Well I guess Killey must at least! I’m with you though, I don’t think he’s top.
I think Nash is a good, solid character, but I don’t believe he’s top tier material.
Don’t get me wrong, he’s on the higher side of things, especially this early on. Compared to most of the cast, Nash is pretty straight forward. He’s got good defensive options, good offensive/pressure options and has buttons for practically every situation.
But as the other characters slowly start to develop, I imagine that Nash will slowly start to fall off the radar. He will always reward good footsies and neutral in general but I see so many people getting away with random/wake up V-Trigger into full combo into match win. That shouldn’t be happening and I feel fairly safe saying that it won’t happen later on down the line.
It doesn’t help that at the moment Infiltration is just running a train on these tournaments. Infiltration makes Nash look like he’s untouchable.
Pretty much. But I will say Nash, at the very least, will be mid tier. He can cover all bases, has some of the best normals in the game (spacing and situational depending), and can hit confirm easy for damage. Yet the considered top characters at the moment all have those attributes about them, which is makes them scary by comparison to the lower characters.
After getting silver rank a week agos, I decided to switch characters for awhile to see what all the fuss was about. I do not know if anyone here spends time on secondaries, but after playing hours with Zangief, Laura, and the few with Alex–Nash and the others feels top tier by comparison right now. Whatever you think if difficult for Nash, it’s REALLY difficult for lower characters. It feels like an uphill battle against Nash. I’m now around Bronze/Super Bronze and cannot get out of that area. So I do agree he’s not top tier, but by comparison, he feels like it to many.
As for Alex, so long as you don’t just stick to spamming Booms, you can out footies and out poke him. A lot of stuff is unsafe for him, so you can pressure him pretty easily. His EX-moves doesn’t have armor (and if it does like elbow, it works like half the time), you can stuff his EX-Knee/Headbutt, his grabs have 6-frames of start up so you can beat him with normals, and most of his normals are slow start ups.
Alex’s most reliable options ATM are his st.LP, st.MP (which is possibly one of the best normals in the game),f.HP (slow start up, but leaves Alex with +3 on block for frame traps), j.MK, c.MP, and Chops have surprisingly good priority and hitboxes against opponents.
I can see where he’s considered Zangief tier because he is 50/50 and he really has to use mind games and all his options in order to make him work.
My reasoning for placing Nash as a top tier character were covered in the podcast. It actually has very little to do with Infiltration but he does support the argument quite well despite him being a talented player and probably capable of the same with a similarly strong character. Our philosophy when creating the tier list is that the game is heavily centered around neutral game and burst offense. If a character has a strong neutral game they’re usually higher on the tier list. I think the only 2 characters I would reconsider a significant tier placement would be Cammy and Bison, atm. There’s a few characters that can shift around once more information is obtained but for the most part I can standby the rest of our decisions.
Nash has the ability to constantly change gears between zoning, mid range, and rush down at the drop of a hat. The majority of the cast can’t do that at all and only shift between two of those aspects after certain situations ie. Ken going from mid range to rush down when he gets you in the corner. Nash is capable of switching between all three whenever he wants when he has real estate to work with, which he usually will have given his tool set. You can argue he has bad defensive options but he also has strong tools to just escape the corner with V-Reversal and V-Trigger. He doesn’t even need to activate V-Trigger raw; he can wait and normal cancel into it, which causes a side swap, and that in itself is a powerful tool. It doesn’t actually matter if the raw activation into an attack is blocked because he just wants to escape the corner at that point. Not many people can easily side swap without some sort of risk. I’m not saying V-Trigger/V-Reversal don’t have their own risks but they’re far less risky options vs what other characters have to work with.
The majority of counter arguments to our reasoning’s are people who use X character and they’re having problems winning in general ie. Can’t reach Gold from Silver in ranked. That’s not even close to being a good argument for why a character is bad, and is extremely biased.
@LiangHuBBB You mention that Nash has a lot of bad match ups. Which characters do you think are bad match ups for Nash and why? I’m not singling you out in this regards but I’ve had people try to counter argue points by saying I can’t beat X char with this char, therefore, this is bad match up and my char is bad. That’s not necessarily an indication of a match up being bad, since it could be just a player having an issue against X character. I’m not saying this is your mentality but I just want to see what people think are bad match ups for Nash.
Personally, I think the only match ups that give Nash any sort of trouble is Chun-Li, Necalli w/V-Trigger, and maybe Vega. I feel he either slightly beats or goes even vs the rest of the cast. I know a lot of people get frustrated over the R.Mika match up but I never consider that a bad match up because of her mix up game. I feel the entire cast struggles vs her mix up game, even with a reversal. I feel that a reversal doesn’t completely deter R.Mika’s mix ups and there’s some a match of Tokido vs Fuudo during a Daigo stream that I feel supports my argument. During this stream, Fuudo goes for a Nadesico mix up and Tokido reversals; however, he gets hit by Nadesico and then Fuudo quick rises, converts off of the stray hit, and still puts Tokido into a mix up. It’s very specific scenario but because she has the ability to render the reversal useless, in some cases, it doesn’t really matter whether you have a reversal or not. It’s an extra layer of mind games the Mika player has to take into consideration and that’s pretty good but it doesn’t mean that it’s a free escape.
