Thanks Mac and OWA. I’ll try that out. I love playing with this team.
Something I’ve been wondering is how do you factor assists in here. Do you not factor them at all? Nemesis almost always has assists backing him, so I’m curious how someone like Strider would help against the like of some of his harsher matches.
I can’t say for OWA, but most matchup threads only consider 1v1 since assists can change a character SO MUCH sometimes. you gotta know a character’s solo weaknesses (and strengths) before you can figure out the best way to build a team around them.
I figured as much. Still, sometimes assists are meant to increase effectiveness of a character(Doom Beam), where as sometimes they are meant to circumvent a weakness(Vajra), and I’ve known a few instances where people take an assists that is always there for granted when talking about matchups.
Regardless of an assists’ use, it would make explaining the matchup incredibly long and complicated, then it becomes very situational and complex. I’m trying to keep it simple on the 1 v 1 kind of scenarios so people could circumvent the weaknesses or strengths of a matchup with assists in the meta-game included. I mean Trish 1 v 1 Nemesis is a keepaway monster, add Vajra and its allot easier but that doesn’t make the matchup a “Trivial” from a caution. Granted there are also situations where people don’t use/have the right assist, say Strider is dead, he got happy birthday’ed then allot of explanation for the matchup here would be null and void.
THIS.
I loves me some Nemesis, but I run into a problem every time I face a Zero player. I’ve been having some trouble keeping smaller rushdown characters out as it is, but Zero in particular has been giving me the most grief.
Aaand here’s my solution. Most of the time I end up throwing out BHR to slip them up, but I’ll be giving cr.H some more love soon.
In the time between now and that last post, I’ve realized something.
As much as I love BHR, it’s a TERRIBLE punish hyper, since it’s not startup invincible, or armored, or ANYTHING on its long ass startup. It’s plain old not worth it unless you can relly really tell the opponent committed to something stupid. It’s best used for DHC wars.
Also, s.H has FASTER armor than cr.H, so of the pressure is really TIGHT, go for that one, not cr.H
Wut? Jill can Somersault every Rushdown attempt that Nemesis tries to go to. Also You’re forgetting the huge speed and movability that Jill gets from her Feral dash (that goes so low that it goes underneath Deadly reach and can punish it. with a Somersault as well.
Nemesis can’t zone jill out at all by the time he goes for a rocket, it gives her enough time to 22S–> 8 or Arrow kick feint to get up to him.
Jill’s wavedash is useless since she can 22S–>8–>22S–8-->etc.
JIll’s in her favour in this matchup. Much so because Nemesis cannot zone her out, or Rush her down.
j.H kinda killed allot of Jill players, not so much Deadly Reach but j.H. Anyways i’m revamping the Matchups thread to a more updated version so I definitely see your points though. Not to mention armored moves, and angled deadly reach.
Wut? How would J.H kill jill when she can just Somersault through it as well?
Angled deadly reach doesn’t help since Jill can just DASH underneath it and Go for a mixup once Nem drops to the fall. You’re underestimating her speed man.
Allot of Jills i’ve played always try to use Feral Dash to cross me up or go under neath since j.H goes through every darn spot it provided me pretty safe options. Somersault may go through it but I have to face a Jill where she Somersaulted every single thing she did. If Nemesis is close to the ground i’m pretty sure Angled Deadly reach would make some contact. I don’t under estimate her speed, but I think your underestimating Nemesis as well, he’s slow but he’s not limited to just 1 option. Your right Nemesis can’t zone Jill (dunno what I was thinking there) but that doesn’t mean Nemesis can’t rush down Jill either. Jill can’t block in Feral stance. I know Somersault is good but if that were the case Jill would be destroying the entire cast with Somersault. I used to play a bit of Jill and i know she’s fast. You can’t say that Every time Nemesis attacks Jill will be both in Feral Stance and ready to somersault, she can’t move or block when going into Feral Stance. There won’t be an ideal situation where every time Nemesis does a single move he’s going to Somersaulted.
Maybe I haven’t played enough Jill experts, it’s the same with people underestimating Nemesis. i’m just going off of my experience against Jill players.
