying to combat something that has no reprocussion even if you block it and forces you to space and jump like a bitch just to possibly get them to whiff. Which a good player obviously won’t do and then that same play seeps itself into high level play and you get people blocking instead of engaging.
And? 90% of people who play this game… play it online, lol. Also, daigo did two srk fadcs IN A ROW into ultra against justins fei long countless times during the finals of a tournament. An isolated event, but it did occur, and this shows the power of this sole tactic.
Lol, that could easily be spinned into saying you’re just being a a contrarian prick that wants to feel unique. Also, if you acknowledge people have preferences why can’t you accept that some people don’t like them?
That’s funny…you had me going there for a second. I actually almost believed you for a second and thought people played other characters in tourneys.
Flash Kick in SFIV is awful either way. EX is the only one that does anything useful at all, and even then fierce Thunder Knuckle and EX SBK have as many both invulnerable and active frames. Losing the ability to spam crappy moves (see: Soul Spark and Spiral Arrow while we’re at it)>losing the ability to spam awesome moves that combo into Ultra when it comes to closing up tier gaps.
I don’t think I can even comprehend Ryu’s EX uppercut and EX Messiah having SIXTEEN FRAMES of start-up invulnerability-the damn things can stuff a Shin Shoryuken. Ahaha, Seth’s EX DP has 22 frames, oh god what. Meanwhile Shoryu Reppa has only one extra frame of invulnerability and Ken’s jab DP isn’t even invulnerable up until it hits…
I’m going to throw it out there that I doubt “dem casuals” enjoy watching their attacks whiff through invincibility windows so long you could take a crap through them, usually they’re short enough that they aren’t all that obvious other than super flashes. Zangief’s ridiculous lariat boxes probably caused the permanent rage quits of thousands of players alone.
People act like championship edition didn’t exit, or WW for that matter. Before ST, almost every shoryu was invincible on startup, and was SAFE on block. you know how annoying it is to play against O.Ken in ST, with a completely invincible lp shoryu? Its not fun. Sure it can be punished, but it isn’t easy at all to punish. SF4 isn’t the first game to have crazy DP priority. It’s annoying. And before ST came around, Street Fighter was LARGELY about beating. I wouldn’t call HF a rush fest at all. You only started to really see any of this at ST. I find shoryu priority more of an oversight on Capcom’s end. They clearly trade, and weren’t meant to be that abusable, or even set up ultras. They just happen to now, so that’s what were dealing with. However, it looks like this is largely fixed in Super Street Fighter IV from what I’ve seen.
Again, people act like ridiculous shoryus has never existed before, and it has and has been worse. I guess we’ve had A2, A3, CVS2, and 3s around so long we forgot how to deal with high priority and safe shoryu abuse. For me, it’s annoying, but it’s nothing I can’t handle. Street fighter is largely about baiting, outsmarting, and training your opponent to play your way. It really isn’t about just fuciking them up with crazy rushdown. Sure you can do that, but I always thought it was harder to implement in SF games than in say games like GGXX
Dude, how am I unique if I like the new Stars Wars movies and I like SF4? I think it’s the people who try to sound smart by tearing popular games apart that feel the need to be unique. SF4 haters are like art snobs, they don’t know much of anything, but they try to be as elitist as possible.
I’d rather deal with O.Ken honestly than the bullshit that exists in SFIV. Sure he has a shoryu that’s mostly safe on block and is invincible all the way off though the reward he gets for hitting it is nowhere near as good as the reward Ryu and Sagat get for landing their crap and their crap is also accented by other things like a reversal system that’s extremely lenient (even O.Ken still has to deal with the 1 frame reversal system in reversal situations). O.Ken still has to place his shoryus more strategically than a Ryu or Sagat player does in IV and that’s bottom line. I’m just glad that shit’s getting toned down so we can have a game where people hopefully press buttons at each other a little bit more and all the biggest damage isn’t landed off of people’s invincible safe on block specials.
A lot of this sounds like people hating the players rather than the game, and a certain degree of elitism.
