It’s a very dangerous block string he is using, after the c.lk he’s at -2(blocked)+1(hit) so the following c.LP gives at best a 5 frame gap if the lk is blocked and a 3f gap on hit(2f on counterhit). It’ll work better on people that are patient and trying to late tech, especially if expecting backthrow. The 2 light kicks also create a nice gap that allows him to use our incredibly fast dash combined with a throw for a quick surprise. It will work more if opponents are in a mindset of a throw is a better situation than getting counterhit by Gouken and relying on reactions to tech a backthrow. the string nor throw will work on people that are addicted to their fast shorts and teching early.
This isn’t really much of a shuffle though, as opposed to the gootecks shuffle this relies on them being so patient as to not do anything where that one baits into pushing a button. More like a strawberry slide(the dash). God I love arguing semantics when I really shouldn’t :3
I can’t tell you why it works, but another one that seems to work for me is safejump, sc.mp, cr.hp, dash forward, throw. It’s like nobody ever expects it, and also seems to beat a lot of button mashing.
Alright we’ll call it the Strawberry Slide lol. Sounds way better!
So if I’m understanding what you said correctly, it’s essentially an anti-patient player technology, and it will work against people mashing out their fast jabs/kicks?
I use it all the time and I picked it up from watching him. The block string ending with cr.lk puts you at the PERFECT distance for a dash in throw. Our dash is so freaking fast that people never see it coming. I dont use it and abuse it so my personal success rate is about 90% but I use it quite a bit. I used to wonder myself why people fall for something so simple. I had a set with Delf a while ago and had it done to me and said “Ohhhhhhh…wow, that shit is SUPER fast” lol. Its just one of those things that just…works.
I use dash in throw alot on wakeup also. Back in the day when I was trying to incorporate dash throw in my game, I noticed that people either Dp’d on wakeup or cr. teched. It was always one or the other. So I would get a knockdown, and sometimes instead of going for a safe jump, just throw out a couple of lp jabs to throw the opponent off and wait until sliiiightly after they get up and dash in throw…not slightly as in as soon as you are actually able to throw the opponent on wakeup, just slightly after that. It works alot because your opponent is looking for you to attack them on their wakeup being that they just got knockdown…so they’re trying to read you, watching out, buffering or something and not cr. teching also because you’re nowhere near them. Then when you dont, right on their wake, they get out of that reactionary mode and start attempting to mount an offense. Right in between there is that sweet spot where you can dash in and throw. I know Im like, seriously breaking it down here but in simple terms…stand at dash distance, throw out a couple of feints and dash in like a mili-second after they’ve already stood and throw. Completely throws people off.
I say all of that to say that the reason why Strawberry’s thing works so well is because it abuses the same train of thought. After you blockstring, your opponent is looking for a hado, flip, or just a reset of position and they’re actually prepared to deal with all 3 off these. A dash in throw just completely throws them off and they never see it coming. It abuses the defense to offense train-of-thought-switch “window”. Goukens dash is so fast also that it just exponentializes the success rate.
I like what you said about the train of thought switch. I actually have several different “Modes” that Gouken can use and the times when I’m vulnerable are when I’m switching in between because I haven’t decided what to do yet. I do think there is something visual about the Strawberry Slide that just makes Gouken look like he is either going to sit and wait passively after the second LK, or maybe throw a fireball. It’s strange but maybe the combination of the two LK’s back to back makes it look like you’re trying to make room to escape, so the last thing they expect is a dash in. Also maybe its short enough of a string to not make the opponent want to immediately counterattack you. I’ve noticed there is some sort “rage” or something that builds up the longer you keep an opponent in block stun, so they’ll be more likely to mash reversal.
For those curious, the modes I came up with are:
[LIST=1]
[]CWRA: Crouch, Wait, React Accordingly. For when you just finished an offensive string of moves/attacks, just sit and wait for an unsafe attack or jump in.
[]Grounded: Perfect defense/anti-air, but constantly moving forward toward your opponent. No jumping and no fireballs allowed. Really freaks people out.