We can’t simply judge a matchup based on one person’s experience. We have to come to a general consensus, with adequate knowledge regarding both characters and their interactions. I believe the point was for OnlyWingedAngel to put his experience with each matchup here to be critiqued, judged, and altered based on input of others.
That being said, seeing as OnlyWingedAngel is the only person who has contributed in such a fashion and to such a significant degree, we have to naturally defer to his opinion as it is the closest thing we have until proven wrong or invalid. Most importantly, note that a lot of arguments when it comes to character matchups are THEORY based. Each person assumes that their character will always have the right answer to each problem at the ready each time. It’s like saying because Akuma has invincible DP, it’s not wise to air dash into him. Such things can be bypassed easily. In this instance, it’s foolish to assume that Jill will be using Somersault all the time. Which is why firsthand experience has such importance here. Theory fighting always takes the human out of the equation. If someone can somersault Nemesis 100% of the time, I’d like to meet this person to see if it’s human.
This may be something you guys read and go ‘Yeah I know’ and move on, but remember, it’s important to remember these things once in a while. The best way to forget something is to insist you remember it.
And to offer my two cents on the subject(in theory fighter form of course): Any character who relies on side switching to get in(especially if there isn’t a high priority follow up) will suffer vs Nemesis. All of his moves, not just jH, cover so much ground that getting close enough to cross him up can be an issue. The other issue with Jill is that any character speedy reset no health character runs the risk of just being mauled by a random Nemesis Swing. It’s the same issue with Hulk or Sentinel of course, but the point is still there. Jill, Strider, Firebrand, they all have to work pretty hard to kill Nemesis. But Strider has control on his side, and Firebrand has air mobility. Jill has to approach from the ground, and into the arms of a waiting Nemesis. And Nemesis often bunny hops too, which brings us back to jH and it’s anti-mixup powers
Which is why i’m revamping the thread lol, this is first impressions of the matchups but now that we have gotten into the game’s main life cycle and more concrete idea of the game itself we’re going past most of the theory fighting and based on previous matchup experiences.
Lol, you simply haven’t played a competent Jill. Jill DOES destroy most of the cast with Somersault (Rushdown only characters that is), that’s why he’s easily A tier. Jill WILL always be in Feral Stance because that’s how she simply is, there is no other reason NOT to be in FC with jill rather than if your comboing or blocking.
Jill has a large amount of invincibility frames on the beginning and end of her Dash, So all you have to do is wait till the last possible moment of a nemesis attack and move.
Just the fact that both you and Colonel Gilgamesh are debating the fact whether or not that Jill will always be in FC is absurd. The whole aspect of Jill relies on her Somersault and ease of getting into FC (hell, everything cancels into it, EVEN FC ITSELF), and it is EASILY able to be canceled into with normals or specials, any damn near competent Jill player knows this as well. 22S–>Somersault Can be inputted in it’s first possible frame, meaning going against it Head on not possible.
Pretty much with Jill it goes back to this.
- You will always be in Feral Crouch
- If not in Feral Crouch, you will be blocking or comboing
- OH MY GOD AN ATTACK IS COMMING! Somersault. Blocked? Jump Cancel into BS.
- OH MY GOD AN ATTACK IS COMMING! Dash forward/back and block
- OH MY GOD AN ATTACK IS COMMING x3. Cool, wait till last possible frame or moment and Dash then 22S again and Dash once more.
I’m not gonna continue arguing since I don’t have much Jill experience. Instead, I’ll just point out some things in your post and call it a day.
Does this mean that you’ll never be blocking, since you’ll always be in Feral Crouch?
Don’t think I ever mentioned FC in my post.
As I said, I don’t have much experience with Jill, but I will say that if this was as half as destructive as you paint it, we’d probably see more than just Clockwork playing her on occasion. Not doubting it’s potential, but I’m skeptic and haven’t seen evidence to the contrary.
Bible gives it 5 frames of invincibility 9-14. I wouldn’t count 5 as a lot of invincibility frames, but, given that it’s a 17 frame move, I suppose it’s true that a good chunk of the move is invincible.
When you mention Somersault you are also mentioning Feral Crouch. You cannot Somersault without Feral Crouch.
