New MvC2 versions tourney viable?

I wanted to ask this in the bug or newb threads as this didn’t seem to need its own thread…but it didn’t seem to fit a bug or a newbie question, so I guess it does.

I read from Magnetro in the bugs/glitches thread that MvC2 for the X360 will never be completely fixed because of patch size limits by MS and certain other programming issues. I just wanted to know if MvC2 will have more potential to be tourney-viable on the PS3 in time?

I’ve been unable to get my Xbox copy of Marvel as of yet, so I was saddened yet relieved to hear that the 360 version is too bugged/gimped to ever be viable, because although it sucks to hear that it won’t be, at least now I can get it on the PS3 when I get a PS3. But if the PS3 is going to be non-tournament compliant like the 360 is definitely going to be, then I may as well drop 20 bucks for the 360 version now rather than when I get a PS3, you know?

Sorry if this didn’t deserve it’s own thread, I skimmed over a few other threads and didn’t really see an answer

no xbox 360 is not tourney viable…but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t spend money on it because the online experience for it is very good still. lots of good competition online.

why not buy for both? that’s what I did.

maybe ps3 will someday be tourney viable

Its good for online.

But imo DC should be the only way to play MVC2 tournament wise.

I just ask coz I realize DCs aren’t gonna last forever. I hate online play in most cases so that’s not much of a factor. I just want to play/practice on the most accurate version so if I ever play seriously I am on the right system. I do have the DC version still, so its no biggie, but it would be nice to have it on the newer consoles

Given that the EVO crew sold or smashed their DC stockpile, I’m gonna go out on a limb and assume that if marvel returns it’ll be on one of the new systems. And since other tourney organizers tend to like to match up with what they’re doing…

Oh yea, I remember Mr. Wiz saying that they were doing a DC smashfest back when the game was about to come out on the new systems…Well, I think I’m gonna just stick to the DC version for now until I get a PS3. I do want more fighters for my 360 though so I might pick up Garou or KOF98UM instead in the interim. Maybe if I get a bit more disposable income I’ll get the 360 version of MvsC2, but money is real tight for my poor ass right now =P

I dunno if any o’ this makes sense. The dc version has been broken as hell since day 1… everyone just learned to adapt and even incorporate brokenness into their gameplan/strats… I can’t speak all the much for the 360 version but ps3 is imho not much more broken than the dc version was. It’s issues aren’t exactly the same… but the issues it has are not really better/worse than the dc version.

Basically I’ve never before seen so much of a campaign for the devil you know rather than the devil you don’t. Mahvel will be played on next gen from now on… we know this… and there’s no fighting it. Either pray like a mofo for more patches to keep moving it closer to the dc version… or accept that it’s not the dc version and could be just as good all the same once you are as familiar with it as you happened to be with dc.

If I’m missing something plz let me know but it seems like most issues with the new versions mosly appear online or at the damn menu screen… i’ve never had anything overly jenky happen when playing local matches.

yea, you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

DC marvel is 99% accurate to arcade. I think there are some minor combos that don’t work properly and the speed is faster on DC. By far, the closest thing to arcade available.

Since DC marvel won’t be @ EVO anymore, its safe to assume that this game will be on the ps3. x360 can’t handle marvel. Its pretty bad as a tournament standard and its almost as bad as the ps2 version. Prep for ps3 mvc2 tournaments.

I’m well aware that dc is the closest to arcade…

In reality it seems you do not know what I’m talking about. I made no comparison to arcade at all. There’s no real reason to since we know that having enough coin-ops for these tourneys is NOT an option. It never was even when there happened to be 10 times more machines in service.

My point is that even the original arcade was “broken” in terms of how one might consider a fighting game in terms of balance and engine… …I don’t see ANY perfect version at all. There never was. We just loved it anyways.

If you have a vision of perfection based on the dc version it is only b/c you are used to its broken nature more so than you are used to its broken nature on ps3. Basically making the argument that the best way is the way it used to be based on the fact that it used to be that way.

