Necalli General Thread: Necalli enters the Tournament!

[uppercutoflegend]

I use the command throw a lot in the corner, s.lk -> command throw is really good. My normal throws always seem to get teched for some reason.

However, I completely understand where you coming from in regard to being ready to AA when they are in the corner. I’m not sure whether DP is the best option though. This is a huge hole in my game, I let them jump out way too easily. What are you guys using to punish neutral jumps in the corner? For that matter, what are you using to punish neutral jumps period? I’m not satisfied with my ability to punish neutral jumps with DP. Maybe my reactions just suck though.

[docvizzo]

Just a quick question:

Which DP do you guys use? I usually always use HP DP as an anti air, MP DP is non existant in my game.

Is there any reason to use MP? The trajectories of MP looks different, but im not sure if there are any Situations where MP DP would hit and HP DP wouldnt.

Unfortunately both wont really hit when the opponent is on top of Necalli…

[Sharktongue]

not a christian post. shame on me edited

[Sharktongue]

Just a quick question:

Which DP do you guys use? I usually always use HP DP as an anti air, MP DP is non existant in my game.

Is there any reason to use MP? The trajectories of MP looks different, but im not sure if there are any Situations where MP DP would hit and HP DP wouldnt.

Unfortunately both wont really hit when the opponent is on top of Necalli…

Not sure about mp. lp dp hits opponents that are right on top of necalli. Better option is to walk forward a bit and jab them. jumpback short is also good for pesky jump arcs right above your head. I tend to block though myself.

[AndyG]

First off, noone said anything about using command throw over normal throw in most scenarios. in fact everyone is pointing to not using it in most scenarios, and only in the corner. Secondly you were claiming in your first post that you want to use command throw mid screen because it’s better. Then in second you do a complete 180 and then question why use it ever? I mean come the fuck on man. that isn’t opening up a discussion. That’s asking to be spoonfed shit that is a) beginner esque, or b) you just wanna type and debate, not learn or do anything. Simple fact is mutton and others who do a lot of research has stated all the frame data and when use these throws in here already. so if you just read the threads, you would have known already these things. Or actually play necalli (which is one of my main gripes with people. i am convinced 10% of posters actually play necalli, rest just talk and have no real premise on discussing him).

Actually, I came in asking about command throw because after discussion with a few top players, we decided it was an “almost-never-use-this” move. A friend of mine told me there were midscreen followups, but couldn’t find the video. After that I came asking about said midscreen followups. @Muttonman helped out by saying you don’t get any followups midscreen, so at that point I did start asking why to ever use it. That is, I changed my tune because of the advice I was reading, not in spite of it.

As for research, I am currently the primary frame data reference for SFV – continuing to develop VFrames is a significant time investment, so I tend to ask others for help for character specifics so I can go out and win my locals without letting the app slip. I’m sorry you feel so antagonized here, but the forums are not just wiki pages to be perused – they are places for discussion. To that end, it’s often more efficient to ask other knowledgeable players for help.

Also stating the reasons why you would use it does translate in tourney wins. Because apparently you have no idea how/when to use it, and even go so far as to question why anyone would use a command throw over a regular throw. I’m not going to go back n forth. By my post count/yearjoin you can surmise that arguing back and forth isn’t my thing. But yea, your line of questioning and trying to open up a conversation on a topic that is utterly stupid as shit(i stand by this completely) just detracts from people who actually wanna know things and issues that are legitimate. (like which anti air to use question that was just asked).

Oh and if i was inclined i’m a 100% sure i can find a video of haitani or any legit necalli who corner traps someone use command throw repeatedly. it’s a legit and staple mixup to meaty into command throw or meaty into strike etc etc when you have them cornered. Pretty sure when i watched those tourneys i’ve seen him do it. Just not interested in finding the footage to continue a debate with you. I get the sense you argue to argue.

