Tatsu to U1 is difficult on both sides for me. There are ways to make the dash happen faster but it’s still a very mashy motion. I hate it, after practicing it thousands of times, it’s still something I would not try in an important match. Can’t tell you how many whiffed ex palms I had to watch after the cancel while I was just rolling my eyes. I actually think this particular combo is pretty damn unforgiving as far as input leniency goes.
Does anyone know what extatsu x fadc - forward dash is on block? If I try to calculate, I come to +5fr on block based upon frame data (wiki). But I do not believe in that, more likely i did an error… Does anyone know?
EX.Tatsu(on block) - FADC forward is +1
-Frame after special-FADC/FADC
all ver.Palm(on block) FADC forward +1F / FADC back -8F
EX.Palm(1st hit, on hit) FADC forward +5F / FADC back -4F
all ver.Tatsu(on block) FADC forward +1F / FADC back -8F
LP.Hado(on hit) FADC forward +9F (on block) FADC forward +5F
FA lv.1(on hit/block) DC forward ±0 / DC back -9F
FA lv.2(on block) DC forward +6F / DC back -3F
U1 or U2? I like the raw damage of U1 but realize that U2 can punish things much better. Help!
Most people will tell you to use Ultra 2 in most match-ups. Logically it makes sense; you can get into it in more ways and the stun opportunities are incredible.
But most “pro” players (Veloc1raptor, Shine, etc) use a lot of Ultra 1 compared to the rest of us. I feel like Ultra 1 is becoming the better choice:
- Ultra 2 from EX Palm mid screen adds like 150 damage to the combo, especially if it’s not a raw punish
- “Top” players are very difficult to stun after Ultra, especially after the Demon Flip grab stun nerf in Ultra
- Most ultra opportunities are in the corner, where Ultra 1 is a lot stronger
The only cons of Ultra 1 are that you can’t combo after palms and that you have to burn a lot of meter to get into it mid screen.
That said, this is just my view and I think most people here will give you the standard answer: Ultra 2 except against Balrog, Abel, Fei Long, and a few others.
I either choose U1 or W. I can’t think of any mu’s where I pick Denjin by itself.
UW makes zero sense to me. The damage reduction to UW1 makes it do the same amount of damage as U2 would. So all choosing UW does is reduce the amount of damage that denjin does, without adding anything that I can think of.
My personal rule of thumb is to use U2 in matchups where I’ll want to either catch them in a AAfireball/denjin or I want to punish fullscreen-escapes. Otherwise use U1.
Agreed
I guess it’s for the option of punishing that full screen jump with a Denjin… even if the damage is reduced, he’s still getting nearly 300 damage for a full-screen anti air.
The way I see it is Denjin never did a massive amount of damage anyway and the stun scaling is diff because of the glitch. Not to mention stun scaling overall,
I think U1 is viable in every match up, but I can’t say the same for U2. But there are times where I want U2 bc of the mu options. I’m not so worried about the damage reduction to U1 bc in previous times it was either or, and it still does more damage than Denjin at a reduced rate.
I just don’t mind trading a little Denjin damage for more options. 
And if I can stun them and have Denjin it still does stupid damage if Gouken lands it fully.
Just my way of looking at things, I like having options. Lol
here are the numbers, just to be clear:
U1 503
Bt/u1 404
U2 300/400
Bt-j.mp-u2 291/380
UW1 381
Bt-UW1 306
UW2 227/260
Bt-j.mp-uW2 240/380
you are losing a LOT of U1 damage for going UW, to the point of making it pointless, IMHO.
Thanks for the help, folks. Think I’ll stick with U1 unless I’m facing characters where U2 clearly helps (ex. Blanka).
I get it from a “damage” stand point, but everything isn’t just about the numbers damage wise. Opting just to have U1 yeah I just stick with that, but if I want to choose U2, there’s not that much damage loses going to W and you get the extra option to have U1.
Not to mention you get a hkd set up after landing either ultra.
I’m just saying I rather have the options of both Ultras rather than U2 alone. U1 alone yes, U2 alone = no I rather have my options and utility.
There’s so many times I went with U2 alone and some how wished that I had U1.
I don’t get bent out of shape about losing a little stun bc or slight damage bc Gouken does a lot of damage and stun as is. But that’s just how I roll. I understand you guys not wanting to give up damage though…
I still don’t understand what you gain from UW1 tho.
can you give me a specific example scenario where UW1 is the correct choice?