In terms of final result it will come down it what it always does with fighting games… adapt… that’s it. Thankfully there is very little adaptation needed.

I would expect someone who knows the engine as well as you and has studied frame data for so many toons and the tiny nuances of the engine for so long to be bugged by the minor differences. Like a lot of people. Not saying it doesn’t bug me at all… but I’m very glad that mahvel has a future and I feel like it would be a step back to not move fwd using the new versions for tourneys (especially given that the future of mahvel are all learning the game now on ps3 or 360).

Thus is my point. We serve the game we love poorly by not supporting its future but instead looking to its past. You have to ask yourself what’s best for mahvel. Do I serve the game best by pleasing the very small following of old mahvel and sticking with dc… or pleasing the 20 million potential entries who just bought the game 4 months ago for ps3 or 360? Wouldn’t they be as miffed at using the dc version as you are at using ps3? Do they not pay the same entry fee you do? It’s all about perspective… like everything else…

You won’t convice me that someone who just started playing on nextgen recently is gonna jump for joy when they show up at a national and see a 10 year old version they have never played before being used. Given that the majority of the games current fan base now fall into this category… and that every new fan to the game at this point… will also fall into this category… yea…

Personally I prefer arcade in terms of game versions… but I prefer the success of the game overall and it supersedes my own desires.

very little adaption needed? cyke infinite is gone. If its still there its totally different. Magneto has to cancel his rom very early now because of d.lk recovery time and this goes for EVERY d+normal in the game. Every stage creates different amount of frame dropping which means combo timing will change per stage. Thats just fucking terrible. The more just frame heavy your setup is, the less likely you are to land on a stage with huge amounts of frame drop. Even training mode its clearly noticeable. The first SJ of the game forces a skip. if the first hit of the game is sj.lk, good luck getting that to combo immediately. The first assist call also causes the game to skip so the first helper interaction is going to very glitchy. Then there’s the fact that openers are more random than ever because of the HUGE amounts of slow down present. We don’t even know how they fixed cables AHVB yet. Typically with something like that, the fix causes another exploit but we’ll see.

but you’re right, that won’t take much adapting…:sad:

changing the game from its original dynamic is a step backwards. You’re being illogical.

alpha 3 died because of no good ports iirc. Marvel had a good port with the DC version. Based on history, you’re wrong. How many new players picked up alpha 3 on the DC only to realize that it wasn’t even the same fucking game and quit? a bad port will kill off 10 years of tournaments.

Marvel ain’t dead yet but capcom\backbone\and EVO are sure doing a hell of a job trying to kill it.

capcom\backbone really don’t give a fuck about the game based on the job they did with the ports. Sorry preppy, fuck capcom and fuck backbone. EVO jumped the gun by destorying\selling all the DC’s they had. Now mvc2 players are stuck between a rock and a hard place. We don’t have the perfect port anymore and we’re faced with a shittier version of the game.

Remember when ccc2 was the new ST standard only to be proved that it had input lag, more than usual? remember SF:AE and that travesty? The ST players had a chance to get their say in. Probably something along the lines of, yo this port is mad shitty lets not use it again. What do the marvel players have to say? yo this port is mad shitty, bring DC’s? not going to happen @ evo.

… ect

I think we are all a bit disappointed that its not exactly the same… even after the patch. I disagree that it’s a step backward. Next gen marvel with millions of new players… is not step back. I really hope that some things are fixed… the randomness of hulks gamma quake for instance is NOT mathematically generated in the same way at all and it has lost a lot… not to mention the frame dump has taken it from a moderately tight to cancel to a window of a few frames… pisses me the fuck off LOT. It was my bnb off 1/2 my shit with hulk and now its crap.

I still support the newer versions because they ARE the future and they ARE what pretty much all new players will learn on.