I’m not sure what your point is here. I ask simple questions not for argument’s sake, but so I can go win tournaments without sacrificing time labbing things others have already discovered and are buried within tech threads. If this is not sufficient, I’ll have to just apologize for my ignorance on the subject. As for videos where Haitani does a lot of command throws in a row, you don’t have to look far – he does it in the video I linked. But I have observed a trend where top Necalli players are using non-EX command throw less and less over time, sometimes to the point of never using it, especially outside of the corner. That is, during my research of and discussion with other strong players and my own many hours playing Necalli and analyzing risk/reward, I hypothesize that normal command throw is something you should almost never use. Is it wrong for me to want to come to the forums to confirm this? I think not – others have been quite helpful and I have learned from thinking openly about this. This is why stuff like “FGC Discord Illuminati” comes to be; sharing information is the best thing we can do, even when that information is already available elsewhere. You never know who you will befriend and what you might learn from them.

Those videos you put up are such a shit argument man. Small sample pool and highly subjective. Do you know the matchups of chun and karin? Do you realize how good haitani is in his absurd spacing skills to give justin wong’s Karin such fits? Do you know how hard it is to get close to them to put them in a mixup where c.throw is viable? and when you are in, their wakeup options you have to look out for? No shit you’re not throwing them a lot. Ask birdie, or f.a.n.g. , or nash, or laura players what they think about necalli’s command throw. Or dhalsim. Especially sim. There are so many uses for c.throw, or even the threat of it. Play the damn game.

What I’m getting at here is that command throw beats two things: pure down back, and late tech. Pure down back gets beaten by throw, late tech gets beaten by shimmy or delayed normal. Both of these get roughly the same reward as command throw, but neither carries the same risk as command throw against the standard command throw response (neutral jump). Shimmy can get poked and confirmed into super, so that’s risky too, but at least if you’re encouraging them to press buttons, you can capitalize later – encouraging someone to neutral jump doesn’t get Necalli much, although it is ever-so-slightly easier to catch prejump frames with a s.MK after the recent balance changes, so maybe there is more merit now. This is my analysis of the subject and when speaking to other strong players, their conclusions (in theory and in practice) are similar. This is a deep analysis that goes beyond “command throw can’t be teched” and is based on a lot of research and has been confirmed by some other players here. I hope someone reading this gleans some insight.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m very happy to discuss when and where to use it in certain matchups. And even if I was completely misguided and command throw was great in the corner and terrible midscreen, you can always just say “actually dude, you’ve got it wrong, it’s like this…”. But if this sort of discussion makes you uncomfortable because “play the game and all will become clear, scrub” isn’t sufficient, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree both on when to use command throw and on how to best help other players. Specifically, I will continue assuming other human beings are competent and worth talking to until proven otherwise.

[AndyG]

Just a quick question:

Which DP do you guys use? I usually always use HP DP as an anti air, MP DP is non existant in my game.

Is there any reason to use MP? The trajectories of MP looks different, but im not sure if there are any Situations where MP DP would hit and HP DP wouldnt.

Unfortunately both wont really hit when the opponent is on top of Necalli…

HP DP is your primary AA if you can get it out in time. Jab is good in a pinch against a lot of moves (moonsault, ressenha, birdie dive, chun vskill at crossup range) and crouching jab has its uses (low air lightning legs).

MP DP has the unique property of gaining its invulnerability very late (after you’re already airborne) and keeping it later than HP DP (HP is 1-7 invul, MP is 7-12 invul). That gives it a niche against moves like vega EX walldive, where that late invulnerability is really useful for stuffing the move high, before it gets near you and crosses you up. I haven’t tried it against too much, but I suspect there are some similar use cases against bison.

LP DP and EX DP start up fastest, which is nice if you want to tack on a little extra damage in the corner after target combo. EX DP is also fast and invincible – in theory, there are setups which will safe jump necalli if he does HP DP but not if he does EX DP, but I don’t expect such setups to be relevant for a while and then only at the highest level of play.

[Sharktongue]

no need for me be so petty. good day

[AndyG]

You’re basically validating my post ._.

Actually, I came in asking about command throw because after discussion with a few top players, we decided it was an “almost-never-use-this” move. A friend of mine told me there were midscreen followups, but couldn’t find the video. After that I came asking about said midscreen followups. @Muttonman helped out by saying you don’t get any followups midscreen, so at that point I did start asking why to ever use it. That is, I changed my tune because of the advice I was reading, not in spite of it.

And if you have these top players in your backpocket to discuss things, why would you change your tune to srker’s who typically , while above average, aren’t the equilavent of top players?

