I have the same problem. I time things with sight, but I just can’t do that as well for some reason.
well, the people in here do have a point… and even though i’ve grown to love sf4… there are a lot of things that i really dislike about sf4 and well, newschool streetfighter in general… that is how people have come to play newschool (and oldschool) streetfighter in general:
- moves to avoid being trapped in the corner. i REALLY hate these types of moves… i always liked being trapped in the corner cause i knew that i did a bunch of wrong things to get there, which in turn made it alot easier to figure out what was wrong/right in my game, not to mention that i just generally liked the prospect of fighting my way out.
conversely i also liked to trap fools in the corner… of course.
but now with all of the million and one ways to get out of the corner like akumas teleports and shoto in general air tatsu… well its just alot smarter to walk backwards when the corner means so little… which makes the games more turtle oriented of course.
this isnt to say that i dislike zoning… on the contrary, i love it. but when someone is so mindfucked that they hold backwards for half the stage and then get to air tatsu/whatever get out of the corner for free card… well that just pisses me off… its boring… not to mention that i end up losing to that bs alot as well.
but i dont fault my opponents for it, i use this stupid strategy as well… cause i’m forced to… but that dont mean that i like it.
- early jumpins
another thing that REALLY bothers me. people that jumpin with early/high attacks in order to outprioritize AA’s… well back in the day it wasnt a particularly good strategy to do this cause you’d always get thrown when you landed… ALWAYS.
then people figured out that if they had a motion dp based character, that they in fact COULD do early high jumpins cause they could land and dp the throw attempt… and it was all downhill from there, now scrubs get to jumpin like idiots and they have a free mixup upon landing… hey its better than having to actually think your way into a good position right? lol.
fast forward to even newer games and you no longer get to throw random jumping scrub when they do a high jumpin… making an easy mode offense the actual norm, whereas i had been able to tell a good player by the fact that they knew WHEN, to jumpin not just HOW.
and it carries over to 4… in america i see alot of players getting free jumpins… even at high levels, and the reason is because early jumpins are well… in a few words… a little too good. sure they promote offense… but imho its offense in the wrong way.
now those are things that i dislike about streetfighter on the whole… some things that i dislike about sf4 in general:
shit blockstrings
focus attack> backdash makes this game LESS pokey and even more turtly
short range on throws
3 frame throws
crouch tech option select into low short
safe srk type of moves like ex messiah having a mixup when blocked (i already guessed right… and now i have to guess right again??? lol stupid imho)
srk>fadc
weak ass special moves so that theres a reason to put in ex versions of those same moves.
overpowered ex moves since they are “balanced” by the need to be ex’d
and i could probably think of some other shit that i dislike if i spent another minute or 2 thinking about it… but the thing is… i dont really… i just play the game cause i dont see the things that i dislike about the game changing… ever… at least not in 4.
no game is perfect. NONE.
but this game is damn good, and for now, thats enough for me.
-dime
I thought I was the only one who did this. This is awesome especially when it is cold outside.
Because It’s been 10 years since it got out? wtf…
Recent posts from Azrael, jchensor and Dime_x are really good. If you haven’t read them yet, you’re missing out.
PS. Roll, throw/uppercut/LVL2 Tiger Raid still work like a charm, even at high levels hahahaha
James Chen post takes me back. Listen to this man, he makes a lot of valid points, and has the experience to back up what he’s saying. A lot of people weren’t around in the pre-internet days to deal with all levels of scrubs. James Chen talking about CVS2 roll uppercut/roll throwing takes me back to the old arcades days when every fucking C-Groove scrub did this.
I think the problem is we get exposed to high level play way to quick. We can see match vids and advance tactics in a click of a mouse. We can go home and practice these techniques and combos, and try to bring them into a real match. But really we are running before we crawl. Just because we can do the same combos Daigo can do, we somehow get mislead to think we are on his level. We see how he approaches matchups with another player who understand respect situations. We don’t understand why his opponent is not mashing endlessly or mashing jab like his life depends on it. Both players in that vid know the game well enough to totally not do scrubby tactics anymore.