I agree that they jumped the gun on the transfer… another year of patchwork could have made a big diff and saved em from a lot of heat from the community. Since it didn’t go that way… we now need to fully support the new version so that patchwork is actually done. They will stop caring about it if the community turns its back in favor of dc version. Evo and other nationals set the stage for what the community uses… so even tho it may have been a year or so early… I’m glad they are making the jump… it gives us MORE reason to support it rather than less.

If we rip it to the ground and say it ain’t tourney worthy and won’t ever be… then we help kill its community and thereby end any chances that we’ll see the patches.

I agree that just accepting a worse engine and dealing with it would be a step back… but accepting a worse engine in the short term so that it has a future where patches are even possible may be what has to happen.

Your ccc2 example doesn’t hold the same precedent as it once would have here tho… console games didn’t get patched in those days… so the community had no reason to support the worse version in hopes they would fix it. We have that hope so long as we don’t sink it. 1 bad port can sink a game and has before… but not mahvel. We had more than one bad port of this game already… even people who ever only played the terrible ps2/xbox versions still love it…

edit:

Wow…it appears I got negative rep for something in this post?!? Is there anything in here that isn’t opinion?? The level of childish jackassery around here is amazing. Apparently supporting nextgen marvel or suggesting it can be fixed is grounds for disrespect around here. Obviously someone doesn’t like me… consider if you will that i’ll not be stooping to your level… except to offer… fuck off… since I’m above neg repping those I don’t like every time I don’t agree with their opinion.

Well, to be honest there is a limit to how much patches can fix on console games, the development platform isn’t as open as a PC, so Capcom can’t do anything they want to it whenever they want. Add in that if they fix something on the PS3 but not the Xbox MS will be up their asses… I will acknowledge that the PS3 version is currently in the lead for accuracy and I’ll definitely get it. Besides, the online play is free there so although I mostly hate online play, I won’t have to pay on the rare occasions that I’m in the mood for it.

MadTitan, I dunno who neg-repped you, wasn’t me. But talking about getting good or bad rep is a pretty much guaranteed road to neg-rep around here. It’s just reputation, no need to get bent out of shape over it anyways. Thanks for your input, though, and thanks to everyone in this thread who is helping me with this issue.

Hey I don’t care about my rep lvl… I do care about people coming by stuff I posted and neg repping without showing themselves or offering why. It’s a complete disrespect to someone (me) who is ridiculously nice and willing to see other sides or perspectives. If you knew me… you’d know what a laid back, decent, and good willed person I am… to come into this thread to share what is only opinion and is therefore neither correct nor wrong… and get disrespected… is a bit much.

Imagine that you had 2 hours and $20 to build a fence. If you fuck up, does that mean you don’t give a fuck?

My meta-takeaway is that Capcom-USA is Capcom-JPN’s tiny little kid brother. Go read the emails that Capcom-USA put up from last summer talking about the project. I don’t think it’s hard to read between the lines.

I think the peeps in the trenches definitely care/cared. Shit on “upper”(?) management if you want, but at the same time: it is a business, and there’s only so much they’re going to invest in a ten year old game, regardless of how cool “Paul from Florida” or “John Preppard from Seattle” (who are they?) and the XXX remaining die-hards feel that game is. The fact that MvC2 outsold HD Remix is reason to lightly dance in the streets.

I also suspect that the HD Remix fiasco probably pissed a lot of CapCom the fuck off and potentially fucked over Marvel redux and made sure that all work was very strictly limited in scope (let alone the “port-only no game changes” rules that were evidently in effect probably due to the Marvel deal). :sad:

I still don’t get why HDRemix gets the bad rap it does, I own that one and it’s not that bad.The artwork kinda blows, especially the new stages, but the game itself seems sound enough. I’m not as advanced as everyone else here is, though, so I can’t ‘see’ what’s under the hood, if you know what I mean.

