This is off topic but it looks like he is break dancing lol.
Then there’s no point in making the change on wake up. It will put every character that relies on EX moves for their reversals at a disadvantage. They should rather just shorten the reversal window out of hit/block stun, like I suggested.
if it’s just during hit/block stun then yeah, i think most people would be ok with that and it would still keep something very signature to the sf4 series intact that isn’t overly annoying. i must have missed your post suggesting that.
EDIT
oops. i see what i did there. either way a 3f reversal window for characters who depend on EX reversals isn’t very hard at all but i like your way better since it keeps some of the old way there so it still feels like sf4.
But it also has the benefit of making the game more interesting. Right now, it’s almost flowchart to go into vortex setups when you knock someone down, it works but it does get a bit predictable. More options, even if it would make the game less balanced, would make the wakeup game a bit more dynamic. IMO, making the game more interesting and dynamic is more important than overall balance.
THIS.
No nerfs for top tiers, but buff everyone else.
Also, I like the fact that those who advocate for smaller reversal windows are mainly non SF4 players. I understand making window reversal smaller would make the game more interesting and apealing for you, because it would be more similar to your favourite game, but please understand, the majority of us - those who like and play this game - like it this way. The same way 3s players grew acustomed with 3s balance and wouldn’t want a rebalance for that game.
I think if an update comes - it shouldn’t alter the game radically - just buff non vortex characters so the game beomces less dominant by vortexes, and i’m happy with it.
Also - did I read well ? someone just asked for nerfs for Dhalsim and Zangief ? :shake:
I can’t believe this. I really hope capcom will be selective when gathering input.
If you’re not in Japan your input doesn’t count. The arcade machines had feedback forms when they were Alpha and Beta testing ver 2012
Looking over wanted changes in these forums, several buffs were ignored and other useless crap was given to characters.
If nerfing the viability of DPs is going to make vortex characters too strong then either vortexes should be nerfed or non-vortex-based characters should receive buffs to counteract them. Myself, I would prefer SF to revert back to a more fundamentals-based gameplay akin to SFII but I don’t know how that would sit with everyone else.
I will continue to say that I think that vortex characters shouldn’t remain in an advantageous situation if you manage to defend against their mixups. Reduce the frame advantage on block for stuff like Ibuki’s Kumasi and Cammy’s dive kicks.
this coming from an abel?
Maybe he played Claw in ST
What does that have to do with what I’m saying? Heh. Obviously I could stand to see Abel’s vortex get nerfed if* I just said* that I prefer fundamentals.
So what do we do about Makoto’s Ultra 2?
I don’t see why Sagat and Dhalsim should lose all projectiles and slow moves because they successfully kept her out for 40 seconds. I do see the logic in letting Cammy make me block a dive kick and a couple of frame traps if she successfully knocks me down though (not so much with 950 health/anti-fireballs out the ass/24 hour active DP/ex dive kick but I think you get what point I’m trying to make)
It might be considered peculiar that a player that favors fundamental based gameplay would gravitate towards Abel, I think is his point.
I decided to try someone new for SSFIV. The old characters get boring after 15 years.
I might agree if everything (literally) Cammy has didn’t lead to her retarded pressure game. Dhalsim loses hard to Makoto even before she has U2 stocked anyway, it’s more like an extra kick in the balls lol.
A character with 2 guns. You heard it here first. 2 guns.
Seriously what is with Makoto and hitting people in the balls?
I get the feeling that the Makoto / Ibuki relationship is more than a “friendly rivalry” ;3
You can’t really buff characters to deal with vortex pressure. You can only change the way the game fundamentally works and that basically means playing a different game. In general you’re basically asking Capcom to help you because you fucked up on your spacing. That’s not really what being a good fighting game player is about. You generally get more chance to survive vortexes in this game than the pressure in most any other Capcom fighter any way. Especially with the lower damage values and fixed scaling on dizzies. In general the pressure in this game is not as oppressive as other fighters.
If you’re talking about Super Turbo SF2…ST’s fundamentals are overrated any way. It’s not this uber duber fundamental game that everyone makes it out to be. You can only get so fundamental when throws are one frame start up and most normals have frame advantage on block or hit etc.