It sucks that we spend so much time learning combos, and browsing SRK for matchup tips just to lose to mashing DP scrub on XBL or PSN. It hurts like hell because we know we could beat him. But we don’t understand things like patience, pacing, and strategy to put that scrub in his place. I mean I was on PSN the other day, trying to try out my new stick. I lost over 300 BP in one night mainly to shoto scrubs randoming me out with dumb shit that I know I could counter if I had my trusty PS3 pad. Oh I was heated, I was spewing up tons of 4 letter words. But in the end is it really a big deal? I know if it were lagless and my execution was on point on stick, I would peace these scrubs out now problem. And I wasn’t so upset I lost 300 BP, because there is always time to get them back.
Okay perhaps I’m rambling, so maybe I should bring home my point. My point is sometimes when you play scrubs (when I play scrubs) I’m thinking for 2 people. I’m thinking for myself and I’m thinking for my opponent. My opponent doesn’t have the knowledge and experience not to keep doing risky ass tatus the entire match. He doesn’t know that you just don’t jump at Guile all match. He doesn’t know that if I anti-air him, it’s not a good idea to just jump in again. So I have to turn off my brain in those matches, because I obviously can’t train this opponent to stop doing risk and random shit in matches. So I just turtle it up, punish the scrub, peace him out, and be done with him and hopefully my next opponent gives me more of a challenge. This has been really hard for me to learn in games. I still struggle with scrubs far below my level because I forget to stop thinking in a match. But sometimes you just have to rely on the basics on scrubs. I just need to beat him and not style on him with flashy offense. Back in the CVS2 days, I had to just counter scrubs who couldn’t seem to stop rolling throwing. I have to do it now. Yeah it’s boring as hell, but playing newbs is never fun.
Yah, you guys are making a lot of good points. Hopefully with the new lobby system in SSFIV I won’t have to rely on ranked matches with dp mashers. I might actually be able to learn the game and enjoy my matches. That’s the one thing I liked about blazblue even though I didn’t play that much also…I had access to lobbies, and I could see if the player was a masher or was making a conscious effort to learn the game. Easier to filter through people. That’s why GGPO is so good.
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on. Tons of posts piled up implying the reason the SF4 detractors have a problem with SF4 is due to frustration in losing to this or that strategy or dp mashers or what-have-you. I’d just like to make it clear that my problem with SF4 (and most reasonable detractors’, indeed) has nothing to do with that kind of thing. Dealing with cheesers is an element of every fighting game, tiers come up in every fighting game - Who is actually expecting to be taken seriously if their only complaint is “x strategy is easy mode”? Conversely, acting like the chief reason people dislike SF4 because they refuse to STEP UP THEIR GAME YO is absurd. I think SF4 is a terrible game and I’d never bring FADC into any argument I were to make against it. I might on occasion make fun of the game’s low execution requirements but that alone would not suffice to put me off a game.
I’m beginning to wonder if all those who love SF IV so damn much have ever even gone to the SF III threads and watched the videos that are posted up. Sure, anyone can say they can play 3S, but very few can at a pro level (with new stuff to learn everyday). http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=129585
Play SF IV, have fun, but I’m still having fun with SF III. 
or play both games or ones of your choosing because I am sure SSFIV will be better and I will play it occasionally for fun.
I’m just glad there’s still a fucking community for fighters at this point.
^This.
I could have missed this place completely, simply because I didn’t know SRK existed years ago. Nice to see it’s still around.
Just for the record I’m very aware of the crazy DPs that were in some versions of SFII. There’s a reason New Ken (and HD Ken) don’t have that though-as I recall besides the juggle of doom it was another big problem in the HDR beta.
