Don’t worry,mi understand, and I welcome the discussion. Just through this conversation (and a few trips to the lab to keep from being totally ignorant XD ) I’ve learned alot about Jill’s matchup that I didn’t really know before. And yeah, same to you for KEEPING IT CLASSY
**The thing about nemesis’ resets that I always hated is that if you Mess one up your on a disadvantage due to there recovery frames. Jill’s reset aren’t throw based (hell, she does have throw based resets but her Somersault and Command dash ones are much better). Jill has the best of two worlds, Somersault and near escapable mixup resets (LOL, Frank cart assist+FH–> Command dashup upfwd. S) She also has Raven Kick Resets since it causes hard knockdown. Vsing agressive opponents? 22S,Somersault after raven to punish. Defensive? 22S,Upfwd j.S mixup. Great OS. **
**That’s why I think Jill is better in the Reset department. **
Also, here’s what I like to call :NonSexualRice’s Pure rough Anal Reset:
From Midscreen: M,H,2H,4H,22S,Somersault, j.HS, MMHS,MMHS, LAND,22S, Dash,22S,Somersault.
That works on Back Tech’s. On front tech’s reverse it. On Neutral tech’s all you do is Jump up instead. It’s really really Damn good. Only people
Nice stuff man. Insightful on both parts, Imma have to run My nemesis more often haha. Would love to show you and everyone some of my newer tech (Flip kick, double Fc.Cancel into normals combo for huge damage? Yes plz) but I have no camera =/
I’ll agree to disagree on the reset front XD
I agree. This was a good conversation. Makes me wanna give Jill a run to see if she clicks with me.
Reset game greater than Nemesis? Now that’s debateable, Jill has some good resets i can give you that. But the amount of ways Nemesis can Tentacle Slam you makes his reset game one of the best game in the game, not to mention the amount of damage and near-unescapable factor of his resets.
2 Resets will kill every character in the game off of 1 meter from 100% after two full bnbs Post reset, Which CAN work. Plus, there are inescape Nemesis resets that are pretty much guranteed ToD. When I reset somebody with Nemesis I AM GOING TO ToD you, this might seem like an exaggeration Nemesis resets have been escaped before- but only through input drops Character specific escapes or XF speed boosts. I am not letting you live even if you’re Thor. Which is why I do the Tentacle Slam loops which chips off a good 400,000 (two s.L and two Tentacle Slams) including two meterless Nemesis BnBs which do around 580k, Even if your Thor you are going to die. His resets don’t even require assists but when he does use them he heavily benefits from even greater mixup oppourtunities. Like “Call Strider Vajra -> Force Block -> Enough blockstun for tentacle slam L to startup and catch you out of blockstun”. Or Even using Samurai Edge for free jab resets.
You say that Nemesis resets are very punishable on whiff, i’ll give you that it is. But honestly the timing is not that hard to master and once you’ve got it- it’s pretty easy to do consistently on any character which is why it’s so reliable. If the reset input was so hard to do I would not be doing them as much as I do them. I don’t depend on them like without them Nemesis loses, but with them boost his game tenfold, any competent Nemesis player can tell you that resets make every hit confirm into a ToD pretty much for 1 meter. Plus they’re not THAT punishable, if the opponent back techs on whiffed tentacle slam, they won’t have time to counterattack unless it’s in the corner on front-tech that’s a different story. On the Rocket Slam corner reset tentacle slam H whiffing is not that bad, plus that reset is hard to miss it’s just timing that once practiced becomes unescapable for most of the cast escape for the small folk.
Besides the many ways of Nemesis to reset a majority of them are nigh-inescapable and once its completed, as long as the combo isn’t dropped (It’s Nemesis, it’s’ hard to drop a combo with him offline) The character is dead from 100%. And it doesn’t even matter, Nemesis can ToD Meterless with his nigh-inescapable resets if the situation required it, which regardless Nemesis builds allot of meter from Tentacle slam resets, being so it doesn’t even need to be a 100%- any compotent Nemesis player would windle their opponents health down with Deadly Reach and Safe pokes to widdle their opponents health down.
Not to mention that most characters are guaranteed can not escape Nemesis’s Clothesline Reset (Anybody pretty much without any aerial movement attacks that are fast enough). Neutral, Forward, Back, Double Jump, Attack Nemesis does not give a crap you will fall into Tentacle Slam M regardless.
In comparison to Jill her reset game is great I’m not undermining it, but I know Nemesis’ reset game is IMMENSELY good.
lol, Nemesis reset game is second to no one.
Reset tier
Nemesis > Wesker > Firebrand > Magneto / Thor / Haggar > the rest.
pretty much sums up everything I could ever say in regards to Nemesis’s resets XD
i played a few good Jills the last two days (gg NonSexualRice): her Somersault was negating my j.H which led into a hurt (but not dead) Nemesis, when i empty jumped i faced ridiculous mixups. today someone was Somersaulting constantly and the command dash mixups were opening me up pretty bad - it got to the point that i’d XF when i touched her just to stop the madness. i didn’t want to use Air Deadly Reach because most of the time she was in my face and i thought it would whiff. correct me if i’m wrong, but i don’t think she has a way to escape Tentacle Slam resets, either.
i feel even though Jill has a slight advantage tools wise, she’s gotta work harder for the win.
She doesn’t but she’s small which makes the margin for error smaller, meaning harder to tentacle slam but once it works it works 100%.
