Netcode

[Paper_Tank]

Front page worthy rant

I feel like there’s some trolling in dat dere post.

[Monster637]

I got a patch for xbox …seems normal/same

[SimSimIV]

Like someone else said: If I didn’t know the sound fix could possibly cause slightly delay, I wouldn’t have noticed anything, but I know, and I have noticed a slight delay. It might be coincidence or placebo, but it definitely felt like there was some extra delay. It didn’t mess up my game though, but I would still prefer sound issues over a slight delay.

[Monster637]

i think alot of people trippin, just like it threw me off playing with no sound and i adapted , now there is sound throwing people off…its the freaking same or damn close.

[MorningstarPAer]

I find very little difference between pre and post patch gameplay. Game is still very playable.

[Rugalitarian]

There is no additional input lag post patch. Stop playing while high.

[Chesterlight]

Are you really blaming those who wanted the sound fixed? It’s not like we had to choose one or the other.

[w00denTEETH]

I haven’t played the patched version yet…but I am glad that you guys can hear your jump roundhouse->crouch sweep combos without any fear of an out of sync sound effect occurring now. :tup:

[ViolentDjango]

This is my point exactly. Capcom is reinventing the wheel here. GGPO works, and it is mature. Instead of designing around already-working and mature netcode Capcom chose to create their own inferior, in-house version. Don’t get me wrong, even the SFxTK netcode is light years better than anything input-delay oriented (SSF4, UMVC3). That said, GGPO is by far the superior of the two.

Issue is that its a lot harder for them to use GGPO, and if the folks behind GGPO ever decided to pull the plug (i.e. stop working with CC on new games), Capcom would be SOL if they didn’t have a contingency plan. They want their own code so they can be self reliant – I can’t blame them. The way gamers act an be a bit frightful for a lot of investors, and GGPO, honestly, hasn’t had to deal with how gamers REALLY get when something doesn’t work the way they think it should.

[zukuu1]

Why is Capcom not using GGPO on all of their fighting games?

Seth Killian: GGPO has been fantastic for 2D-style fighting games, and the dev teams here have been very pleased with our results.

That said, it is not as easy to impelement for games that use 3D models and other very processor and/or memory intensive functions. Those processor and memory intensive functions make roll back much more, “expensive,” and depending on the design architecture, it can be prohibitive in some cases. That doesn’t mean those challenges can’t be solved, but it does mean it’s definitely not as simple as it might sound.

I can’t get in to much more detail for two reasons I hope you can accept:

1. Although I understand parts of the process very well, and have some understanding of coding, I am not a programmer or a network engineer. I have been in enough of these technical discussions to see some of the challenges, and see that they are not able to be solved immediately by back-of-the-napkin math.

2. Getting into further technical detail would point to pieces of our internal development that are sensitive industry info.

For the record, you don’t need to sell me on GGPO I started talking about GGPO at Capcom literally the day after I started (yes, literally). Since that time, Capcom has been very impressed with the results and the tech has attracted some other big internal advocates, including Christian Svensson. As a result Capcom has not only licensed GGPO officially, we’ve gone from using GGPO-style netcode in games like Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix and MvC2, to the real deal with the more recent Final Fight: Double Impact. Capcom is most definitely not done with GGPO.

Anyway, you’d be hard-pressed to find bigger GGPO advocates than myself and Sven, but your voices are a very valuable contribution to that dialogue here, so if you have strong feelings like I do, please continue to share
GGPOish technology first appeared in hardware-intensive 3D games, like 1st person shooters, so it doesn’t make a lot of sense to bring that up as a limitation.

Seth Killian: There are some major dis-analogies between Capcom fighters and some other games that use 3D models (for instance shooters are able to use predictive rollback in a transparent way much more easily for a variety of reasons (ask Ponder!), although YouTube is also full of outraged, “I shot first!” videos showing that there are still some problems).

I’m sure it’s possible to make a 3D fighter where it might be as simple as what you suggest, but in our case, it isn’t. Beyond reiterating that, “I am not a (real) programmer,” and some internal issues about the way the games are built, I will add at least that when I was making some of the initial pushes for this tech, I came to the table with many of your same views. I’m still bullish on GGPO, but I’ve learned the hard way that it’s definitely not as simple as it’s being described here. Far from impossible, but also far from simple.

The only games that have used GGPO are various Capcom games from Backbone Entertainment and Blazblue.

Svensson: To be clear on a few points, to date, I believe the the only commercially released game using GGPO anywhere has been Final Fight: Double Impact (or at least, it was the only one… if there’s something that’s come out after it that I’m not aware of, apologies). I am aware of other games in development using GGPO, but not yet on the market that I’m aware of. Until they’re in the market, let’s not sing their praises just yet (though I am happy to see Ponder getting more support).