[]Airborne: Force decision making with constant jumping and glfip in and out of range, lots of LK Gflip parry, from long distance. Good for making your opponent want to come and attack. Switch to Grounded right after to throw them for a loop.
[]Fireball Factory: Nonstop Fireballs with EX tatsu, HP Parry, and MP fake fireball on standby.
[/LIST]
Im a doing a similar thing just a bit different. I tend to go for the “blockstring” cr.lp - cr.lp - far.lk quite often to push the opp out of throw as well as cr. tech and effective SRK range. Usually Goukens tend to do the cr.mp in lp hado, cr.hk or some other pokes then. But if not abused, the dash in throw catches many by suprise. Sometimes I mix it up by close mk (also 3fr start up) in lp senku (corner) or lp hado (on hit in sweep). cr.lp - cr.lp - far.lk gives me the perfect range for dash in close mk. Some times I even go for dash in lp kongo to catch their throw tech if i have seen the opp already cr.teching regularly in the match.
basically these 3 options:
defense, i.e. block or backdash
usual poking
dash in pressue in throw or close mk, at best as counter hit.
I believe that this can score, because the opp is stopping to focus on cr.tech (out of throw range), but still in defense mode (vs. longe range pokes). The dash in then provokes a cr.lp or cr.tech…
Been watching a ton of Gouken videos on Yoga Flame’s channel. Very interesting tech. I have a few more dumb questions:
What is his safe jump?
Can you use Shin Shoryu Ultra on wakeup if they’re jumping in after they do a hard knockdown on you? I assume it would be too slow to catch them.
I’ve been reading about unblockable setups by Cammy and a few other characters like Adon. Do they not work on Gouken? I assume he can do high counter on wakeup to blow them up or even EX Tatsu. Of course they can bait you to do that, but at least you don’t have to worry about the unblockable.
Depends on the type of knockdown. It’s getting used to a lot of specific timings and using divekicks to alternate.
It is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too slow to do that(Assuming it’s a safe jump and even a lot of unsafe jumps will still be fine).
Safe jumps beat out 5f reversals(and if timed really well 4f as well) So Goukens 7f EX Tatsu and 11f Ultra are no go. However if they jump in front of you super(3f) will catch safe jumps and counter(1f) can beat them if they press a button.
Yep goukens 1f move means he has a get out of unblockable free card. It’s all about guessing how they are gonna attack you.
Safe jumps: F.throw, dash, mk Gouken Flip, mash kick will get you a 4 frame safe jump. Sweep (at any distance), mk Gouken Flip, mash kick also. If you’re in the corner do lk Gouken Flip because mk will cross over while they’re on the ground and put you in the corner. SN: If you do this frame perfect you will get a 3 frame safe jump which is essentially an early jump or empty jump but in dive kick form. You have to be careful because everyone wakeups with throw on a jump in so if you get the frame perfect one you’ll get thrown. Just OS throw on your safe jump to be safe until you can get a feel for the timings. Safe jumps in the corner is hard knock down, hk, neutral jump, hp…4 framer. Another midscreen is f.throw, cr.lk, walk forward juust a tad diagonal jump torward them with, hp…3 frame safe jump for shotos and T. Hawk. But for shotos you dont want to be doing the safe jump/early/empty jump because it leaves you with relatively no options. You need to do a deep dive kick. F.throw, f.dash, hk Gouken Flip, at the top of their head push kick. DP’s will not auto correct and will whiff everytime or get stuffed for a full combo. Personally, when I do a deep one I hold the Demon Flip a bit longer and try to cross up with it. Sometime it will crossup and if it doesnt Gouken will hit the opponent and come down on the other side. About 80% of the time the opponents dont switch their blocking and you can land a st.cl.mp, ex palm. But be careful though because this one, you’re not in his neutral zone above the head and DP’s have a better chance or auto correcting.