I run into alot of those same problems when facing a Jill in the hands of a pro, which would be Al Frappicino here on Live. If he starts rushing me too much, I try to make him respect j.M and j.S which really helps me get him off me and give me space. I know OWA the Guru told me to use those for people who don’t like to respect Nemmy’s space. Of course, always watch out for Somersault! o.o
Perhaps we should classify Nemesis resets as a different type of reset altogether. Jill and all other normal resets are resets where your opponent has to guess. Nemesis resets are your opponent has to know.
Also, serpentarus’ reset tier needs to be fixed a little
Strider>Nemesis>Wesker>Jill>Firebrand>Magneto/Thor/Haggar/>Everyone else
I curious as to why you rank strider as higher than nemesis. Is it because of the WTF free reset factor of orobouros, or his teleports, or what?
It’s more of a culmination of his character leads to constant mixups and resets. TPs, grabs, attacks that put people in just the right position, Oroboros, mobility to be in range. Basically, Strider was built to reset, where as Nemesis, while he does have godly resets, has to set them up more than Strider, who can do it very naturally.
Ah, I see what you mean.
I feel like that just makes him a straight up “mixup” character rather than a “reset” character. They’re similar, yes, but I feel like reset characters really RELY on those resets. They’re as useful and often used as bnbs for them. For mixup characters, sure they use resets, but their gameplay doesn’t really revolve around them like reset based characters do.
The key difference between resets and mixups is simply this: Mixups let people in to do damage. Resets allow for psuedo ToD combos. This means two very different things
To go into labeling Strider as a mixup character, lets start first with Nemesis. Nemesis doesn’t rely on resets. He has brute strength and zoning to fall back on and they work well for him. But low damage characters often need those resets far more than Nemesis does. The goal in this game is to defeat the opponent, as we all know. Nemesis doesn’t need resets to kill, he just benefits greatly from it. Sort of like how Wesker isn’t a zoning character even though the gun is spectacular: he doesn’t need to rely on his gun, but it sure helps. Someone like Strider though can’t land ToD combos easily, so in a way, he HAS to reset to get those ToDs. Infact, Strider especially needs those resets, as he even lacks a nice LVL1 Hyper to grant over 500,000 damage on simple BnB combos like other low damage characters(Firebrand comes to mind as a great example of a Hyper doing all the work).
A mixup character, rather, is someone who needs get in only once to do ToD level combos, and rarely resets. Zero is the key definition here. You rarely see Zero go for resets even though he has the means to do it. Same goes for Dante. It all essentially comes down to damage: Does a character need a reset? Or are his combos so bloodying that even if he doesn’t kill, his opponent is on life support?
So using your own definition, Nemesis isn’t really a reset character while Strider is.
Hmm. An interesting interpretation. I suppose that is somewhat true according to my stated definition.
I guess what makes me doubt striders resets is, like you said, resets are pseudo ToD combos, while mixeups let people in to deal that damage. The way I interpret both of those is that resets are TECHNICALLY two separate combos, but the way they are setup and created can be treated much more like one really long combo (especially with nemesis as we all know). I interprete mixups as tactics that are designed to start completely new combos, regardless of what came before it. Therefore, characters with good mixups have good options for starting new combos and landing those hits, but all those combos are very much separate. Reset characters can be good at landing that first hit, or sucky, but once they get that hit in, they have the option to keep that combo going longer than a normal combo, via resetting.
By this logic, strider would be a GREAT mixup character, almost to the point of being very similar to a reset character, but not quite. Nemesis however is a reset character, because despite his above average damage, he needs to use those resets to maximize his damage outside of x factor and burning dumb amounts of meter.
Technically, both are very, very similar (and rather I’ll defined by the community), but that’s how I interpret them. Its a rather nebulous topic. I think this is a stronger definition of my thoughts on the subject than my previous one.
Bro, Hawkeye only caution? Hawkeye completely fucks any Nemesis up, it doesn’t matter at all how good your Nemesis is you are NOT getting near Hawkeye. Nuffers
I think the main thing keeping Hawkeye out of Lethal category is that he doesn’t have much mobility to escape if he gets pinned. Of course, getting him to that position sucks ass. Deadpool’s a harder matchup simply because he can easily negate all the hard work Nemesis puts into getting close via teleport.
this right here. even though Hawkeye DOES molest Nemesis from afar, that’s because that’s the only range hawkeye is straight up the best at. Hawkeye HAS to keep nemesis out, because if he slips up and Nemesis gets in, he is dead. He doesnt have many good GTFO options up close, and THAT’S where nemesis wants to be. basically, this is kind of a Teeter-totte kind of matchup: whichever character is in their “comfort zone” has the advantage, and will destroy the other one.
also, I agree on your remark about Deadpool Gilgamesh, he’s almost as good as Hawkeye at zoning Nemesis out, and he actually has optionf for getting away once Nemesis DOES get in. He’s a frightening matchup. Once I nemesis gets in on hawkeye, there’s not too much to worry about, but once you get in on deadpool, you’re not done yet.
not even close.
I’d honestly put Deadpool in the lethal category simply based on how effectively he shuts down Nemesis. Wesker and Doom beat Nemesis with a combination of keepaway and awesome moves. Deadpool can shut Nemesis down on keepaway alone.
fought a deadpool the other day that was just WRECKING MY SHIT with his keepaway. I really didnt know what to do, he was totally spot on 100% of the time.