Titan you’re taking SRK way too serious IMO. :encore:

Everybody tends to see anyone disagreeing with them as if the other party is shoveling shit their way or overly p.o.'d or something. If ppl think you’ll be offended by a neg rep, they’ll do it, bc it easy and anonymous and kinda funny. In fact expect to get a few more :]

Don’t worry about it, stick around and keep posting bc the Marvel 2 crew needs that low tier dedication. You’re well on your way through the ‘proving period’ which is a reality like or not. Pretty soon the game will click in a new way and you’ll really be helpin people out.

Back to the topic though–

Meditations on Marvel 2.1 or ECGief Tells It Like It Is

Here’s why Marvel is a special case (and why I can really appreciate Shoultz’ apprehensive position on the future of this new generation of ports)–

It goes like this-- the more you knowledge you accumulate about this particular game’s engine, the more you realize that it’s a fuckin MIRACLE of accidental game design that everything came together the way it did. This is NOT Super Turbo-- the product of years and years and years of a heavily played international sensation, painstakingly balanced through trial and error through multiple revisions. This game was never meant to be taken as seriously as it is, but it wound up being the most balanced utterly broken game ever. Unless you count the NES SF4 bootleg-- which has 2 versions of Rambo in it and 1 button infinites all around and a combo engine that makes Marvel actually start to look like ST but I digress.

There’s very little imo in terms of, for lack of a better term, “Advanced Tactics” that were designed to function as they do. Particularly Unblockables, Guard breaks and Infinites. This is not to say that these phenomenon were not known before Marvel, but insofar as they apply to each individual character, ya, there’s no way 90% of these were planned out in terms of balancing the character roster. Look at who was nerfed big time from past versions-- Akuma and Wolvie’s vitality is piss-poor (and shit-- they even split Logan in two to tone him down), they totally had certain characters figured for high tier that are just ass in comparison to characters that are mad broken for the randomest of reasons.

Look at the wealth of unblockables in the game. These are all based off of programming quirks that even the well-trained eye of seasoned Capcom ppl missed (i.e. they’re paid to look for this and have been for version after version). For the most part they’re due to either breaks in hitboxes (that allow you to set up situations where the game sees an active hitbox w/o first seeing start-up-- which is the “you can block this” trigger more or less) OR they’re a product of the dreaded Frame Cycle. This is simply the process by which the Naomi/Dreamcast translates the 72 frames/sec that it likes to process info at into the 60 fps that we know and love. My numbers could be off, but the point is that 1/5th of the frames in the game are not displayed visually or for gameplay purposes. This is why Doom/Tron/Chun are bwoppin people free at random.

It’s been 10 years, and every time I play Marvel, I figure out at a minimum 5 or 6 brand new ideas that send me in 5 or 6 new directions. And the deeper you go the more your understanding of what it possible with the way the game works evolves and eclipses itself. And if Joo the Japanese combo wizard can do the same thing, that speaks volumes about what a miracle it is in terms of the wide-open freedom of approach you get in the game. At a high level you really can create your own conditions for victory, which IMHO is the most underrated and hardest to implement feature of any game of any type, ever. I don’t wanna be asking myself whether the burly Hulk set-up I just lashed together Mac-Guyver-style with a cellphone, spit and pages from a phonebook is gonna work when I boot up the PS3 later, but the bottom line is, I’m gonna have to come tourney time.

Why have I put ppl through this random technical Marvel rant? Because Marvel is an incredibly fragile game. If you fuck with it, it will hurt you. And yeah, asking Capcom to balance and plan a 56 character roster is a stretch-- shit they didn’t even do it the FIRST time. It’s impossible unless you have a 10 year dev cycle. You can bet that they took a minimalist approach to this port bc they knew all of this. Definitely went for the change nothing we don’t have to approach and of course there’s a lot that went awry and a lot that remains to be fixed that will NEVER be fixed as of now bc they can’t be fixed by way of a patch-- i.e. would mean taking hundreds of steps backwards in terms of programming and creating a whole new build of the game. If I’m not mistaken this included the busted d+normals as well as the XBox lag.