Like I said man, somebody I trust told me there was a video of setups off command throw. I didn’t know of any so I asked the forums since A: nobody I was talking to could find a video or give me a straight answer and B: I actually did briefly look over the other threads but couldn’t find anything (because there is nothing). I didn’t think I would have to go to such lengths to explain why I asked a question, but here we are :rolleyes: That said, based on what I had been told I did phrase it as “there are setups, what are they” and not “are there setups?” which I apologize for and seems to be the part you’ve taken the most offense to.

I’m still thinking command grab is an underwhelming option in the corner and a near-useless option midscreen, and that is based on Muttonman correcting me where I was wrong and confirming where he agreed.

Thanks for the nj MP > super punish, I hadn’t thought of that or seen it yet! That does give a little more merit to command grab, even in midscreen. Turns out talking on forums gets me stuff I can use :lol: I will have to add that to the arsenal.

[Muttonman]

Sweet lord almighty why the hell are you so crazy over someone going “I don’t really like his normal command throw.”

The other use for it is that it beats both an early tech and a late tech; do it on their wakeup and if they didn’t jump/backdash/reversal they get grabbed. Also useful for that dash up grab as Necalli has no normal grab range.

That said, you should be careful with trying to catch back jumps. I’m not sure if a whiff grab -> DP catches all the back jumps like how Alex’s EX Knee does so you may have to do a CA or just let them leave.

[AndyG]

Sweet lord almighty why the hell are you so crazy over someone going “I don’t really like his normal command throw.”

The other use for it is that it beats both an early tech and a late tech; do it on their wakeup and if they didn’t jump/backdash/reversal they get grabbed. Also useful for that dash up grab as Necalli has no normal grab range.

That said, you should be careful with trying to catch back jumps. I’m not sure if a whiff grab -> DP catches all the back jumps like how Alex’s EX Knee does so you may have to do a CA or just let them leave.

I’ve had some success with dash command throw against folks that tech on reaction. I still tend toward dash s.MK or dash normal throw as the mixup… one in ten times or so I’ll do the command throw and it works out, but I’m never convinced it was the best choice. Whatever I guess, damage is damage.

If somebody does back jump on me I just move forward and take my space. CA there is pretty cool, I should experiment with that, but people don’t tend to jump back on me since I do a ton of s.MK and catch prejumps.

Actually I just thought of the place I use command throw the most, and it’s usually after a s.LP anti-air. People wanna pick a side and guess and late tech, or just mash. Both lose to the command throw if you time it right. It’s kind of a Marvel philosophy of “guess a side, oh wait this is a throw”. This is my favorite time to use EX command throw because if I’m spending that meter I want the success rate to be as high as possible.

[docvizzo]

Just a quick question:

Which DP do you guys use? I usually always use HP DP as an anti air, MP DP is non existant in my game.

Is there any reason to use MP? The trajectories of MP looks different, but im not sure if there are any Situations where MP DP would hit and HP DP wouldnt.

Unfortunately both wont really hit when the opponent is on top of Necalli…

HP DP is your primary AA if you can get it out in time. Jab is good in a pinch against a lot of moves (moonsault, ressenha, birdie dive, chun vskill at crossup range) and crouching jab has its uses (low air lightning legs).

MP DP has the unique property of gaining its invulnerability very late (after you’re already airborne) and keeping it later than HP DP (HP is 1-7 invul, MP is 7-12 invul). That gives it a niche against moves like vega EX walldive, where that late invulnerability is really useful for stuffing the move high, before it gets near you and crosses you up. I haven’t tried it against too much, but I suspect there are some similar use cases against bison.

LP DP and EX DP start up fastest, which is nice if you want to tack on a little extra damage in the corner after target combo. EX DP is also fast and invincible – in theory, there are setups which will safe jump necalli if he does HP DP but not if he does EX DP, but I don’t expect such setups to be relevant for a while and then only at the highest level of play.

Excellent, thank you. For whatever reason i forgot MP DP has late invincibility, just checked in my prima books and you are completely right. I also thought its invincible from Frame 1 on…my fault ¯_(ツ)_/¯.

[TheDewMan32]

dive kick is kinda butt.

We were all expecting a pressure character at first (given some of the initial posts I’ve seen) but hes something else.