Same can be said with Viper. Clock said that Jill isn’t on alot of tournament machines, thus bringing us the reason why she is underplayed.
It means that you more or less won’t have to necessarily block. Somersault is an “offensive block”. Opponent’s coming, cool. Somersault them to hell and combo into 800k+ damage. If she ever has to block she can just Back dash and block >_> or she’s blocking during jumps.
That’s what more or less seperates Jill from the rest of the cast. The ability to turn the tide of a battle through one hugely invincible special.
Ok. I’m not claiming to be a Jill expert or have a huge amount of matchup experience, but I honestly cannot believe you when you say that Jill just has every answer to nemesis in this situation. I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but I think that’s an exaggeration.
Based upon the bible and your own statements, yes, Jill has alot of invincibility to work with in somersault and FC. From what I know, those are great tools for her. However, I cannot be anything but skeptical when you claim that Jill is nigh unapproachable with these tools. While the stance is good and the move is good, I feel you are forgetting the HUMAN aspect of this matchup, as well as the team aspect. Asking a player, even a Jill player, to be able to switch to a stance and cancel into that move AT ANY NOTICE is unrealistic. That move could be the most godlike move in the world, and I’d still call you out because that’s like saying “ryu is unapproachable in street fighter because of all the invincibility on his DP! As long as he always reacts, you can’t do anything!” (yes, I know Jill has legitimately good options after a blocked SS, but at its core, I feel both arguments are similar enough). You are assuming the Jill player will never be late on a command, or mess up in any way. She’s paper thin, any mistake vs nemesis WILL hurt, and he CAN capitalize on any hit he lands.
Also, I feel like nemmys ground armor could still hit her out of somersault, unless it hits more than once. I’m pretty sure it only hits once, but PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong. Even if s.H or cr.H’s active frames end before her invincibility, he could cancel it into ANOTHER armored move and hit her theoretically. Risky, but it’s a legit option if the Jill player gets in the habit of pressing buttons.
And then there’s the team aspect. Any nemesis player worth their salt will rush down with an assist that will either force the opponent to stand still/block, or will make him safe if he whiffs or gets blocked. Drones, beams, vajra, etc. most nemesis’s come packed with assists MADE for tacking matchups like these. I’m not saying the nemesis gets a free pass getting in, but with a team behind him (nemesis almost always does) its not impossible, or even improbable.
And, since FC doesn’t allow Jill to block OR call,assists since its a special (she can’t call them right. Once again, correct me if I fuck up), that means a Jill that’s got an twitchy trigger finger on FC could go without 2 major defensive options at a crucial time.
I’m not saying Jill is free, or even easy for nemesis. FC and SS provide legit threats for nemesis. But they’re not this ungodly nemesis killer either, except MAYBE 1on1, but this is a team game, and nemesis is usually 1st and on point.
Just tested it out in the lab. Nemesis CAN beat out somersault with an armored move. Is tight though, for BOTH characters. In all honesty, I’d consider that situation a trade, because both characters would need the timing, or luck, of a god to beat out the other consistantly. Using RL slam as an anti button press works as well, but it’s still risky, for both characters.
I’d personally say this trade is SLIGHTLY (and I mean slightly) in nemmys favor, if only because he only needs to press 1 button on any reaction/prediction. Jill has just a little more she has to do before somersault comes out, so in a neutral situation, I feel like nemesis would have the edge. His option is just a smidgen harder to fuck up.
Outside of neutral, it’s up in the air, maybe slightly in Jill’s favor, but honestly, I feel this matchup comes down to team construction.
Ok. I’m not claiming to be a Jill expert or have a huge amount of matchup experience, but I honestly cannot believe you when you say that Jill just has every answer to nemesis in this situation. I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but I think that’s an exaggeration.
