With an OTG assist (I use Deadpool), you can get 600k+ combos doing the Tatsu Combo:
(MHS, j.H, Talon dive, OTG, Neck slicer, HS, j.H, Talon dive, Ankle Slice, Rage Trigger)
If you have an assist that holds them in place (Chun Li, Dormammu, Iron Man), you can use ankle slice to pick them up into the assist, and continue your combo. Timing is trickier, though.
Since I play X-23 on point, and Deadpool anchor, there’s really no point in me going for feint combos, when I know I can get the Tatsu combo 100% of the time for 95% of “optimal” damage.
doing a braindead OTG relaunch combo is actually how you get the most damage as X-23
with Wesker and Akuma
s.H c.H s.S sj.M sj.H sj.d+H xx 236L, Wesker OTG, neck slice, s.H s.S sj.M sj.H sj.d+H xx 236L, Akuma tatsu, ankle slice xx Weapon X Prime
is her strongest BnB combo. you can do more by starting with a Wesker OTG & j.S for an unblockable (does about 780k). but only if you have both your assists available. if either of them are gone for whatever reason or you used one to start a mixup, feint loops are always more damaging than one assist combos
At some point I feel all X23 players have to learn some feint loops, the tatsu OTG combo is good but there’s so many feints she can do. It just adds to her arsenal to me, you can still get around 600k off loops without the need off an assist.
Who the hell is trolling? And how was I wrong? If Marvel is to continue, then the game is going to have to be patched. As the lot of us guessed, the game is already degenerating into blankblankphoenix. Daigo, Tokido, and the rest of japan who have a shot at the money already use her. Top players are getting bodied by randoms with Jean, and rumor has it that the rest of SoCal’s top (Justin, Floe, Marn) all have her in the works for evo.
When they DO patch it, because phoenix vs phoenix will kill the game, the DHC glitch will go along with it. Do you expect Capcom to have the presence of mind to give x23 the tools needed to be a top tier character? Considering that would be an extraordinary feat of balancing, I don’t see it happening at all.
As I previously said (without pejorative language):
At some point, the DHC glitch will be patched, and the only people left on this board will those blinded by character pride. Shoutouts to Logan.
This isn’t trolling, and was more of a satirical elaboration of the post above my original.
Without DHC glitch she still has what it takes be upper mid tier. She’s crazy in xf2 and 3. She has a potent mixup. You absolutely cannot sleep on her lvl3 super. Her left/right game is quite nearly as strong as Wolverine’s, just not as easy to pull off. With execution she has one hell of a good set of normals, but you need to feint cancel everything to realize it.
Compared to the top tiers she is missing a few things. Her jump H is trash, she can only combo from one of her four throws (and it is her forward air throw, so no OS block/throw stuff) and her solo combo damage is not that great, although she can get all kinds of resets.
She’s just slept on right now because people are busy taking the easy way out.
When you take phoenix out of the equation, theres imo, basically 3 tiers, the top wesker, task, sent, wolvie (didnt name all characters in this tier) tier. the bottom, thor, hsien-ko, Cap, arthur tier, and then theres everyone else in the middle. as long as you have some intelligent synergy going into your team every character can compete. some characters take more work than others but as people get better and learn to tap into all the options of the game fully, its going to come down to reading and intelligence far more than character choice to determine who wins.
No, because you’re talking individually. this is marvel, and you need to consider teams. Right now, there are 5 tiers:
-Phoenix team tier.
-The no team at all tier, to show how much of the metagme phoenix currently controls.
-Teams comprised of Magneto, Wekser, Akuma, Dante, Akuma, Dormammu, Taskmaster, Amy and Tron.
-Teams of other characters that do okay because people don’t know matchups. x-23 especially falls into this category. Mixups require the opponent to be put in bad situations BEFORE the mixup occurs, and any mixup is easily thwarted by pushblocking at the right time and punishing.
-Teams of any characters from the tier above it, but played by people who don’t understand how to use xfactor, pushblock, and other delicious game mechanics.
Ultimately, the only reason people lose to x-23, or Skrull, or Shehulk, etc is because people don’t understand the match up. Spencer for instance: combofiend wins a tourney. Everyone goes home and says: oh, we can block that overhead… okay. Then boom, combofiend hasn’t won anything. Not to doubt him as a player, dude’s combos and mixups are great. His team just doesn’t make any sense.