Other games have used “similar gamestate replay” concepts but not GGPO specifically. And please stop comparing 1st person shooters to fighting games in terms of networking and predictive code. They are apples and oranges in terms of the sensitivities of having predictive collision, arbitration and error correction. They are not less challenging, but they are different.

Lastly, I thought Blazblue used variable input delay, not fixed frame like GGPO (I’m sure someone will correct me).

[Shinebox]

I like how people were posting how great the netcode was until the rest of the world got the game. Its not like SSF4, it’s more like Mortal Kombat, sluggish to get a match then you finally connect and well… just find some friends that play it offline…

[AlboShinobi]

I like how people were posting how great the netcode was until the rest of the world got the game. Its not like SSF4, it’s more like Mortal Kombat, sluggish to get a match then you finally connect and well… just find some friends that play it offline…

Really? I liked how people were posting how it’s pretty much the best netcode out of any major fighting game title even after weeks from release…

[Wikum]

just played some games. the sound still bugs a tiny bit…but it’s way better than before. if there is any additional input lag it’s pretty much unnoticeable for me.

[option.iv]

Personally, sound wasn’t a big issue for me. It’s great though that the overall netcode experience doesn’t seem changed post patch. However, it seems that my biggest gripe with this game is that it’s more rollback apparent than GGPO. It feels like a bunch of micro rollbacks in higher frequency in comparison to GGPO with seemingly slightly larger rollbacks with less frequency. The rollbacks in this game are enough to throw off my hitconfirms and get me jabbed out of my block strings…

This netcode I’ll say it’s decent at least, but I would’ve been happier if it stuck to the SF4 netcode. Hell I prefer Soul Calibur’s netcode to this.

[w00denTEETH]

I cannot execute a demon flip throw on 50% of the green bar connections that I play on in SF4 (probably an understatement). I demon flip, I try to throw, I get a sweep instead. I have not done this one time when playing SFxT. I literally have not done it once.

[shoultzula]

Ayano continues to say that if they were to fix the sound issues that the online play would suffer causing more lag.

Capcom says can't fix online audio in Street Fighter X Tekken without causing...

There was a shoryuken version and if you look hard enough I’m sure you will find it. That pretty much shits all over the speculation of people saying it has no lag post patch.

and the people who are complaining about this net code being as bad as mk9 or rather have sf4 net code simply have no idea. Tired of seeing that moronic crap by uneducated people. Its that shitty ass uneducated mind set that is preventing the community from advancing forward with god like net code. Your mind set is why we’re here right now reverting back to more input delay. Great job holding back the community though.

[otori]

It’s not like you can rely on sound during tournaments anyway

[roknin]

I had no issues with the netcode aside from the sound problems before, but I’m definitely of the “no lag >>> sound” side of things.

I played a couple matches last night and didn’t notice much of a difference, but I generally don’t play with the sound on anyway, lol. I’ll try it later this evening - hopefully no lag is introduced, which it sounds like it largely isn’t. SFxT and SCV have have been the best online experiences I’ve had so far.

I absolutely cannot stand input lag. I live/die by my ability to react to things visually… playing in mud (SF4, MvC3) kills me.

[shoultzula]

I had no issues with the netcode aside from the sound problems before, but I’m definitely of the “no lag >>> sound” side of things.

I played a couple matches last night and didn’t notice much of a difference, but I generally don’t play with the sound on anyway, lol. I’ll try it later this evening - hopefully no lag is introduced, which it sounds like it largely isn’t. SFxT and SCV have have been the best online experiences I’ve had so far.

I absolutely cannot stand input lag. I live/die by my ability to react to things visually… playing in mud (SF4, MvC3) kills me.

Ayano continues to say that if they were to fix the sound issues that the online play would suffer causing more lag.

http://www.original-gamer.com/article/3507-Capcom-says-cant-fix-online-audio-in-Street-Fighter-X-Tekken-without-causing-more-lag

There was a shoryuken version and if you look hard enough I’m sure you will find it. That pretty much shits all over the speculation of people saying it has no lag post patch.

and the people who are complaining about this net code being as bad as mk9 or rather have sf4 net code simply have no idea. Tired of seeing that moronic crap by uneducated people. Its that shitty ass uneducated mind set that is preventing the community from advancing forward with god like net code. Your mind set is why we’re here right now reverting back to more input delay. Great job holding back the community though.

[otori]

How does ggpo do it then?
I do think the easy way out is to add like 5-10 frames of input delay, but it might be possible to fix it without compromising the rollback so much. Still, even if the game now has an imbued, fixed delay it’s still ages better than having sf4’s variable input delay.
If only we could set our lag threshold…