What screws with me is that:
ST Supers: tactically useful, very good invulnerability, very good start-up, very good hitboxes, very good damage, 1 per meter
Alpha lvl.1 Supers: tactically flexible, mediocre invulnerability, good start-up, good hitboxes, okay damage, 3 per meter
Alpha lvl.3 Supers: punisher/combo ender, very good invulnerability, good start-up, very good hitboxes, very good damage, 1 per meter
SFIV EX-version Reversal Moves: tactically flexible, very good invulnerability, good start-up, good hitboxes, okay damage, 4 per meter
SFIV Super Moves: punisher/combo ender, mediocre invulnerability, good start-up, good hitboxes, good damage, 1 per meter
SFIV Ultra moves: punisher/combo ender, good invulnerability, mediocre start-up, good hitboxes, very good damage, separate meter
Now, do some of the priorities on those last ones not seem to be in the wrong place? Why do SFIV supers act like a level 1 while some people have an EX Shoryuken that has like level 3 Metsu Shoryuken-esque invulnerability for 1/4 the super bar? Consistency I say! You can’t have a Hyper Fighting Shoryu in there for one character while someone else would kill for a crappy A3 version of a similar move. Well, I don’t think you should anyways.
Yes. We all would be entirely accepting of blatantly broken crap – just like you – if only people didn’t use it.
Nope. The reason we hate the mechanics is because it lets this stupid garbage happen. Don’t 'tard out on me with this head-in-the-sand shit.
Ah, the videogame industry! While conventional thought seeks to learn from history, we can instead use it as an excuse not to! WHEEEEEEEEEE! :party:
P.S. I double don’t care about shit in games made 10+ years ago. I care about the one i’m playing now that was made 2 years ago and is about to get a DLC^H^H^H^Hsequel.
Compared to [thing that’s not good], [thing that’s also not good] is [weakass relativism].
OH MY GOD!!! IN A 1 ON 1 COMPETITIVE FIGHTING GAME?!? WHAT BIZARRE PERVERSION WILL WE EXPERIENCE NEXT OH FUCK I THINK I SEE CTHULHU
The better player wins in the end, yes. Let’s ignore the entire concept of tiers and balance.
The point is that while an advanced player can trounce a mashing newb, there is a no-mans land just beyond the mashing level where knowing a little more than a mashing ****** Ryutard not only doesn’t help you, but is effectively detrimental. Advanced players already know the setups needed to compensate, as all playing at that level is pure adaptation. But when you’re trying to claw your way up to the point where you can learn the setups necessary to move from the mashing game to the adaptation game, the very systems that allow the mashing in the first place mean that you simply aren’t going to get the situations in which to practice them. Trying them anyway will get you punished because – durrrr – there are few realistic responses to it.
And for that matter, this is why there’s no incentive for tard mashers to become more than tard mashers. At this level, becoming “better” is a completely arbitrary distinction. You learn more, but lose more to people who know less and try less. It is a purgatory of circular logic: The gap is such that you don’t know enough to really make them pay for leaning on a move that’s too good and too easy to do, and because you can’t do that you can’t force them into a game where you can actually practice the things needed to force them into that game. Did you ever wonder, like most of us have, how shit players in ranked or champ end up with so many points despite being such easy wins? This is exactly fucking why.
In this process, if you don’t have access to competition that can pass the Turing test, the repetition needed to boot the mashers out of their crap leads to muscle memory, which leads to bad habits, which gets you owned by the rare good player since you’re automatically doing stupid stuff to compensate for stupid stuff… that they’re not doing. Ergo, mashers make one a worse player for having adapted to them overmuch, and again, this is all a problem that would go away if stupid shit like easy reversals and godlike moves with mashable execution didn’t exist.
Coincidentally, this is really why everyone scoffs at online. Some of you try to act cool like “pfff, we’ll there’s your problem, it’s online not the mechanics!”. No, it’s the mechanics that allow this. While it wouldn’t be perfect and we’d still drop stuff now and again due to lag, we’d all be able to more or less get by with it. Lag just proves how easymode this shit is, where the scrub crap becomes easier when everything else becomes harder. If they (encompasing everything from sagat’s health, to easy and powerful moves, to absolute guard and reversal windows), weren’t broken, they wouldn’t be any better to fall back on now would they?