I’m a victim of my own theory. I play Laura. I love her. She’s so fun to use. The problem, is that fun=/=good. I’m a tournament player first, and foremost, and when that glitch goes away, Laura will be going away, too.
This is to assume that I haven’t already dropped her for Phoenix, like anyone with a brain.
@Sakeido: she’s slept on because her approaches are terrible. m.talon loses its hitbox 3/4 of the way through, making you open to getting destroyed by basically anything. Talon dive is punishable by back task. Neckslicer loses to back dash, hardcore. h.talon is decent with drones or tatsu assist, if you understand how to employ it, but even then, her block pressure is terrible, even at the highest level of play.
Wolverine has everything she has plus beserker charge which makes any unsafe approach completely safe. Not to mention an aerial super.
Laura need to be invincible for most of any mirage feint, for her to be ever viable for top 10. Right now, she’s lucky to make top15, and I still think that’s too high.
Also, you can’t say shit like: SHES GR8 IN XFACTOR. Who exactly ISN’T great in xfactor? Hell, Cap is great in level 2 xfactor. Doom can xfc block stun and instantly kill you. That’s not a viable argument. Logan’s Berserker Slash combos into itself. Wesker can gun you 5 times and teleport for a quick kill. Come on.
I have my own views about X-23 without the DHC glitch, which are optimistic, but it’s really late and I need to sleep. Basically, I think without the DHC glitch, X-23 players will have to take advantage of Silent Kill and X-23’s ability to generate a good amount of meter with her optimal loops in order to get Silent Kill early and be a threat combined with assists. I’ll elaborate more in the morning.(looking forward to watching Felax’s vids as well!) See ya.
X23 is still a pretty solid character compared to most of the other cast. You definitely need a lockdown assist to get the most out of her but I’m starting to realize how strong other little things like her command grab are to her gameplan. If you have a solid projectile assist like Doom Beam her command grab becomes way more viable. You can call the beam before doing the command grab and it allows you to safely throw out the command grab. If they are sitting there blocking you’ll grab them up and if they jump or try to attack you the beam will keep you safe on the recovery. Her command grab can also pass through advance guard and grab people out of it so once you get in that’s another big threat against people who mash on the advance guard all day. Her command grab is probably the scariest part of her offense and it’s generally what gets people off of block the fastest of all of her tools so it’s imperative to get it out when people are blocking too long to keep them in check. Even if you dont know everything about X23 if you’re not scaring people with her its probably because you aren’t using her command grab enough. Now that I know how to set it up once i get close people can’t really block for more than a few seconds or command grab is coming.
Yeah it’s true that her feints can be hit out of but you’re really supposed to be setting them up with assists just like how Wolverine is supposed to. Wolverine can use his without an assist but it’s easier to deal with without an assist. Her M feint travels across the screen even faster than berserker charge so when set up with a projectile assist you can easily get in and amount an offense from that point. It’s best used with an assist to stay in on advance guard and force a frame trap situation but if you’re not playing against a big projectile based team you can use it to get in with an assist. Generally though you’re supposed to either be wave dashing or using regular/TK’d M talon attacks to get in. Her wave dash is pretty much the best in the game and gets her in incredibly fast.
The main reason why Wolverine is better than X23 is that his hit boxes are just better than 23’s. He has a dive kick with an enormous hit box that ground bounces, a c.L with solid range that rapid fires and can hit under tron assist and a 4 frame s.L that takes up like half the screen. Fundamentally he’s just one of the best characters in the game period. Even with that X23 has a lot of solid normals under her belt and a lot of little extra tools to get people off of block even if you dont have an assist available. If you have an assist available there’s pretty much no reason for the person to actually block anything you’re doing for more than a few seconds. She has too many tools to open people up.
Saying her block pressure is terrible is rather ignorant of the tools the character has. You can’t really block an X23 that knows what they’re doing for more than a few seconds. She has new techniques that we’ve found where she can do strings where she can force a normal to whiff in the string and then instantly throw you or set up command grab with an assist. Since those normals are also plus 6 and 12 on block that makes it really easy to frame trap people and set up counter hits. You can’t advance guard her without risking eating a command grab which which forces people to have to stick to standard blocking. Which she can easily start setting up tick throws, frame traps and assist based mix ups if you’re just sitting there blocking.
