When you perform a meaty you are merely bypassing X number of frames remaining in the move.
Example:
If you have a move like nash’s crHP it hits first from (9F startup 2F active 17F recovery). You hit on first frame there is still 1 remaining active frame + 17F recovery to pass through before you’ve recovered from the move, after this you have your advantage values. If you hit on the last active frame you only have 17F to pass through, this means 1F more advantage.
It’s not a bug, as I explained, it works just like moves with preset recoil animations in other games. It doesn’t matter what frame it connects on you always have the same number of recovery frames regardless of what frame you hit. if you hit on the last active frame then you have the same number of frames to pass through before you’ve recovered as you do when you hit on the first active frame. The ONLY difference between this and a move like Blanka’s horiball or Rolento’s roll or honda’s headbutt is that it only applies on block. It is, however, worth noting that the preset recoils for the moves I mentioned actually have different preset recoils on block vs on hit in some cases.
It’s a very simple cancel, no different than canceling into a special move. The game has scripts that cancel into these things on block.
You keep saying that it plays the same amount of recovery frames on every active frame, which is how the game and engine fundamentally work. This is what allows moves to even be meaty in the first place, like you explained with cr. HP.
But you’re saying that st. MK, you say you still “have the same number of recovery frames regardless of what frame you hit”, so you’re describing the exact same thing as with cr. HP. This is why cr. HP can meaty in the first place. It applies the same blockstun on both its’ active frames, so if you hit it meaty you have 1 fewer frames to go through.
Are you saying that st. MK cancels straight into the recovery frames instantly when it connects on hit / block, even though it’s the first frame? Are you saying that it SKIPS the 2 remaining active frames if it hits on the first active frame? Because that’s the only way this would make sense.
If it did that, then it makes sense why it would always be +0 on block no matter if you hit it on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd active frame, since it would go straight into the recovery frames and skip the remaining active frames (if any).
I’ve never heard of grounded normals doing this, is this what you’re saying?
It only goes into the animation on block. On hit it works like a standard attack. That is why, if you pay attention, it has two totally different animations when it connects on block. It doesn’t skip the two remaining frames it goes into a totally different move, just like if you cancel a normal into a special. It’s a different move entirely.
On block - cancel into 5MK_GRD move. Any frame the move is blocked it will cancel into this move. It isn’t really “skipping” because it’s a totally different move.
Think about how when you hit an attack and cancel it into a special, even if you hit the attack meaty the attack can’t cancel and combo to a slower attack. Even if you hit sMP on the last active frame it still wont combo to LP Tragedy because it’s a cancel.
You have different amount of frames to pass through on crHP depending on when it hits, just like standard moves. Frame advantage based on hitstun/blockstun minus number of remaining frames in the move.
With sMK(5MK) automatically cancels into a totally different move when it is blocked. This move is called 5MK_GRD (sMK Guard). This ONLY happens when the attack is blocked. On hit the attack functions just like standard attack, hitstun minus number of remaining frames. On block it TECHNICALLY follows this same rule, but the remaining frames always is the same amount. You ALWAYS have 17F remaining frames in the move regardless of what frame you hit on, because 5MK_GRD is 17frames long.
I don’t believe there was any normal moves in previous street fighter games that functioned like this, that I can think of, there was, however, some moves that skipped frames on both hit and block.
There are a bunch of normal attacks that function just Nash’s sMK in SFV. Actually Nash himself has 2 others. sHP can never be better than -5F on block, sMP can’t be better than 0F on block. Ryu’s crHK is always -11 on block.
O’ yeah, and fun fact: Despite what you thought, there actually IS instances of a move having different hit/blockstun on different frames. Decapre’s overhead in USF4 functioned this way.
1st active frame was 15F blockstun, 2nd was 14f, 3rd was 13f. The move overall was funky as hell, I had to write up a huge think in the notes for the move when I did the wiki
Yeah, that’s what I meant. Sorry, didn’t make myself clear enough.
Ok, that makes sense. I never actually thought of that. I know quite a lot of normals in SFV do this, they play out different animations on block. And that actually makes perfect sense now that you mention it. They always play a different animation on block as soon as it connects. You’re right, it makes perfect sense that they cannot gain any frame advantage from being meatied since on block they cancel into a different recovery animation that technically isn’t the same move anymore.