I’m not going to get into the “OMG SRK FADC Ultra is too good/broken!” argument. All games have had stupid good tactics/characters excel because they take advantage of the system better. All games. For several years, I put up with V-Akuma activating his CC pretty much anywhere/anytime he wanted to, and challenging me to make one wrong decision so that he could end the entire round. CvS1 Nakoruru was far scarier than IV Sagat - at least Sagat can’t potentially attack you in all 4 directions on your wakeup within a moment - and be more or less safe in doing so. I don’t sweat DP FADC Ultra, of all the broken nonsense we’ve put up in fighting games I feel that this is among the tamest.
What I see in this thread more than anyone else is people hating losing to players they feel aren’t as good as them - or not wanting to adjust their gameplay to deal with these types of players. Yes, mashers force you to adapt. And yes, reversals happen to be very good in this game. That works out for these new players. Maybe, in an older title, given the degree of difficulty in learning things like CC’s and Genei-Jin setups or whatever, new players couldn’t access them and therefore they had even less of a shot at winning. I contend that the better player still wins in the end - but in a game like 3S or CvS2, the better player wins 10-0, while in SFIV thanks to the way the system works, maybe its only 9-1 or 8-2. And people are hating on this. I’m the better player, damnit, I spent my time learning the advanced strats and tactics, I should beat that scrub mercilessly 10-0.
So really good tools have been made accessible to low-level players, giving them a better show at winning. This doesn’t make those tools any less viable in high-level play. And so now you lose occasionally to someone who you feel is not as good as you. So? People get mad salty about this, like its a personal insult or something, but in the end its a game. Say GG and resolve to improve yourself so it doesn’t happen so often.
SFIV was really popular with the non-hardcore. As much as you all hate that, we needed it. We needed a fighting game that sold well to keep fighting games strong. We needed the influx of new players. And not every person playing is as dedicated to fighting games as we are. They just want to fire off a few shoryukens and do some cool combos and call it a day. Maybe for us, that’s boring. Its not the type of game we want to play. With the older games, we could just destroy them with the intermediate/advanced tactics (also not fun, but whatever) and then they’d give up and go play something else. But in IV, they have a better shot at winning. They do win, so they keep playing. It’s been over a year, and there are STILL a lot of people playing. I think that’s what’s best for the community, rather than being all pissed off because they don’t play like we want them to.
I said before, mashing is far less common in Japan now. I saw it a while ago, both in arcades and online. Now, not so much. Occasionally online, but still the mashers are few and far between. I just went back through G2, so if there were any mashers I would have seen them there, but there weren’t a whole lot. The reason why is that it doesn’t work. People here don’t let it work. It doesn’t take long to figure out the other guy is mashing, and from there its easy enough to deal with it. Even the mashers could figure out - “Hey, this doesn’t work anymore. Maybe I should do something different…” What is Japan doing differently that America isn’t here? I’m not in America now so I have no idea what’s going on. From what I can see on the forums, people refuse to adjust their playstyle, lose, and then complain and long for the old days when the intermediate tactics used to completely beat down the beginners.
I think the game is fun at high levels. I’m very fortunate in that even online, the vast majority of the matches I get to participate in are at least intermediate if not high level. Fighting beginners isn’t fun. But that isn’t something new or exclusive to SFIV, it hasn’t been fun in any other game, at least not for me. In previous games, given the gap between beginner and intermediate, the beginners gave up which left primarily just intermediate players and up, but it left our community small and exclusive. In SFIV, the beginners are still here, and they aren’t improving. Its good that the game has a big audience, but you don’t like the way they fight. Okay, fine. So there are two options - hate the game and complain about it, or find a way to make those beginners become better. I just think the latter is far more productive.
I, for one, kind of enjoyed the new Star Wars movies as well, but they were more about flash and style then story and substance.
I really was more in the way comparing that the new SWs movies and SF IV both relied on being flashy and in your face, but at the core just one big mess (in SWs case the story and in SF IV’s case the gameplay).