Wolverine doesn’t necessarily have everything X23 has it’s just a matter of what he has fundamentally is safer to use in tournament. You can go on all you want about how other characters are better but you should pretty much figure by now that the reason we pick X23 is because we like the tools and play style the character offers. We could all just go to the Wolverine thread and fall asleep but…yeah. It’s pretty obvious that XF level 1 Wolverine runs the game at this point but not everyone wants to durp around with that. That’s why we play X23.
X23 has enough potential where a good player can definitely make her threat. The fact that she has a level 3 super that is pretty much unavoidable post KO for most of the cast with an assist means she is capable of killing another character just because she killed the first one. Definitely not something most other characters can just up and do.
But the thing is, IMO, Silent Kill isn’t about just comboing into it. It’s primary use is meant to be an unblockable you can set up, something you can use to create inescapable situations. Now, Silent Kill is usually used on incoming characters. If you can get Silent Kill early on during the point position, it adds more fuel to your offence. You can do your usual business, but now you have the threat of activating Silent Kill during your offence, while locking them down with assists. X-23 relies on assists for her offence, her combos, her advances, everything so Silent Kill slots in nicely into her gameplan.
You auto start off with 1 bar, X-23’s loops with assists give you almost 3 bars without spending any meter. Or if you’ve been building a bit of meter beforehand during the match, you can get 3 bars straight away with a loop that ends with Crescent Scythe, which puts them into a reset position(they’re put in air tech) and puts them in the corner as well.
Right now, there’s not much need to do this due to the DHC glitch. But if it goes, I think this is what we’ll rely on, bolstering X-23’s offence with Silent Kill/comboing into it.
We all know X-23 isn’t as good as Magneto, Wesker and so on. Yeah, why pick her over those guys? Because she isn’t Magneto. She isn’t Wesker. She isn’t Wolverine. She has her own merits. We should be keeping an open mind with our characters, consider the possibilities and try to discover new stuff with her instead of getting discouraged. Same goes for the rest of the cast really, for the sake of this game’s evolution.
As for opening people up, DevilJin already explained everything. But I want to show you an example of the whiff cancelling technique.
Now I’m shit, I know that lol. I have little experience against live opponents because I rarely get a chance to play other people, and this is the first Versus series I’ve ever taken seriously, same goes for most of the people I play with too. But I think this is one of the only things I’ve ever done right with X-23. Watch up to 0:05. Alcheymyst advancing guards, but I get straight back in with Mirage Feint with an assist backing me and I start my offence again. Then, I do a string into Talon Dive, which blows up Alcheymyst’s normal and that’s a free combo(which would have been a dead Viper immediately, but my assist didn’t come out so no DHC glitch.)
If you watch carefully, you’ll see that before the Dive, I cancelled st.H before it hit, then went straight into Dive, to create a situation where Alcheymyst would get a failed advancing guard and Dive would go over and punish it. This set-up isn’t tight, but X-23’s feint pressure and tick throw game is tight, especially with assists, so the player has to push buttons at their own risk. Right now, not many people would wanna mash lights, they want to take the safe route and push the opponent away.
IMO, X-23’s offence is more subtle than Magneto’s 10 more years nonsense or Wolverine’s “getting all happy with Dives, instant overheads and Berserker Slash while some dumb assist backs him up” brain dead offence. X-23 has to actually put in the effort to open people up unlike certain other characters lol. But I think that’s why she’s interesting. Feel free to disagree, or skip over because this post is major long.
Yeah if you want X23’s offense to be scarier it’s time to actually put some high level techniques together and get off the ABCS, BBCS and random M/H talon attack X23. If that’s all you wanna do with X23 then obviously Wolverine is the better choice. You can do the same shit and get more results with him.
One of the main problem with the game is that some of the characters are disproportionately designed in a way where an absolute novice to fighting games could make the character effective but you can’t really worry about that if you want to play X23. Just because Wolverine can dive kick and berserker slash and land random safe shit doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what everyone wants to do. Some people want to use a character with a bit more to them than that.
