It’s a shame that X-23/Doom/Ammy supposedly can’t be optimal for Double Dirt nap. Why is her Unblockable not as viable with Ammy like it is with Firebrand?
It’s workable, There are a fair amount of assists that aren’t true meaties but can still be used. You have to do either a meaty TA L that clips the bottom of their legs, a well timed MF H j.H/S, or properly spaced/timed j.h/s to blockstun them down into an assist with a long enough blockstun. If you’re too high then you’re free to get XF thrown, tho you can do a bit of an XF bait with j.H (wait for XF) dfH OS but when I was trying to use that I was having issues with throw hitboxes not working in my favor.
You can do a really solid incoming meaty/OS chain similar to SumBrownKid’s wolvie setups with ammy where you get a meaty > throw OS/guardbreak > assist lockdown > fuzzy/dirt nap, but it’s nowhere near as braindead as wovlies since he gets to start it off his j.H (or whatever button he has where he’s jabbing up/forward from his body) and his throw takes so long that his assists will refresh on whiff where X23 has to time a safe/meaty TA. Full transcription would be something like.
Meaty TA L, land, dash j.dfH OS + Assist xx TA L > crossup/mf H > fuzzy/dirt nap
I wouldn’t play it because I’m absolute garbage with ammy and always have been (not from a lack of trying.) Plus I prefer to take as many variables out of the equation as possible to make it as match practical as it can be. Past that, I feel like X23 + PB and CS is slightly redundant as far as coverage and you can’t use missiles to pick up after a dirt nap reliably.
Plus I think Doom/Dante is still a solid shell with great 2-button tech, a stupidly strong THC ender, lots of hard tag synergy from dante > doom, good zone control and great incoming. Aside from the fact that CS gives better extensions I like JS as the better assist (They both scale everything to shit anyways.) Dante is a pretty good streamroll anchor (similar to ammy), too. I think they’re pretty comparable.
Yeah, I was just wondering really. Doom/Dante is the new up and coming shell, but I would have thought at least one person would try and abuse Doom/Ammy with Laura.
Thanks for the info.
I’m pretty sure there were 1 or 2 X23/Doom/Ammy players in vanilla and the start of ult.
I think felax played X23/Doom/Ammy at the start of ult, I don’t remember.
Actually, I haven’t played this game in months. I’m starting to get like Ryuga that in being the game really doesn’t interest me anymore, but I like X23 and the discussions in making her work. Thing is, when I do start playing again I know I’m gonna be rusty as fuck with her and I’m even considering picking up another main when I play again.
It’s viable, you just have to work a bit more. Like Merkyl pointed out hitting someone with a Meaty Talon to make them fall into Cold Star on incoming is VERY reliable, just not a guarantee. Still though, I don’t think I’ve ever had it fail me. Maybe once or twice Magneto’s been able to airdash out, but I can’t be certain. I’m sure if I hit the lab and messed with the timing I could find a way to make it tighter.
X-23 with Doom/Ammy is silly. I’ve been playing it for about four months now and I’d feel like a broken record if I went on again about how good it is, but you can check a few pages back to see my write-ups. To me it’s her optimal team. The only hurdles are learning how to make Ammy work as an anchor and learning how to do Doom infinites that take long enough to kill to grant you 5 bars since his regular ones are too fast. Everything else just sort of works itself out, and as long as Doom and Ammy have two meters there are no bad matchups.
Class, which infinites are you using to build meter with doom? I’ve been worried about that being an issue since he does way too much damage.
I just do his midscreen infinite in the corner, so off a down exchange I’d do something like
Exchange -> ADDF -> Fly -> j.m -> j.m -> ADD -> j.m -> j.h -> Falling j.l -> Rejump j.l ->j.l -> j.m -> j.m -> j.fh -> ADF -> j.l -> j.m -> L Plasma Beam -> Falling j.l -> Rejump j.l -> Repeat indefinitely.
I think if I mess around with using mostly j.ls like MarlinPie’s old combos, and then relaunch with the buttergun instead of Plasma Beam, I can probably make it more meter-reliable. It’s sort of uncharted territory since X-23 players are the only ones who would ever want an infinite to last longer. Everyone else only knows how to make them shorter.
Speaking of Cold Star, is there a way to get to reliably relaunch after long loops? For me, the problem is sometimes, I have to delay the assist against some chars and call it early versus others, but the timing randomly fluctuates.
Class, I was looking through my dante and doom tech vids last night. I don’t know if doom infinites with more j.Ls would make that much of a difference. That shit still does 11k fully scaled… I swear that man doesn’t know the meaning of the word minimum damage scaling…If I’m right, then Doom’s minimum damage scaling is 20% on both his specials and normals. (I’m not sure if those are ever seperate values, but I think they might be.)
Using the old MM>Buttergun infinite loop, ~240k damage at max scaling builds 1 meter. The new loop with beam builds 1 meter at pretty much exactly the same ~239. I assume they’re exactly the same, I just can’t get much more precise than looking at the damage and guessing when we’re at a new meter.
IIRC, meter gain is determined as a set % of the damage a move does with no scaling. I want to say when Wandles and I were looking into it, doing a combo that would do 1.2mil damage without any damage scaling would build 1 meter. Using doom as an example. @ max scaling j.M 9k/per, fH 18k, Buttergun 7k/per, PB L 4k/hit. @ no scaling j.M 45k/hit, fH 90k, Buttergun 35k/hit, PB L 20k/hit. That means 20% minimum scaling and builds 1 meter @ 1.2mil raw damage (240k max scaling)
For comparison sake, IM’s standard fly infinite builds 1 meter in ~120k damage at max scaling. (j.H 8k, j.S 9k at max scaling. @ no scaling j.H 80k j.S 90k. So 10% minimum damage scaling and builds 1 meter @ 1.2mil raw damage.)