Azrael makes some very strong points in a lot of ways, but you honestly give SF IV a little too much credit. I like you saying that Capcom needed SF to go this for the noobs and just keep enough hardcore edge for the pros (or at least some of them), so that way they can get in the spotlight again and make tons of money, which could bring in much better games in the future.and Ono has mentioned for a future SF game he wants it to be more hardcore like 3S,and possibly continuing AFTER SF III (finally) and having Sean as one of the main focuses.
Ono also said that you can’t get any more perfect than 3S, so this the only other option for a SF game that would work. SF IV is not at all for me, even as much as I am obsessed with SF, everything about it is just too damn corny and kiddy, and the gameplay gets me really bored after about 10 minutes. Just my opinion.
Best post in thread. I want to be the latter for sure, at least in the SF games i do play, I always try to be really friendly and help them become better. But this hits it on the head here, guys, if it helps us get a much more in-depth SF game later, then I am all for it.
I’m a tad confused as to why SFIV is considered to be scrubbier than the other SF games, when the level of execution required to compete at higher levels is considerably greater in SFIV than say 3S. Perhaps it’s just me, but I have no difficulty pulling off complex combos during a match in 3S. When it comes to SFIV, I still have difficulty pulling off basic combos consistently.
So do you believe all you need is awesome combos to win?? lol No, not at all, that is just one piece of the puzzle. Llearn how to zone and get your execution down first. My combos came MUCH later on for me, the big ones anyways.
I used to play people in ST, 3S and ALPHA 3 all the time and beat them, and they knew far flashier combos at the time. and are you seriously saying the level of execution is HARDER in SF IV than in SF III??? dude, seriously quit right now with that nonsense and go play or better yet, watch, some high level players in 3S please and get your mind right.
And in 3S you have far, far more options to defeat or defend your opponent with, so zoning, footsies,reaction time, and alot of experience is what you will need to be even halfway decent in 3S.
AND IT IS OK TO LIKE WHATEVER STREET FIGHTER GAME YOU WANT. Play whatever you like and you think the others suck, but don’t think even for a moment that even one of the SF games has anything as far as technicality and the hardest to master than 3S, because you would be completely wrong. one game being more fun and better for you is an opinion, but that stops right here.
Uh, where the hell did you get the idea that I believe combos are all that’s necessary to win? I’m more than aware that knowing how to control space is the most important aspect of fighting games in general.
Execution is wayyyyyyyyyyyy harder in SFIV than 3S, at least for me. As I said, I have relatively few difficulties performing complex combos (Genei Jin juggles, etc.) in matches in 3S. Yet, I can hardly pull off basic combos in SFIV. I dunno why. All I know is that I find it much easier to do complex stuff in 3S than basic stuff in SFIV.
And, yes, basics are infinitely more important than combos. I’m not an idiot; I realize that.
Execution, at least my definition of it, is about how difficult a combo is to execute. Zoning, footsies, etc. are a whole 'nother ball game, and I one you brought up, not I.
Is there any particular reason as to why you’re being an extremely hostile 3S fanboy at the moment?
Uh, I don’t remember if it was a poll or an actual chart, but isn’t the 2nd top Japanese SF IV player is a Vega player? We have various players playing various characters other than Ryu and Sagat, though I agree to some degree when I say that I’ve seen quite a few Ryus and Sagats on SF IV arcade tourneys
But AFAIK, alot of the pro Sagats don’t win many tourneys or even get to the top 8. Ryu is a different story [And tbh, I personally see Ryu as the S tier and not Sagat, will elaborate if there’s a demand]
Tell me about it, I’m learning Guile, and a few days ago I wanted to check his FK/Super/Ultra invu frames and how it relfects vs a FB spam. Recorded Ryu spamming Hadoukens, and found out that unless I’m hitting before the Hadouken is actually released, I’m fucked.
This thread is making me angry.
This is false. This happens in every Fighting Game ever. You have to adjust your strategy to fight scrubs. That’s it. In EVERY GAME.