Overall, I find the balancing to SFV is really good, which is why the tier list only ranged as high as A+ and as low as B- so it’s super compressed.
^ Vega, Chun, Necalli, Mika, Laura, Sim and Ken
not every bad match up means 7/3 some of these are 5.5/4.5
in a few months Nash will move down on the tier list
basically the same characters Nuckledu & Dieminion are stuggling to play vs from time to time
Edit: NM Infiltration he beats @ll anyway
Why Ken? I can sort of see why the other characters (don’t necessarily agree with Mika and Laura) but Ken strikes me as the odd one.
^
as long as you can keep ken out it’s 6/4 in Nash’s favor, once Ken gets in it’s like 6/4 in Ken’s favor
it’s hard to explain sometimes, but when I play specific MUs I get a feeling for how good my character is in some specific situations vs other characters
I feel this MU is slightly in Ken’s favor, it could be almost even, maybe we will see in a few months when ppl come up with more tech
been playing Nash vs some high lvl platinum Ken players quite often, there are only a few legit platinum kens in SF5 atm 3 of them are ryan hart and Spiderz, another one is JT_Aktropos or sth like that
and the MU up is rly hard for nash once Ken gets in. Ive been playing Ken as well since the second beta and never rly had much trouble to beat any nash players
he has the better tools to AA nash - cr.HP is gdlk and of course his mp.SRK, Ken can shut down Nash’s VT almost every single time and he has better tools to approach vs nash compared to mika
same goes for nuckledu sometimes he beats good ken players but sometimes he gets completely beaten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WMZYaE7D6U
Im working on a Nash MU vid atm which is very long in which Im trying to cover some stuff per vid. Im not rly good at explaining things, Im better at playing and showing things per gameplay situations
Haven’t read through the thread so forgive if this is known, but you can get a midscreen frame trap into CC.st.hp xx hp boom, f+hp, air v trigger behind, j.hp, cr.hp, st.mp xx mk scyth xx super, or whatever you want. This does over 500.
In the corner you can also employ the same frame trap, link a step kick after the boom then ground v trigger into cr.hp, etc. Also over 500 damage if you cancel into super.
This makes it easier to hit confirm into a decent CC combo if you intended on using your v trigger bar anyway.
Any meaty’s against no tech for all TA’s and SS’s?
Yep, I think it works best coming out of a blocked cr.HP. The cr.HP gives you the push back you want in order for f.HP to link. For characters with a three frame attack, you’ll want to have cr.HP connect on its second active frame.
Ive played vs a rly patient ryu player today which made me rethink whether this MU does favor nash or ryu
a ryu who is only walking forward and who mainly jumps in on reactions vs SBs + mainly jumps in with well timed air tatsus plus once cornered you => frame traps, shimmies and mixing it up with throws, neutral jumps and st.mp or empty jumps while pressuring you with cr.lp is rly difficult to beat
I had to adapt first vs this player in order to keep up.
12 of these replays are still on my CFN battle lounge, if anyone is interested.
Nash is rly solid and what’s more important rly fun to play in SFV, but like I stated above
I got a feeling 3-4 months from now Nash will move down quite a bit on the tier list
If anyone is bored feel free to watch me stream a few matches. Trying to prepare my nash for a big Houston tournament this coming weekend. 
how many of you guys are gonna main, secondary guile once he gets added?
Im gonna main him no matter what tier and secondary nash while keep playing ryu and ken like Ive always done since the first and sec beta
Guile looks horrible, so I can’t see me changing.
I’m going to mess around with Guile in training mode, but I’m not planning on switching.
#PutGuyinSFV
I’ll be maining Guile. Miss the charges
Plus I tend to play Nash like Guile which doesnt really work.
I wanted a defensive zoner in Nash and I kinda feel you need to go in with him
I hope to god Guiles booms do more damage on chip then Nash’s
I’ll be playing Nash until the King returns.
Agreed. Guy was also my main in SFIV.
In fact. I’m a bored and desperate man. So I’ve been working on this on and off. It’s just a fantasy “what-if” idea, but… You might get a kick out of it:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D7C9tGCYSS9fqQ1I_3ZjYRLr93JNG-t1Aa7v0cf393I/edit?usp=sharing
It’s still very much a WIP. Lots of notes, juggle data, active / hitstun / blockstun frames left and nothing is final, and the V-system ideas are not set in stone (but I do like the idea, it’s basically unlocking Omega Guy tools during VT install, I think it would actually be very fitting for SFV’s gameplay design, and Omega Guy is AMAZING if you haven’ played that yet. By far the best and most fun version of Guy in any SF game, imo.)
Drop me some PMs if you got any ideas or changes on that sheet. I am open to critiques but I am trying to keep it in a balanced perspective of SFV design.
The inspiration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvsOP7q8aE (the idea is that a lot of the new stuff to Omega would be possible during VT Install / V-skill, in general behind his V-System tools, without VT he would play similarly (but not 100% the same) to USF4 Guy.)
EDIT: Sorry, this post feels like a Guy thread. Excuse my Guy enthusiasm.
I went over to the dark side and have been playing Mika for about 95% of my matches for a month or so. I haven’t abandoned Nash, but if I like Guile more than him, I just might.