Going through boxdox, a lot of moves seem to do this. I just didn’t think that the different animations on block would actually change the move this much. I thought the animations on block, when I first saw them in the first SFV teasers we had, was just to make it visually easier for the players to confirm if the move was blocked so they could punish or not. I thought it was just a cool new visual detail for that “next-gen” of SF. Had no idea it actually affected the gameplay mechanics on this level.
Definitely no moves that do the whole different animation cancel, at least not that I remember any in particular. Which quite a lot do in SFV. So it makes sense how this is suddenly coming to light to players like me. I’m pretty sure very few players are actually aware that those block animations actually have this effect on the move when attempting to meaty them on block.
Yep. And R. Mika’s st. MP also has the same notes in the boxdox, meaning it has a set animation on block, meaning it can’t ever be anything but -2 on block. For @Heavy_Mental post above us.
Wow, that’s… Incredibly funky indeed. Never knew that. Ultra SF4 had a ton of weird quirks and also a lot of new bugs and issues that came with it. I knew of a lot of the stupid hitbox quirks of SF4 and the new ones in USF4, but I never knew this about Decapre. Strange that this only occurs with her Overhead. Seeing as she is one of the last characters to ever be added to SF4. Perhaps they were experimenting with a new mechanic idea by doing this? Kind of like how in Omega Mode they were experimenting a lot of new stuff, and some of it carried over into SFV.
Well, in any case, thanks for educating me on this detail. I’m mostly a tech guy myself, so this sort of information is invaluable to me. This new mechanic in SFV is definitely very neat. However it makes me question some of the moves they chose to give this function to.
I get the idea of giving sweeps this, since most sweeps are meant to be very risky on block. However I don’t see why they would give this to Nash’s st. MK… It’s not like the move would be overpowered if it could be +2 on block a single time within a blockstring.
Makes me wonder if Capcom themselves originally planned it to nerf the meaty options of those moves by giving them those animation cancels on block, or if they were just trying to make the gameplay and movements look more realistic and visually impressive…
I’ll be paying more attention to this in the future. I’m a bit sad st. MK has this, as essentially this mechanic actually nerfs moves that have this animation cancel on block.
Trust me, there were a TON of weird quirks for characters beyond hitboxes. I noted most of them when I did a huge overhaul on the USF4 wiki. I’m supposed to be doing something similar for SFV wiki but I just haven’t had much interest in SFV, especially since overwatch dropped, lol.
Here is another one for Decapre
Her air teleport - dive kick had different frame advantage based on which teleport version you used. Medium scramble - divekick had 3F less advantage on hit than Heavy Scramble - dive kick. With EX it worked the same way for L+H vs M+H. However, where things get funky, they all have the same frame advantage on COUNTERHIT. So a Medium Scramble- dive kick has same frame advantage on counterhit as a heavy scramble - dive kick, but on regular hit the medium scramble has 3F less advantage.
Poison has specific frames her light attacks can be chain canceled, some frames it doesn’t work. This makes some of her combos harder than they should be. Then there is the issue that the first frame of Poison’s crHP doesn’t actually cancel, it waits until the NEXT frame before the move cancels. This means that you can actually get a different attack to combo on a buffer if you hit meaty. This also appears on Juri’s crHP, here is where things get SUPER weird with her crHP though, the issue where it delays the cancel appears during Juri’s FSE as well EXCEPT if you chain her clsHK into crHP. If you do that one specific chain during FSE the move has a totally different cancel timing than normal.
Cody’s knife attacks actually have a close / far version even though they are functionally identical and use same animation. In Ultra they gave him a pretty gimmicky buff in that all of his knife normals gained 3 juggle potential and caused air resets. However, the 2nd hit of his sMP with knife does not have juggle potential if you are in close range.
Poison’s Ultra 2 gives the opponent zero super meter when it hits. Elena’s U1 also used to grant the opponent no super meter on hit.
The game has all sorts of dumb shit.