If anyone wants to check my math, the max scaling numbers came from infinite videos, the full damage numbers came from the SRK wiki. The guide has numbers on meter gain/move if you want to check it for anyone else.
This all said, I don’t know if Doom is the optimal partner for X23/Dante when it comes to 1 TAC > 1 infinite > double dirt nap since the popular point characters tend to have less than 1mil health and you’ll never hit 5 meters unless you start off a down TAC on people with less than 960k health (technically, probably around 1.1mil or more once you account for the portion of the combo that isn’t at minimum scaling yet.)
My optimal double dirt nap scenario is getting a throw with point Vergil. Wouldn’t cha know, I’ve been getting it pretty often lately… in casuals, lol.
Best meter build infinites (aka, low damage infnites) belong to Nova, Storm, and Magneto. Easy to do, builds 5 bars every time… takes forever to kill.
It’s hard for IM to not build to 5, they only have to have 720k health to literally build 5 full meters during the infinite.
Yeah, I’ve never really thought if it like that, but it’s actually so true.
I agree that when it comes to the Double Dirtnap engine Doom isn’t the optimal partner. He’s there mostly for support and overall team strength. X-23/Doom/Ammy is sort of her jack of all trades team in my opinion, it does just about everything you want an X-23 team to do, jut not always optimally. Still I’m holding out hope that I can find a more meter-friendly infinite. I REALLY don’t want to have to TAC to Ammy and do hers.
The math on how meter gain works means you can’t get a more meter-positive TAC infinite from a character (unless you’re talking about modifying the portion before max damage scaling has kicked in.)
They always gain 1 meter/1.2mil unscaled damage, the only thing that changes is how much damage scaling the character has.
Doom scales down to 20%, so 1,200,000*.2 = 240,000
IM scales down to 10%, so 1,200,000*.2 = 120,000
That’s the limiting factor. It doesn’t matter what the actual hits are since they all gain meter at the same speed (speaking on meter/damage). If you are TACing on hit 3, then you can make it slightly more meter efficient by doing lots of heavy scaling moves, but once you’re at max scaling it doesn’t matter.
Who are my X23+bolts guys here? I was going to look into Dante/X23/Bolts since I’m getting more comfortable with Dante and see if the meter gain was there to make it worthwhile.
Just for some more verification, I’ve been running Dante/X23 with Doom Beam and Unibeam for a while and both of the post dirt nap pickups are match reliable so make sure you’re all abusing it if you have it.
Oh, I see what you’re saying now. Damn that math is depressing. I guess the team doesn’t really need to be double dirtnap viable, but it does put me in an awkward situation strategy-wise.
I ran X-23/Strange/Ammy for a long time. Bolts is a really good assist for her and helped deal with a lot of problem matchups. The only reason I ended up dropping Strange was because having him second was putting too much pressure on myself to do well with Laura and Ammy. It was too easy to get steamrolled. Putting him on anchor would fix that problem though. You’d have a great assist for two characters and Strange gets a lot more reliable with x-factor. Not to mention Dante is a boss with bolts. But if you’re looking at him for meter gain purposes I’m not sure he’s your best option unless you have a way to hard tag into him.
Didn’t Tenboss used to run X-23/Dormammu/Strange? That seemed like a strong team.
There’s Dante > Strange hard tag stuff and I’m still on the fence on whether I’m running AS or CS with X23. I think both characters would do well having an alpha counter to back them up, but the unblockables would help it be more meter positive. Even outside of the hardtag there’s still TAC > FoF loop options and the TAC-past-X23 combo for dante is reliable and corner carries full screen. I think that it might be possible to guarantee 2 dead characters from start of match without a TAC and I want to look into that for shits and giggles before I settle into Dante/X23/IM too much. I’m pretty sure all of the non-Wesker-combo stuff in the vid would translate almost 1-1 with Dante/X23/Strange.
As far as Tenboss, I think he did yeah, I think he’s running X23/Vergil/Strange atm. (Saw him beat Nemo on that stream where he was running Spidey/Spencer/Strange and all the strange play got me curious about the pairing again since FoF loops were just getting tech’d out when I was playing him originally.)
Also, I ran a few sets with X23/IM/Dante and I think that it gives X23 a super strong neutral game. Normally I can’t even touch Wolvie, but I felt like I was actually getting to set the pace for a change which was wierd and nice. Anyway, here’s some video of me getting bodied and trying to learn Dante neutral. Also a lot of Dapvip play throughout the weekend if you want to look for it. It just works out that those two pieces have my gameplay right at the start.
I would have been runnin X23/Strange/Dante a long, long time ago if I’d have found a way to relaunch (or some other, significant combo extender) using bolts. So if anyone finds one, let me know.
You should be able to juggle it if you do a midscreen BnB that goes into S and you an call assist, j.M xx L Talon Dive land S again. Because it’s bolts, you might be able to press H when you land, let the 2nd bolt hit, then S. I believe people call it “Beam Bounce”. Here’s an example.
I remember labbing it a LONG time ago, I think it’s S+Bolts, H dH Talon L, or H CS+L Talon L, I forget which, but I think it’s the first one.