Hence the first fucking point i made, which is that these things designed to help newbies ultimately, and quickly, end up biting them in the ass only to level out at being annoyances for the rest of us with chars who clearly weren’t in mind when those features were implemented. And that’s where another element of the dislike comes in: the things ostensibly added to make the game more inviting don’t actually apply to most of the characters. You don’t get an easy reversal with Chun, now do you? I pretty much don’t get one at all with Gouken, and since i don’t have a move with SRK properties, the shortcut doesn’t benefit me at all. In fact, since my SRK motion is tied to a move that actually does the opposite of an SRK and leaves me extremely vulnerable on top overlaps with another command, it makes a shitty char that much more pointless to use. It has the exact opposite effect, and means that if i want to avoid tripping this newb bullshit and fucking myself over, i have to be more disciplined in my input execution than i would if it didn’t exist at all.
That clear enough, sweetums, or shall i request bigger fonts? Absolutely NO ONE is complaining about a loss here and there, and i don’t even know where you’re getting that other than a militant desire to miss the point. Either that, or it honestly is hard for you to understand just how different things are when you don’t have Japan’s arcade scene.
learn to read jackoff
never said technical games sell well or dont sell well. Just replied to a statement about why they ‘dumbed down’ street fighter. Putting words in my mouth than calling me an idiot for them is inherently lame.
And fyi, HF didnt sell well because it was a technical fighter. It sold well BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST FIGHTING GAME. SFII pretty much launched the series, and when it came out it sold well because there was no other game like it.
But why should they be accessible to lower level players?
Good tools /or tactics should be given to those who learn to execute them.
Sure it may not be fair, but hey, one person took the time to learn and utilize a good tactic, while the other did not.
Reap what you sow.
Quality over Quantity.
Personally speaking, if SF continues to go down the road of SF4, with lenient move inputs, shortcuts, large reversal windows, and lots of other scrub friendly shit, just to appeal to new players in order for Capcom to make more money, then I’d rather see Capcom stop making future SF games altogether. cue flaming
Again, quality of players > quantity of players.
This can be done in pretty much any game, no matter how technical or hard it is, whether it’s ST, 3S, A2/3, or CvS2.
But then why does SF4 have to be more lenient with command inputs?
It’s not like doing SRKs and a few 2-3-hit combos like s.hp xx hadouken or j.hp xx s.hp xx hadouken is that much harder to do in all of the old games compared to SF4.
That’s what I don’t like about new players. They think the old games are too hard to learn or that it’s nearly impossible to beat a veteran player so they just give up and quit.
So now we have to cater to these new players and dumb down the games that we’ve been playing for the last 15+ years. Just so that these new players will keep playing, and thus, making more money for Capcom.
The same thing happened with HDR. It was meant to adhere to new players so they made move inputs easier to execute as well as the motions.
Why must we dumb down fighting games in order to make the casual player play them? Why can’t they lean to play the game the way it was meant to be played - with no scrubby shit added.
If they don’t want to put in the time and dedication in order to beat the veterans, then they don’t deserve to win against the veterans.
If SF4 haters aren’t complaining about all the scrubby shit in SF4, it would be the new players that would be complaining about all the hard/technical stuff in the old games.
The old games were doing just fine before all the scrubby stuff in SF4 came along.
EDIT:
Not those ones in particular.
It’s been forever since I played EX2 & EX3 so I forgot who was added in those games, since the only EX game I played seriously was EX+@.
I’ll let you know if there are any that I find of interest, should I ever decide to play them. =)
No worries, man.
I just thought of the Urien vids when Brahn said this:
The first thing that popped into my head when he said “dumb offense” was Messatsu Yarou’s crazy freestyle Urien.
That fucker hardly slows down. He rushes the fuck down regardless. So I just wanted to show that there are games (or rather, people) where slowing down is not necessary in order to get in for offensive pressure.
I could be taking what Brahn said the wrong way though. Correct me if I am.