I love Capcom, but the reality is that both versions of the game shipped in an embarrassing state and this has left a sour taste in the mouth of the peeps who have been students of the game like we like to get about our Street Fighter. Even if the original release was up to par with where the patch is at now, they still couldn’t please everyone bc PS3 and XBox aren’t DC just like DC wasn’t a NAOMI unit even if it was damn close.

So yeah, they’re doing their best I’m sure, but their best is not my best or Joo’s best or Shoultzula’s best or the random ‘OUR’ who love the game and randomly can’t sleep because Marvel is doing something retarded and we wanna know WHY. In this case ‘OUR best is better than their best’ for the simple fact that nobody at Capcom loves the game like the guy who’s been breaking the game wide-open for 10 years nor do they have 10 years to spare making it a flawless port.

In the scheme of the whole scope of the game, its a pretty damn good port, but ‘future of the game’ be damned it’s no DC version yet, nor will it be soon and that’s a fact.

P.S.

Didn’t see Zach’s post while I was crafting my masterpiece. He’s right though, and I hope my thoughts came out proper-- I have nothing against anybody involved in the porting of the game (or anybody at all). Ppl in the industry don’t even have the time to play games. Same thing in the comics industry, who has time to fool around when you spend 60 hours a week at work and about half that sleeping, on a good week. Although comics has the leg up bc you can read those while taking a dump while not everybody can afford an Astro City for the bathroom.

ec… everything you posted is true and most of it existed if you read between the lines in shoultz’s post… yet all of it ignores the fact that there will only ever be less working dc’s in the world tomorrow than there are today… Less working copies o’ marvel… less players who have played that version…

looking at these obvious facts we must understand that for this game to even EXIST for more than a couple more years… we MUST move on to the new versions. Show me another option… show me the shop pumping out new dc’s and fight sticks for them…

Since we know the ONLY way this game has a future is on nextgan consoles… you either choose to support them in hopes of patches or you choose rip on em with hopes of?..?..?..?..?

In other words… I’m saying “hey believe it or not… there is a forest over there behind those tree’s… like it or otherwise.”

Side note… over the summer I bought and refurbished a coin-op that now sits in my buddies garage and we play it constantly. Total price tag… 600ish bucks after getting a new stick for the p2 side and a couple other things. This is only couple hundred extra bucks over the cost of a ps3, 2 fight sticks, and the game… so you DO have that option…

…but it ain’t gonna work for nationals…

It’s nothing about the gameplay whatsoever. I’ve got a “Coming Fall 2007!” HDRemix shirt in my closet. That’s what I’m talking about: you blow a schedule by nearly a year, I bet management types remember that.

I’ve got 6 dreamcasts so I guess I never thought of that.

Honestly, it’s not as if we live in a post-apocalyptic world where we’re forced to make our own Dreamcasts that run on pig droppings-- give me 5 minutes and I can fix 1 in 3 DCs with a philips head. Also, Universal PCBs are the rage and they have lagless DC support.

Which reputable WSOP player is gonna tournament where 33.987% of the time a pair beats a set?? DC is the only viable option. Even if Evo runs PS3, expect to see finals run on DC.

Oh yeah this is all my opinion etctctc of course

I’m afraid that some of us are hoping to get the same old marvel back and patches be damned its probably not going to happen. Those who learn and played for years on a dc would probably desire to have the finals on dc… and who could blame em… I myself would join in this vote…

I still feel like enough pressure from the community would help convince capcom to patch their ass off… we can’t create this pressure if we don’t get behind new mahvel tho…

Say it’s better atm… hell no… but say that it can be salvaged… hell yes… If we want capcom to try then we can’t sit around giving them no incentive to do so… b/c they wont sell many more copies of a game that the community wont get behind… and they know it…