Dont ever Shin Sho on wakeup - whether you see them jumping or not
Yeaah I guess Gouken can shut down unblockables. But like you said, obviously they can empty jump so be cautious. Also, most of the time if its an unblockable it may veer into the safe jump realm also. If this is the case you have to kongo mid using mp because the jump in is deep. Hp will lose because its not hitting over your head. Even if its a deep crossup, you have to kongo mid. Its kinda like when Gouken faces Gouken. If I do that 4 frame safe dive kick on you that I mentioned up top, my dive kick will hit in between your knee and ankle on your wakeup. You cant kongo high, it will lose because I’m not making contact with that part of the body, even though its a jump in.
So what are some frame traps with Gouken? The only one I’m aware of at the moment is the cl.s.MP, s.MP
Does he have any into f.MP? Because that would be pretty cool.
Cr.lp (x1 or 2), cr.hp is probably the frame trap of choice amongst everyone here. You can also do the jabs and do f.st.mp but you have to wait a tinsy but longer as it comes out faster. Another is cl.st.mp or cr.lp, wait a tinsy bit and do lp palm
Just wanna say, those are frame traps with huge gaps. Crouch Jab to crouch Fierce is 6f on block and 3f on hit. Bipsons won’t have any of that.
Our tightest frame trap(after close Strong to any 5 frame move) is our corner close Forward xx Hadou, which is a 1f gap on block between the hadou and the following Forward, it’s big hole is actually between the forward and hadou cancel which is 4f gap on block.
Awesome! Thanks for the quick response.
Time to add these to my game. I never use his L attacks enough. Except for maybe cr.LK during footsies.
He can link after 1 L attack right? Just not after chaining them?
And a separate question:
When OS crouch teching, how useful is cr.LP + cr.LK +cr.MP? I try to throw it out occasionally since cr.MK has a short range.
If Bison doesn’t have meter, I normally just walk up to him and lp palm his wake up. He better back dash, block, or teleport. If not, he’s toast.
I think what DEK09 is getting at, is using frame traps to catch someone not mashing reversal, and trying to tech late.
I personally use a lot of cr. lp jab strings to lock them down… when they are getting up… i exclusively use cl. st mp and lp palm. I have some other tech I add to it for the mirror… but that’s about it.
cl. st. mp > is probably the best starter for anything else though, cl. st. mp is +4 on block… so you are in a good space for most follow ups afterwards… and if it hits you can link to anything… if they aren’t pressing reversal then you are solid… if they are mashing then this is where you’d normally block or EX flip to blow them up.
So what you’re saying is that I can’t use any of these online (lol)?
I don’t think I’ve ever played anyone online that wasn’t constantly mashing DP reversal…
But thanks for all the info guys. I’m going to have to just read through this entire thread and make note of cool/useful things I find. It’s about time I actually stepped up my Gouken. Now I just need to work on Safe Jumping Shoto DPs (if that’s even possible).
I use them online all the time. If some one is mashing DP then block or EX Flip and you can punish them. They’ll stop mashing after you max combo’d them a couple of times if they are smart…
cr. lp chain jabs… will push Gouken out if the opponent is blocking… go into training mode and set Gouken to cr. lp repeatedly… if you do it correctly… you can’t mash or jump out b/c autoblock makes you stay there. Randomly stop jabbing, to see if they are mashing… if they are mashing they will fly in the air… blow them up for it. This helps push out out of range on command grabbers too… other than that… Gouken doesn’t have any safe block strings as frame traps as everything else can be reversaled through… not unless you are that GDLK and can get ct. st. mp > cr. lp on block as a one frame link everytime. (thus my reason for wanting, cl. st. mp to be +5 on block)
Goukens far ranged frame traps, probably serve a better purpose from a safety stand point… it cr. lk> cr. mp etc… but again that just depends on what you are trying to do. He’s def. not a one solution kinda guy, and we all play him differently… so some of the things I’d say do, some other Goukens won’t do and vice versa.
No safe jumping shoto’s… they need to be stuffed or hit in the back shoulder. There is a safe jumping thread that can provide a lot of the set ups for you… but some how, that and the unblockable thread have been buried… The Tragedy of the Gouken boards. Gouken Safe Jumps