To be honest…execution barriers shouldn’t be set so high. Barriers to entry are needless obstacles, which really serve no value besides restricting access. A combos difficulty should be directly proportional to how much damage it does, imo. Or something sane, which allows for overall balance. Execution still needs to be a factor when playing, but it shouldn’t be a huge barrier to new people.
You know I do, Darun is like my 10th main in EX3 lol.
Allen gets lots of love and people miss him from EX1. Skullo is very unique, thats all I can say.
Now how well those EX characters can transition over to the SF4 engine I don’t know.
I hardly call Capcom’s release pattern for SF games “Pumping”, unless you mean in a gay sex way.
An overload of newb players can cause some immediate damage to the game, this is very true. However it is very natural to get hung up on short term effect versus long term results. Same kind of narrow thinking is why the economy tanked.
In reality, more players are always good. If it takes a few years of dumbed down games to draw in a decent crowd to get Capcom on board with a release schedule of fighters like they did in the heyday or better, then it is worth it. Truth be told, in the beginning the arcades were full of scrubs far worse than you see now. At least now there are videos of good players for them to see and more access to strategy and the like to help scrubby players improve. What Capcom in reality are creating is a long term fanbase full of various levels of players, and the tournament scene will grow with it as more and more players get that epiphany that makes the game click for them.
I played SF2 WW in the arcade when it came out. It was a scene of giving people free second rounds and throws being cheap and banned. Think of the stupidest post match emails you have received after beating scrubs; the arcades and corner stores were basically guidelined by their ideas of how the game should be played. I watched immersed in it all as these stupid rules dropped and the arcades become dominated by people seeking depth out of their games.
This is pretty much what is happening right now. In a few years you will see what I mean.
Actually I think the first SFEX did have some cool character designs, it is just that the first game is so horribly executed and the sequels introduce so much shit…especially the new cast…wtf
I actually would love to see all of the characters in the first EX back, aside from Garuda…he can die in a fire. I love me some Darun and Blair, and an updated Kairi would be pretty cool. As a shoto variant he is pretty fun. While they ruined him mechanically in the later games, I love how his hands glow and their position change as he builds meter. This would be a cool effect for SF4. Make his super the fireball, and one Ultra is his Demon Storm variant with the fists through the body and the other is a variant of his air combo super.
Anyways. replying to the rest of your post…just didn’t quote it all for length. Very much agreed. My only complaint about having to adjust your game to scrubby players is that if you play them too long you can mess up your overall game if you aren’t careful. When I left Toronto my selection of opponents seriously dropped and the only ones I could find were serious scrubs. I have one friend who only picks Rolento in A3 and his spammy playstyle took a while to be able to beat…and he didn’t ever do any special moves. Playing against this crap long enough can poison you when you have to face better opponents. When I finally moved again and found some people who took the game seriously I suddenly was the scrub and had to relearn.
However there is a plus to finding some random scrub with scrubby playstyles that you have to change your approach to beat;
First thing is it makes you realize that if these tactics are giving you a hard time, then likely when pulled out of nowhere they could take other players by surprise and they may have trouble dealing with it. Sometimes the right choice in a match that is giving your trouble is to do something retarded. The power of the unexpected.
Secondly is it leaves you prepared when someone gets random on you in a more serious match.
Who actually believes that “scrubs” have more input into the next game?
I played Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne on release and battle.net forums were filled with so much criticism from players of all skill levels. Who were you going to listen to?
Even after you playtest something, you might not discover something for months or even years. You think anyone knew that Viper would be played the way she is now? You think Capcom knew what Genei Jin combos would look like before they released 3S? Crouch Cancels in A3? I bet they didn’t even envision the problems people would have with shortcuts being too lenient. Sometimes when a minor change is made it might have big repercussions. Sometimes not. So who knows how things end up anyway?
The notion of the OP was that some developer might read what a low skilled player wrote and then automatically implement it in the game. Maybe that’s how they do it in Capcom. Or maybe they have things examined by high level monkeys in cages. No one knows and it’s useless complaining about it.