I played a guy named “Take-off Kick Jeffry” in VF2 and he killed me with stupid low level tactics at my college (namely, holding straight up and hitting kick in dumb places). Another person used Kage and just 10-foot-toss + Ring out all day or 50/50 guessing if he did lunging high attack or low attack. I couldn’t beat it. But when I played better players, I did much better. Is VF2 is a scrubby game? Um, no.
I’ve fought Chun Li Players in Hyper Fighting before that just did Strong into Throw allllll day. Hold forward on the stick, hit Strong, and it’ll option select itself into poke or Throw. I had to concentrate SO MUCH just to beat him even though I was much better than him. Is Hyper Fighting scrubby?
A player at SHGL used to roll + Uppercut with Iori and Terry ALLLLLL day. And man, did I have to dumb my game down against him. Just look for Rolls and Throw. That was my whole gameplan. Is CvS2 scrubby?
I played Makoto against a Chun who did Back + Fierce allllllll day. I couldn’t beat it with anything. Is 3S scrubby?
You just have to do it against scrubby tactics. It’s a fact of almost every Fighting Game that you have to adjust to your opponent. And if that means learning to be patient against Scrubby players, so be it. The nice thing is if they mash out DPs so obviously, it’s actually fun to do your favorite Combo against them that does this stupid amount of damage. At least, that’s how I see it.
I play online and can kill scrubby players in SFIV just fine. Fearing Shoryus has no longer become a problem for me. In fact, it becomes fun. I can bait Shoryus in a myriad of ways. It USED to be a problem for me, but I adjusted, and it’s fine now. Yeah, I love Meaties as much as the next guy, so what? I also enjoy punishing whiffed DPs!! It’s fun!
And there are other tactics you can use to facilitate stuff, like the late Meaty attack. If you time a button press RIGHT AFTER the opponent gets up, if they get up and attack, you block, if not, you go into your offense. This strategy has existed since CvS2, when I saw Valle use it to Option Select against wake-up Supers.
You must explain this, because preferring something to be non-accessible may be one of the worst things I’ve read on this forum ever, mostly because I know you ARE serious when you say that, and it just sounds so wrong. I’m not trying to insult you, but that statement can be soooo easily misconstrued, so I would really like to know what you really meant by that.
Again, this happens in any game. There will always be some stupid tactic that’s stupidly easy to implement that will net you wins vs. those inexperienced. In my scrubbier Hyper Fighting days, I lost to Kens who mashed Jab DPs all day. The game was too fast and I couldn’t punish it. It was disheartening then, and it’s disheartening now. SFIV is not an exception. Just learn how to fight them.
Do you really believe that was put in the game on purpose? If he’s airborne, then you can’t Super Cancel it. There were a LOT of considerations put into the game that resulted in this accident. You can Throw Honda out of a Level 2 Super Headbutt in CvS2 just so he can Super Cancel it. They have to do things to the game to make certain things WORK. It’s all a VERY delicate balancing act. Once you start entering the realm of “Detect if a trade happen, if so, make opponent invincible to moves that just naturally Juggle,” your game becomes a hodge podge of band-aid code and character-specific exceptions that mess up the game. Just think “MAXIMUM DAMAGE” from the MK3 games and you’ll know what I mean. That system didn’t work at all because it’s MUCH harder to program these sorts of things than you think.
The things you guys complain about, you have NO CLUE why they happen. As a person who studies game mechanics just 'cause I like to do it (and used to write FAQs), everything about trade into Ultra was an accident, one that is NOT EASILY AVOIDED. I personally believe I’m really good at coming up with technical, logical solutions to problems like these, and I have yet to think of a good way to avoid trade into Ultras outside of giving all DP moves more invincibility so that they are more powerful. But is that a good thing, making DPs so buff?