ST’s fundamentals more so revolves around the fact that the walk speeds and normals are faster so you can enforce fundamentals more specifically and at a faster rate than in say SFIV with the slower walk speeds and bigger stages. The cheap stuff like frame 0 throws (especially the mashable ones that can’t be teched) force emphasis on fundamentals simply because you will be put in dirty…not very fundamental shit if you don’t have your spacing perfect. In ST being put in stupid shit is your punishment for not keeping your spacing tight. That’s kinda why I’ve really liked playing UMVC3 a lot lately because it’s pretty much an exaggerated version of that shit. If your spacing and awareness of positions and pressure isn’t really tight…you pay the price. In SFIV because of the slower walk speeds, lower damage and generally easily breakable pressure minus hard knockdown vortex situations you get more time to make mistakes and generally get more chances to play fundamentally. Although the difference in ST is the characters generally have better walk speed and tools to enforce those fundamentals to begin with.
ST is pretty much all about getting fucked up for losing spacing. Hyoubal Balrog/Claw can kill you faster and from more areas of the screen than most of the vortex stuff in SFIV. Especially with the damage differences and the lack of damage scaling if you get dizzy. In this matchup, Tokido is fighting a character that basically has no reversal without super in a game with really tight block strings and throws. Yoy guys complain about wake up shit in SFIV when at least you have invincible backdashes, techable throws, that have slower start up, about 5 frames to reverse and just other general shit. Yeah it can be option selected…but that’s still better than ST.
Add Hyoubal on top of that and you’re forced to really enforce
spacing to not die extremely quickly.
The Vega/Dic player once he loses positioning constantly has to go for really clutch shit like throwing out slower, spacing specific normals like c.HP to get a chance to AA the Hyoubal and get breathing room for a split second.
[media=youtube]HJ0SR6Y9GHM[/media]
Nerfing vortex pressure is a pretty stupid idea…because by watching this video it’s pretty certain that this type of pressure is standard in most older fighting games. The idea is you get fucked up when you give up positioning. These people kept their footsies tight because of the DANGER revolved around not keeping them tight. Not the game mechanics themselves easing their ability to get back up during pressure situations.
The better idea would be to nerf the hard knockdown situations that set up those vortexes to begin with…but that would probably make the game even more dry with not many other ways to amount strong pressure.
The bigger problem with the vortex stuff in SFIV is that there are characters that can end every combo they do in a hard knockdown and their throws also cause hard knockdowns. Which makes the gameplay have rather dry transitions between really weak block string/frame trap games and hard knockdown vortex situations once somebody gets comboed or thrown. Essentially too many offensive confirmations result in free setups for it. This was obviously done on purpose because the developers wanted to change the gameplay so that block strings and throws are easier to escape. Meaning they needed a way to allow you to actually start offense consistently and that’s where the hard knockdown concept was thrown in. If nothing caused hard knockdown there’d be not much offensively to actually do in this game.
At least in ST there are situations where you are given very limited time to start up a vortex situation. In SFIV throws and sweeps (and some other special moves) always cause hard knockdown so you a lot of the things you land can put people in these states. Another issue is that only some of these characters can access that. SFIV Guile doesn’t get a lot of chances or generally have the tools to put you in a scary vortex…and ST Guile’s wake up pressure is arguably scarier. Even his tick grab stuff is scarier and he can generally enforce offense despite being based around zoning more effectively.
In ST there is always some way for every character to put you in a “vortex/high pressure mix up” whether it revolves around safe jump wake up games or not. In SFIV the safe jump vortex is pretty much required to keep up consistent pressure that will end the round quickly and force the opponent to pay for their mistakes quickly.
Which is actually more interesting than tick throw/wall-dive loops in ST. What makes that kind of pressure bearable in ST is that the round is over pretty quickly if the opponent doesn’t guess right and/or hit that 1f reversal. Also, if everyone in ST had strong tick throw or wall dive loops the game would suck IMO. That’s how I feel about so many chars in SSFIV now having vortex-like mixups. It was cool when Gouki could do it. It added some diversity to the game. Now it just makes many matchups seem monotonous. Another way that this game differs from ST is that there are so many chars that just don’t care about typical SF fundamentals. Anyone who can alter their airborne trajectory can force you to guess just by jumping. Anyone with a teleport doesn’t care about your pressure. Zoning is not as strong because of Focus Attacks, armoured moves and dashing etc. These tools “break” SF fundamentals. Which is all bearable, but when you add vortex setups it starts getting a bit ridiculous.