I wouldn’t say “correct choice” more like preference per the way I play. I don’t strictly zone with Gouken so I find having both can be useful.
For example vs Sagat I pick W.
W2 to make him limit his tiger shots and I have W1 for when I get a back throw from him doing bad tiger knees, miss tiger uppercut, or doing a bad jump in.
Same with Akuma. I want W2 to limit his fireballs/air fireballs and teleports and W1 for general punishes.
Of course we always have pain train for damage but whenever I can use Ultra and get the hkd I almost always ultra them and rush them down on their wake and hold on to my ex meter.
Guy is another one that I usually pick W against. U2 snipes his air bs and U1 for when he wants to run across the screen.
I’m not concerned so much about the damage loss vs limiting their options.
I usually only pick W when I prefer Denjin in the MU bc I usually make up for the damage loss in other ways. I just usually don’t mind giving up a little bit of damage to have Shin sho available in most cases, as it still does more damage than Denjin even as an extra option.
But if I HAD to just have one ultra it would be U1.
ok, but let’s look at those numbers:
Backthrow-j.mp-u2 291/380
Backthrow-UW1 306
This means that if you had just chosen U2, you’d lose 15 damage but gain 380 stun on your backthrow-to-ultra, while gaining all the non-scaled damage and stun from a footsie U2 vs UW2.
I don’t know what “general punishes” means, but the same logic applies if you start with backthrow
ok, a raw punish like this might make it make sense. Doesn’t the overhead kick ending fly over top U1? Or am I remembering wrong?
perhaps you’ve found the 1 matchup where I’d consider UW, but I dunno, extatsu does a fine job now against his rush bs.
I don’t think there’s a right or wrong choice when it comes to Ultra unless you are vs. Grapplers and characters who don’t care about fireballs.
I do think that whenever I do have W and I land Shin Sho I could have ended some matches sooner than I would have otherwise if I had U1, but normally when I pick W, I wanted to have Denjin.
I just can’t think of too many matches where I just want to have Denjin and that’s it.
I love using EX Tatsu, but strategically sometimes I want to get the hard knock down and save the meter to either finish them off or stun them on their next mistake since DWU doesn’t bother my set ups much.
If you crunch the numbers including the damage scaling with common punishes it won’t be that big of a difference.
Try these:
cr fp > ex palm > U1/W1/U2/W2
st fp > ex palm > U1/W1/U2/W2
cr fp > hado > cr fp > ex palm > U1/W1/U2/W2
I was facing an insane Makoto last night, really made me HATE the focus attack system. At one point the guy kept back-dashing after every dive kick, so I made a great read and did a palm. Was feeling great about myself…until I lost the match. How the hell do you contain Makoto? Gets in for FREE. Will upload a vid soon.
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Liberal use of far stand heavy punch, it’s a surprisingly good normal vs Makoto to stick out. It catches axe kicks and is very good against most of her air normals and especially her dash.
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Zone the ever loving shit out of her at far range. At mid range it is less safe to throw fireballs out. Don’t be afraid to do so occasionally, and be ready to fs.HP to blow up her axe kicks and forward dashes.
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A trick I like to use against Makoto is to stick out s.LK buffered into EX Tatsu from just outside her forward dash karakusa range. If she dashes up to try something cute your s.LK will catch her and it’s like 250 free damage
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Ultra 2 is incredibly easy to bait. Makoto players who use it don’t know the matchup or are just trying it out. 16 frames start-up means they have to use it when they see Gouken’s fireball start. If you use s.MP when their Ultra 2 is stacked they give you a free max damage punish very often, especially if they aren’t experienced.
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Makoto blows against demon flip pressure. Mixing up between divekicks and demon flip parries can seriously mess with her and make her think twice about throwing up that up punch. You can easily condition Makoto to give you free pressure just by successfully parrying a single up punch. When you are pressuring Makoto, cancelling normals to light demon flip whatever is really really really good. Once you have established that Parry exists and they need to respect it, you can mess her up with corner LK reset shenanigans.
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I don’t recommend faux setups on Makoto almost ever because up punch has crazy priority.
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Use the cross-up (unblockable in AE) divekick setup: fthrow->dash forward->EX Delayed DF Divekick. It’s very easy. if you don’t delay it, you don’t cross up. This is 50/50 on normal wake-up.
Amazing, thank you so much!!! What about punishing her moves on block, like her dash punch? I was experimenting with different punishes and nothing worked.