I can’t say much about this, but you just don’t know the history of the whole thing. But what I can say is that, if you want, you can leave it so all Shorts combo into Specials for free without links, and the game would turn into CvS1. Do you remember that game well? People made fun of it because it became a Low Short fest. EVERY character was Low Short into Special. It was pretty dumb, and people hated it then and complained about it like people are complaining about SFIV today. I’m glad Capcom didn’t allow this in SFIV. People complain about mashing DPs yet they want people to mash Shorts and get free Combos? At this point, people are complaining just to complain.
So why don’t we just make a game with 25 Ryus? That way, they’ll all have anti-airs and all play the same. Why is Abel not having an Anti-air but having a Roll a bad thing? I think it’s cool variety. I never liked how in ST that they gave Dee Jay a real Razor Kick, Vega a real Razor Kick, and so on and so forth. I preferred the variety.
And Akuma is one of the best characters in the game. How can we even complain about him dying quickly or him having a crappy Ultra or Super? If he had a better Ultra, Akuma would be broken as hell. It’s GOOD that he can’t land it easily. And as a hardcore Cammy player, I will say that Cammy doesn’t suck AT ALL in SFIV. It’s a common misconception.
You really want Skullomania and Darun and Allen in SFIV? Really? Hahaha. I mean, original characters doesn’t mean they’re good characters. 
Come on. I can show you two videos out of 10000 of people getting rushed down in SFIV as well. The Rush Down from Urien in those videos are a result of great mind games. I can easily link a Chun vs. Chun match from YouTube as well from Third Strike. And that will put everyone to sleep. I can also link to you two videos of Justin Wong murdering people with Rufus, even with mashable DPs. It means nothing.
I know you’re just trying to have some fun here, but I hate it when people do things like this. I dunno why. Just irks me.
Yeah? Well, Capcom also rolled dice to determine the quality of Supers in Third Strike! And poor Twelve got three low Rolls. They were 4, 3, and 6… and they were rolling three dice!!! That’s actually why his Supers all suck.
Seriously, I can make shit up too. You seriously trying to pass off this story as fact? What the heck do you know happened behind the scenes?
Um… How old are you? Seriously. I wanna know. I LIVED through Hyper Fighting. I’m an oooooold-ass mofo I played that game in the arcades hardcore. There was VERY LITTLE that was technical about that game. I will kill you by doing ONLY Jumping Forward into Throw with Ken. That’ll be my only tactic. I will legitimately beat you that way. And understand, I LOVE Hyper Fighting. It’s right up there as my favorite Fighting Game of all time, but even I laugh at the thought that Hyper Fighting being called “technical.” It’s one of the most straight forward game Fighting Games ever. It’s great BECAUSE of its simplicity and lack of anything really technical.
And technical games sell well? Tell that to Guilty Gear. Tell that to Virtua Fighter. Tell that to BlazBlue.
You mean Parries?
I disagree. O.Kens only have to do that against experts. But then, against experts, safe FADCs must also be intelligently used. I’ve used my DP FADC DP FADC tactic before as well. But when my opponent blocks every hit (all two of them), I just burned my whole meter, and now I’m doomed. It was my last ditch effort to make a comeback, but it was stopped by Blocking. I mean, there’s other punishment for having those safe DPs from FADCs. I don’t like FADC’able uppercuts much either, but they aren’t the worst thing to happen to SF by a long shot.
I’m not trying to be hostile, man. Sorry I came off that way.
option three: quit:)
I fucking love this thread. It’s like putting underwear on straight out of the dryer.
yeah, i think a some on SRK had this idea they would go straight to SG with their peers far, far away from the “scrubs”. obviously, they didn’t anticipate that SF4 online can be like the bizzaro world at times.
don’t many japanese players still have a point of offline reference? american players most likely don’t have or never had that point of reference. i mean, if a person picks up SF4 because he remembers playing SF2 as a 8 y.o. not in the arcades, but on his snes. how would he know that mashing out two F.dp isn’t a good idea (ie: offline against good comp), especially if he sees that it can work due to the vagaries of online play.
or at least put a moratorium on the SF4 hate until SSF4 drops and after it’s picked apart for a couple of months. if anyone still hates it. feel free to whip out the machetes on both games.