Based upon the bible and your own statements, yes, Jill has alot of invincibility to work with in somersault and FC. From what I know, those are great tools for her. However, I cannot be anything but skeptical when you claim that Jill is nigh unapproachable with these tools. While the stance is good and the move is good, I feel you are forgetting the HUMAN aspect of this matchup, as well as the team aspect. Asking a player, even a Jill player, to be able to switch to a stance and cancel into that move AT ANY NOTICE is unrealistic. That move could be the most godlike move in the world, and I’d still call you out because that’s like saying “ryu is unapproachable in street fighter because of all the invincibility on his DP! As long as he always reacts, you can’t do anything!” (yes, I know Jill has legitimately good options after a blocked SS, but at its core, I feel both arguments are similar enough). You are assuming the Jill player will never be late on a command, or mess up in any way. She’s paper thin, any mistake vs nemesis WILL hurt, and he CAN capitalize on any hit he lands.
**Wut. I bait out and Somersault bionic arms all the time. That argument is really weird because Shoryuken’s are punishable to all hell on block or whiff, while Jill’s opens up more options. So IMO, the argument is really flawed. However yeah, you’re right. One mistake and she’s dead, but That can be said for every single character as well (Hell even Zero). **
**If the Jill player does Mess up, she can always cancel into another 22S–>M to frame trap Nemesis and most of the cast lol. The problem being that 22S–>Somersault with no follow up has a large amount of recovery frames. I mess up all the time, but covering your mistakes with mixups and Frame traps are what Jill does best. **
Also DoubleSalts (LOL INVCIBILITY FRAMESx2)
Also, I feel like nemmys ground armor could still hit her out of somersault, unless it hits more than once. I’m pretty sure it only hits once, but PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong. Even if s.H or cr.H’s active frames end before her invincibility, he could cancel it into ANOTHER armored move and hit her theoretically. Risky, but it’s a legit option if the Jill player gets in the habit of pressing buttons.
This is correct. She has to watch the hell out for his Armored moments. However, Double Salting defeats Armored moves. The only problem is that Double Somersaulting (summersalt,22S,Somersault) has a tight window for input. But it ain’t that bad.
And then there’s the team aspect. Any nemesis player worth their salt will rush down with an assist that will either force the opponent to stand still/block, or will make him safe if he whiffs or gets blocked. Drones, beams, vajra, etc. most nemesis’s come packed with assists MADE for tacking matchups like these.
Assists give Jill"
Machine Gun Spray+ Assist makes calling out any assist with Nemesis a bad idea and an instant happy birthday,
** 1.5m with assists, Unblockable situations,etc. **
** Most Jill’s come PACKED with dealing with most matchups as well. Frank West, and Strider is a deadly team.**
**Jill with Assists can more or less kill Nemesis with 1 hitconfirm and One reset. **
**Jill and Assists> Nemesis and Assists. **
I’m not saying the nemesis gets a free pass getting in, but with a team behind him (nemesis almost always does) its not impossible, or even improbable.
And, since FC doesn’t allow Jill to block OR call,assists since its a special (she can’t call them right. Once again, correct me if I fuck up), that means a Jill that’s got an twitchy trigger finger on FC could go without 2 major defensive options at a crucial time.
**Jill blocking in FC doesn’t mean much, Somersault is your new block. Also this isn’t saying that jill won’t ever block, she can just Feral Dash then block. She can call them right when your putting in the motion for 22S so it’s no big deal really. **
I’m not saying Jill is free, or even easy for nemesis. FC and SS provide legit threats for nemesis. But they’re not this ungodly nemesis killer either, except MAYBE 1on1, but this is a team game, and nemesis is usually 1st and on point.
**. However you’re certainly correct. Nemesis’ Armored moves DO beat out Some.Salt but that’s what double salting is for. **
**Factoring assists into a Jill v Nemesis argument is a legitamely bad thing to do in a matchup especially vsing nemmy. Especially considering Nemesis’ overall gigantic size and Jill’s obscene reset games with and without assists. **
**Jill has alot of dumb stuff going on with her, and even without factoring in her “theory and harder execution things”, she still has a larger advantage especially when factoring in assists. I would put it at 8-2 or at worse 6-4. Either way, I firmly believe that the matchup is NOT Neutral. Either way you put it, with Assists or without, Jill has an answer to more or less everything nemesis decides to do (Double Somersaulting to beat Armor, Somersault, I frames,etc.). **
**I want you guys to know that I’m not arguing with you, infact this discussion is really an insightful debate and I applaud you guys for Keeping it civilized =D. **