I found something interesting with divekick a while ago, I haven’t seen anyone talk about this anywhere. There’s a sweet spot on people’s hurtboxes that you can hit divekick and it will hit deeper than usual, resulting in more frame advantage than usual. And in V-Trigger, you get EVEN MORE frame advantage. Enough to link St. MK, even if you hit them standing. There are definitely some Evil Ryu style setups where you force them to react to divekick or crossup, and you actually get a good combo if you land the divekick.

However I agree with you to an extent. Outside of V-Trigger, divekick is kinda butt. Only really useful if they rely heavily on normal anti-airs.

[Feel_The_Byrne]

Anyone try using st mk as an anti air? It has a weird hitbox at times that can catch oppenents performing a crossup, even if Necalli is facing the other direction. I can upload a vid of it happening in a match, though it does seem kinda flukey.

[AndyG]

Anyone try using st mk as an anti air? It has a weird hitbox at times that can catch oppenents performing a crossup, even if Necalli is facing the other direction. I can upload a vid of it happening in a match, though it does seem kinda flukey.

Sometimes it just comes out “naturally” for me but I think there are very few situations where s.LP is inferior to s.MK. I can’t think of any off the top of my head.

[AndyG]

WCW team tournament today, my team got 5th. Most of the path to the finals was easy and then we ran into Brentt/Julio/chrisT. I beat brentt and was one hit from beating Julio too which I am pleasantly surprised about because I don’t have much Ken experience (I do understand the theory though). After that Mike L Na (vega) swept our team, but like with Julio it was really close.

I think Ken is even, but I think Vega gives Necalli trouble. It sounds weird but I think I actually need to jump more in that matchup.

What are people doing to meaty after LP dash punch? Is there any easy setup that hits both backroll and quick getup?

[Ryoga_P_Chan]

Like I said man, somebody I trust told me there was a video of setups off command throw.

I’ve found this:

AndyG, it is an HONOR to have you looking after VFrames, and playing Necalli.

[AndyG]

Like I said man, somebody I trust told me there was a video of setups off command throw.

I’ve found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKfZmCeI1tc

AndyG, it is an HONOR to have you looking after VFrames, and playing Necalli.

such a good video, thanks for this man! at that time I was looking for stuff midscreen (there isn’t any, I’m an idiot and we established this already lol) but this will be great to practice. I love brian f’s videos and videos like them – without too much time to lab out my own setups anymore, it’s always good to have something I can just steal, practice for a half hour, and immediately see some results

[LaMaquina]

such a good video, thanks for this man! at that time I was looking for stuff midscreen (there isn’t any, I’m an idiot and we established this already lol) but this will be great to practice. I love brian f’s videos and videos like them – without too much time to lab out my own setups anymore, it’s always good to have something I can just steal, practice for a half hour, and immediately see some results

Brian is doing great things with Necalli research. Follow him on Twitch to watch him grind it out in Ranked, as well!

[LockM]

I’ve been trying to optimize some common situations for Necalli regarding his combos, mainly during v-trigger, a common string Necalli players do is st.lk, st.mk, cr.mp. This is a great string but if you give up a bit of pressure then in turn you might gain a LOT of damage, talking about this string st.lk, cr.mp. During V-trigger this string is great.

Outside of v-trigger it’s mainly used as a frametrap:
st.lk(blocked), cr.mp xx qcf+mk.
On counterhit cr.mp combos into qcf+mk, if the qcf+mk trades it also allows for a nice combo. Unfortunately outside of V-Trigger this string gives up quite a bit of pressure opportunity, so it’s the tradeoff you have to make. I would stick with st.lk, st.mk, cr.mp, but if you need a comeback then this is a string which might be usefull to keep in mind.