I think that every character should have something scary in their arsenal. I don’t think that it should be loopable oki.
Well yeah that’s another reason why a lot of the older fighters were more interesting to play. The cheap stuff killed you quicker and forced you to be on your toes more and clutch things out. Dying more quickly doesn’t really make the pressure more interesting I would say…but it definitely forces the game to transition faster.
Yeah the issue with SFIV is a combination of things in the neutral and the vortex that are just extremely boring and don’t really allow you to force people into anything meaningful very often. Yeah there are characters that can do things to get around basic zoning pretty easily…but they usually have some other issue like shitty normals to compensate. At the highest level of play that probably isn’t enough of a compensation…but again if the block strings and pressure were tighter then more characters would be able to pressure them back and force them to play more defensively.
The main reason why the less fundamental characters can take the risk to spin around the more fundamental characters is because the pressure is so weak and the damage is so low in most combo situations that there isn’t a lot of risk for them. In ST even though Balrog/Claw could fly around like Viper all day…all it took was one throw, j.MP or cross up j.MK to turn things around or kill Claw.
The fundamental characters in this game don’t have enough of their own cheap shit…so the vortex characters end up getting too much reward when they would be more balanced if everyone had more access to the few situations where you can create high damage and pressure to the opponent. Which is pretty much standard fare in a game like ST where there aren’t health values, tighter throws and block strings and everyone can amount high damage regardless of their play style.
It’s just even with all of that those vortex characters can lose out because minus Akuma the majority of them just don’t have as strong of normals or fundamentals as the other types. Which makes the majority of the vortex characters very dry to play also since you know you regularly can’t challenge their normals and usually just have to bypass them until you get in. It’s just very dry all around really.
As far as the stuff you mentioned that “breaks” fundamentals…focus attack is the only one that gets close to that IMO. Focus attack allows you to basically dash through fireballs which is worse than parrying in SF3. When you parry in SF3 you’re forced to sit in place or do a special move. Focus gives you a parry that you can also move during which allows you to bypass a non EX projectile more easily than in SF3 even. You can’t air focus…but that’s not really needed when you’re just looking to bypass a regular fireball one time and get in.** In SFIV there’s also plenty of moves that are projectile invincible also.**
Armored attacks…they can be an issue but you can usually throw people out of those type of attacks or they generally aren’t very good. If you’re talked about the stuff like Zangief’s EX RGB or Fuerte’s EX quesadilla (which is very unsafe on block).
Dashing…that doesn’t really break fundamentals much either. There are plenty of moves in ST that are effectively dashes they just have attacks coming out of them since they are special moves. The walk speeds for the characters with the stronger dashes are usually slow enough to compensate and it’s not like you can block during those dashes.
If you combine those issues with vortex…yeah it’s harder to play the standard zoning games of other SF games…but it’s matchup specific. I wouldn’t say it all of a sudden forces you out of playing fundamentally. You still see top players like Infiltration use fundamentals to beat out top Fuerte players and just wait for the situations where they can enact their fundamentals.
[media=youtube]Q6gN8fnDjeE[/media]
[media=youtube]FxiebJTNIJ4[/media]
In these matches with Infiltration vs. other vortex characters…I wouldn’t say fundamentals are lost. They are just done a bit differently. The bigger issue is how you can only really make people pay big for their mistakes via the vortexes. Whereas in ST everything from the block strings, the heavy chip and damage from projectiles, meaty wake up situations (forcing normals on their wake up and not just jump ins), can force bad situations. In ST everything does more damage and pressure is tighter so making those mistakes hurts you more against any character type. Not just the ones that tag you with a hard knockdown.
Correct “spacing” oriented decisions don’t net you much damage unless they amount to a hard knockdown and also amount to a safe jump OS. ** The other basic pressure games that Guile and Dictator can enact in ST don’t amount to much in SFIV and that’s what truly limits things.**