BTW, the offset cancel timing thing exists in SFV but now it’s intentional. So even though moves have the same hitstun, some moves can actually combo to special moves when done meaty that they can’t when done normal. If you look at Laura’s sLK you’ll see it has 1F more hitstun than her other lights, logically it should combo to her MP Elbow strike because of this. However if you hit on the first frame and cancel the attack it waits 1F THEN cancels into a special/CA/ect. This delay only occurs if you hit on the FIRST active frame. If you hit meaty then canceling to MP Elbow WILL combo because doesn’t cause the 1F delay.
Isn’t this game wonderfully quirky? I just love how it constantly breaks it’s own rules and forces you to memorize an insane amount of individual slightly offset aspects of moves.
Hehe, I knew about the Poison and Cody ones. But these Decapre ones are pretty whack.
Also, the “building zero meter” is pretty common among the cast. Quite a few moves have missing / weird calculations behind super meter building.
Know what I hated the most about SFIV though? The way they handled the hurtboxes. Why the hell did they think it was a good idea to do a blend of the ‘OG’ square-like boxes (like we have in SFV and most 2d fighters in general), with model-tied hurtboxes?
Like, I understand the appeal of model-tied hurtboxes, but who the hell thought it was a good idea to start a move off with squares, then during recovery suddenly instantly the whole move shifts into model-tied, or at least, that’s what you’d think right? WRONG, the whole game was completely inconsistent with even applying this damn rule for the entire cast and moves. Seemingly at complete fucking random some characters have squares here, while the other has model-tied there, etc etc.
Classic example: Look at Ryu st. jab compared to Akuma st. jab. hurtboxes / hitboxes.
???
Wtf was capcom thinking with that. Especially as a Guy main the hugely inconsistent hurtboxes across the entire cast in SF4 was incredibly irritating at times and made a lot of things whiff that shouldn’t be and only serves to frustrate the gameplay.
I used to have pictures of thousands of more examples of this (lost them to old HDD crash), heck, Decapre.com’s hitbox videos can easily showcase all of these.
Another example, after Elena did EX Scratch Wheel (EX DP), and Guy blocks it, punsh time:
>Walk in and do: cl. st. MP > TC xx whatever you want
>Dash in and do: cl. st MP –Nope!, cl. st. MP doesn’t come out, instead the move / game recognizes you as being far away and not close, far. st. MP comes out instead, denying the punish combo you did by walking in instead. I don’t even.
EDIT P.S. - I mained Guy mostly so always noticed how many weird quirks Hozanto had. Can you actually confirm for me what the hell was going with the buffering during / after Hozanto? It always felt like Hozanto didn’t take into factor buffers you did during the animation, I even have memories of reading about this somewhere on SRK before on a huge forum post about all reported unfixed bugs / quirks in SFIV.
EDIT 2: Ok this is now way inappropriate for this thread, we should probably continue our discussion in PM if you want to talk more about quirky shit like this, haha.
RLBS: “TL;DR: Meaty cr.HP and f.HK alternatives to safe jumps after crush counter sweep, Moonsault Slashes (meterless) gain additional frame of advantage on crouching opponents, and meaty cr.LK after EX Tragedy Assault (Rashid’s EX Spinning Mixer hits on the 8th frame).”
How much frame advantage does hk.SS xx f.vtrigger > nj.hk > f.lk have? I can’t get clear frame data on this for I don’t know what reason. Sometimes meaty s.hk > jab and meaty f.lk > jab combo which would make it +12, but like 9 out of 10 times I don’t seem to get it although I barely miss other combos.
I’m just a beginner and labbing a little bit in trainings mode. Sorry if the answer is simple…
Edit: Afaik the distance between Nash and X after the f.vtrigger is set so the f.lk always hits the same so it should always give you the same frame advantage, shouldn’t it?
Can Nash do v-triggrr combos from j.hk into cr.hk or am I thinking of something from the beta? I’ve been trying it in the training room but no success. Mainly because it’s the same as a lk.sscythe ender but with better damage and stun.
you cant do anything after the cr.hk into vtrigger. when thats it what you mean.
on block? when he is not safe…i dont own him, i would guess lp into ss.
i managed to grab him out of the air a few times but i am not sure if that works on all versions and at all points of him doing the move. maybe i got him early when it was not active?!