During V-Trigger it shines though.
Before that i want to mention st.lk, st.mk, st.mp xx bf+hp won’t combo if the st.lk was a counterhit on wakeup, so you then have to do st.lk, st.mk, cr.mp xx bf+mp. You give up a bit of damage and corner carry then. It’s another small annoyance to keep in mind while playing Necalli. However with st.lk, cr.mp you don’t have to worry about that during V-Trigger.
*
st.lk, cr.mp xx qcf+mk, cr.mp xx bf+mp*
This is the reason why st.lk cr.mp is strong, during V-Trigger Necalli can combo into qcf+mk from medium punch attacks. If st.lk is blocked and cr.mp hits you can link another cr.mp during v-trigger o reaction and still finish the combo. When you cancel from a cr.mp you move forward a lot, so you will(almost) always be able to do a hp dp(it whiffs sometimes when you do a crossup, st.mp xx qcf+mk, after crossup just do the Disc’s Guidance as an ender) for the full 3 hits which does a bit more damage than st.mp xx qcf+mk, cr.mp xx bf+mp. You however do get slightly worse oki and corner carry.

cr.mp, cr.mp is also a blockstring which catches 3f normals like st.mk, cr.mp, you do cr.mp, c.r, mp only after a st.lk, if you forego the st.lk just start with st.mp.

You could make the argument that the st.mk leaves you closer, however Necalli his walkspeed during vtrigger is improved and he has longer reach on his normals and cr.mp has the same frame advantage on block as st.mk, i say you can still apply the same pressure.

If you don’t start with st.lk, forget about starting with cr.mp, just start with st.mp then. St.mp does 10 more damage than st.mk, it can also cancel into bf+hp unlike cr.mp, in the corner you can do st.mp, st.mk>hk>close v-skill, lp dp.

Amost same concept but from a jump attack. During V-Trigger when you land a jump attack you can hitconfirm the jump attack and do cr.hp xx qcf+mk to maximize the damage but it’s hard to do tbh, and if it’s blocked and you fucked up you lose pressure. You want to start with st.mp after a jump attack unless you know for a fact the jump atatck will hit, then ofcourse you go into cr/st.hp.

j.mk/j.hp st.mp xx qcf+mk, cr.mp xx bf+hp/dp+hp

if the jump attack connects you do st.mp xx qcf+mk, cr.mp xx bf+mp/d[+hp

if the jump attack is blocked you do st.mp, st.mk. It’s hard to optimize here because if the jump attack is blocked, but st.mp hits then you woud want to do another st.mp for optmal damage, however if st.mp is blocked you would want to do st.mk for the frametrap(on counterhit you can link cr.mk from st.mk and it still reaches, this doesn’t work with st.mp or cr.mp). So in this situation you want to do st.mp, st.mk regardless if the st.mp would hit or not. If a jump attack is blocked near the corner, but the st.mp hits, which you would follow into st.mk, you can go into Necalli his Target Ccombo on reaction easily.

A lot of this stuff is ofcourse known, but i see a lot of Necalli players, even the top players never going for this stuff(admittedly i didn’t either(not that im a top player lol), but i’m going to change that!) All these little things wil add up over time during a match, it can be te difference between killing an opponent and having to fight for another hit. Ofcourse this stuff only works if the opponent is pressing buttons during pressure, you also can’t keep flowcharting with this though, you’ll just be predictable. But if you happen to catch people pressing buttons, might aswell optimize it hard.

*st.mp, st.mk whiffs on standing and blocking characters, however holding forward after st.mp lets you get in range, on hit it’ll reach without a problem.
**You can also forgo the st.mk altogether and just focus on st.mp, cr.mp but on cr.mp counterhit you don’t get anything

[AudricVsFood]

WCW team tournament today, my team got 5th. Most of the path to the finals was easy and then we ran into Brentt/Julio/chrisT. I beat brentt and was one hit from beating Julio too which I am pleasantly surprised about because I don’t have much Ken experience (I do understand the theory though). After that Mike L Na (vega) swept our team, but like with Julio it was really close.

I think Ken is even, but I think Vega gives Necalli trouble. It sounds weird but I think I actually need to jump more in that matchup.

What are people doing to meaty after LP dash punch? Is there any easy setup that hits both backroll and quick getup?

Lol you ran into the Trinity? Solid players. And yeah, Vega seems pretty troublesome. Not enough for me to think it’s a 6-4, though.

I’ve been trying to optimize some common situations for Necalli regarding his combos, mainly during v-trigger, a common string Necalli players do is st.lk, st.mk, cr.mp. This is a great string but if you give up a bit of pressure then in turn you might gain a LOT of damage, talking about this string st.lk, cr.mp. During V-trigger this string is great.