@ Ryuga…yeah the whole point of that cancelling ability is that in Marvel I’ve started to realize that you dont always want your strings to be tight. Doing things like making tight block strings in Marvel especially at the level of play where people advance guard the first 2 things they block doesn’t really get you much but pushed away unless you have an assist available. That’s why it’s great that X23 has a lot of strategies to stagger and break up her block strings so people throw out normals or end up wave dashing when they they try to advance guard and get blown up. Right now people are still using basic Wesker style block strings that get blown up by push guard. X23’s c.L is very short ranged so you have to make use of her s.L and cancelling techniques with her s.M and s.H to blow up advance guard. Which once you do gives her more techniques to stop advance guard than most of the other cast.
^
I agree, exactly. People wanna push you away in general in this game and X-23 has nice ways to stagger/delay her offence and punish that. It’s more or less the same principle behind staggering strings in other games. I think X-23 is more or less, a cranked up SF4 Cammy haha, (well, not her AE version anyway, she got toned down) in the sense X-23 has the ability to create nasty offensive pressure and make you afraid of pressing buttons. Once that gets mastered, and it will, someone’s bound to do it, it’s not gonna be easy to just push her out when she gets in.
And I also agree that the decisions behind characters in this game make, like, zero sense. Why do characters like Wolverine, who also has a small hitbox, have 950K health? Why does Wesker have 1.1mil health? Why does X-23 have 830 health, even the likes of Magneto, who’s better than her all round, has a bit more health than her haha. I’m guessing it’s got something to do with Silent Kill. Anyway, I’ve gone beyond the point of questioning this game and I’m just gonna ride things out and see how it goes from here.
Maybe you fail to realize that a fighting games appeal lies in tournament play. Like I’ve said: When this game boils down to blankblankphoenix, this game will have three options.
Well it’s not like this game is at a stage yet where you can play it with any real seriousness. When Wolverine can kill off 2 of your characters viably with level 1 XF that’s just when you go “ok lets just press buttons in this shit and wait for Super MVC3”. Tokido pretty much retired me from trying to place highly in tournaments. The lack of execution required to be that much of a threat with Wolverine is just something I’m not trying to deal with in a competitive fashion. When easy mode shit like that can win you a bunch of money that’s when I just get the fuck out of there and go back to games that reward you for actually doing something competitive. Capcom needs to do something about that like yesterday. It’s just a game I play cuz its fun.
It’s not even Phoenix that’s the problem even though she is a big problem. Wolverine is the real problem. Wolverine + XF1 is thoughtless crap that shouldn’t be in fighting games. He’s the number one bullshit the game offers.
I am really not a fan of Magneto either. If you put in your time in training mode with him you are a threat, and his stuff isn’t even that hard. Mags, Wolverine, Amaterasu, Phoenix, Dante… all characters that independently ruin the game. Altogether, fuck em. All the top tiers can flowchart so hard it is not even funny. Even Wesker is pretty bad… I love how he plays so much and hope they leave him alone (aside from a big health nerf, imo he should only have 900k) but I can be too thoughtless with him when I’m playing and then using practically unbreakable air exchanges to go to X-23 and DHC glitch. Oh yeah, and I get a huge amount of meter when I do it too so I can very, very easily kill two characters off the opening combo.
I’m noticing a trend locally as well where people aren’t entering our weekly (FREE) Marvel tournaments anymore because they’d rather just play long casual sets. The game is too retarded to play best 2 out of 3 with bragging rights on the line, and we aren’t about to switch to FT5 in a double elim bracket. So really, when the game is like this I don’t want to play a top tier team that makes me interchangeable with 7,000 other randoms who play this game. I want to play strong but not top characters, keep working on the yomi I’ve been developing since SF4 came out, and show people new things every time I play.
Saying stuff like we “fail to realize the appeal of a fg is in tournament play” … your mileage may vary. Showing off your $10 corner trophy shop medals isn’t going to get you girls, you aren’t going to win a big money tournament, and usually the guys who win our small pot tournaments buy everybody drinks after and have maybe $50 left when they go home anyway. If you actually need to win tournaments for the money, your priorities are fucked because the time you need to sink practicing enough to win could be spent working a job.
There are a lot of different reasons to play fighting games.