Outside of v-trigger it’s mainly used as a frametrap:
st.lk(blocked), cr.mp xx qcf+mk.
On counterhit cr.mp combos into qcf+mk, if the qcf+mk trades it also allows for a nice combo. Unfortunately outside of V-Trigger this string gives up quite a bit of pressure opportunity, so it’s the tradeoff you have to make. I would stick with st.lk, st.mk, cr.mp, but if you need a comeback then this is a string which might be usefull to keep in mind.

During V-Trigger it shines though.
Before that i want to mention st.lk, st.mk, st.mp xx bf+hp won’t combo if the st.lk was a counterhit on wakeup, so you then have to do st.lk, st.mk, cr.mp xx bf+mp. You give up a bit of damage and corner carry then. It’s another small annoyance to keep in mind while playing Necalli. However with st.lk, cr.mp you don’t have to worry about that during V-Trigger.
*
st.lk, cr.mp xx qcf+mk, cr.mp xx bf+mp*
This is the reason why st.lk cr.mp is strong, during V-Trigger Necalli can combo into qcf+mk from medium punch attacks. If st.lk is blocked and cr.mp hits you can link another cr.mp during v-trigger o reaction and still finish the combo. When you cancel from a cr.mp you move forward a lot, so you will(almost) always be able to do a hp dp for the full 3 hits which does a bit more damage than st.mk, st.mp xx bf+hp. You however do get slightly worse oki and corner carry.

cr.mp, cr.mp is also a blockstring which catches 3f normals like st.mk, cr.mp, you do cr.mp, c.r, mp only after a st.lk, if you forego the st.lk just start with st.mp.

You could make the argument that the st.mk leaves you closer, however Necalli his walkspeed during vtrigger is improved and he has longer reach on his normals and cr.mp has the same frame advantage on block as st.mk, i say you can still apply the same pressure.

If you don’t start with st.lk, forget about starting with cr.mp, just start with st.mp then. St.mp does 10 more damage than st.mk, it can also cancel into bf+hp unlike cr.mp, in the corner you can do st.mp, st.mk>hk>close v-skill, lp dp.

Amost same concept but from a jump attack. During V-Trigger when you land a jump attack you can hitconfirm the jump attack and do cr.hp xx qcf+mk to maximize the damage but it’s hard to do tbh, and if it’s blocked and you fucked up you lose pressure. You want to start with st.mp after a jump attack unless you know for a fact the jump atatck will hit, then ofcourse you go into cr/st.hp.

j.mk/j.hp st.mp xx qcf+mk, cr.mp xx bf+hp/dp+hp

if the jump attack connects you do st.mp xx qcf+mk, cr.mp xx bf+mp/d[+hp

if the jump attack is blocked you do st.mp, st.mk. It’s hard to optimize here because if the jump attack is blocked, but st.mp hits then you woud want to do another st.mp for optmal damage, however if st.mp is blocked you would want to do st.mk for the frametrap(on counterhit you can link cr.mk from st.mk and it still reaches, this doesn’t work with st.mp or cr.mp). So in this situation you want to do st.mp, st.mk regardless if the st.mp would hit or not. If a jump attack is blocked near the corner, but the st.mp hits, which you would follow into st.mk, you can go into Necalli his Target Ccombo on reaction easily.

A lot of this stuff is ofcourse known, but i see a lot of Necalli players, even the top players never going for this stuff(admittedly i didn’t either(not that im a top player lol), but i’m going to change that!) All these little things wil add up over time during a match, it can be te difference between killing an opponent and having to fight for another hit. Ofcourse this stuff only works if the opponent is pressing buttons during pressure, you also can’t keep flowcharting with this though, you’ll just be predictable. But if you happen to catch people pressing buttons, might aswell optimize it hard.

*st.mp, st.mk whiffs on standing and blocking characters, however holding forward after st.mp lets you get in range, on hit it’ll reach without a problem.
**You can also forgo the st.mk altogether and just focus on st.mp, cr.mp but on cr.mp counterhit you don’t get anything

Nice post.

And I agree, even top players seem to miss out on optimization a bit too frequently, even during casuals. I was at West Coast Warzone so I got to see a bunch of Necalli players much stronger than me. I actually did pick up a few things as well, though.