my first team was X23/Wesker/Sent … I figured Wesker was really easy to play for how much damage he could do and I liked his style. I dropped him for Amaterasu for awhile, after the DHC glitch was first discovered, because of Cold Star assist and easy ass 100% combos on everyone. Ammy is still a better char to take advantage of the DHC glitch than Wesker is, IMO. Wesker being able to combo after df+H OTG doesn’t work on everyone… it seems on Iron Man and Jill for instance, you have to call an assist, then OTG because c.M just whiffs so if you used Doom to start your combo you can’t accomplish anything after the DHC to Wesker. But, you can use Wesker gunshot to OTG into a full charge qcf+A neck slice, then since that is spinning knockdown you can do a stand H afterwards and feint cancel for one hell of a reset.
I dropped Ammy after awhile too because while Cold Star is nice, it is difficult to protect and doesn’t go full screen. Justin Wong told me as much when he was up here for a tournament… I asked why he didn’t ever call Ammy assist, and he said its too vulnerable and he doesn’t want Ammy to take any damage before he has to put her on point. Wesker is great on point but seeing what ppl have been doing with Ammy lately… I dunno but I think she is clearly the better of the two characters. I’m going to be messing around with X-23/Ammy/Doom in the coming days too.
Hmm Doom I had always been spending time in training mode with because I liked his combos a lot and I think he does awesome as an anchor. He blows up Sent assist so bad, too. After the Sent health nerf I swapped him out for Doom… although when I’m controlling him, he’s definitely a Doombot. His beam is kickass for X-23 and works great to extend combos as Wesker. Rocks is faster but works so differently. I find it a lot more difficult to combo after than beam is. Scaling isn’t an issue with either one… if Wesker assist is still available, you can still turn almost any one meter combo into 950k minimum damage. Doom is also a counterpick to certain characters like Tron and Sent and has better tools to lame people out too, in case you want to run them out of X-factor time or something. Doom also has hilariously easy unblockables with X-23 and Wesker assist and he can turn any opening into a 700k+ combo so there is that as well.
Seems like a very strong team to me. Hmm one downside is that if you catch two characters in a combo, you need to burn an extra meter to get really good damage out of it… dhc from X-23 qcf super, to Wesker counter super, to Doom plasma sphere. If you x-factor before the OTG as X-23 that is two dead characters almost certainly. even lvl1 plasma sphere does INSANE damage. DHC from Maximum Wesker to Doom is tough, that takes training mode time to be able to line up your plasma sphere properly and even then it is a crap shoot.
Even if you start losing characters you are still left with mostly good pairs afterwards.
X-23/Wesker is probably the strongest of them because you still have the DHC glitch, plus unblockables no matter which character is on point. Wesker also has a great DHC to X-23 dp super from Maximum Wesker.
X-23/Doom you can still get in to start your combos. X-23 to Doom is great for DHCs… Doom back to X-23 not so much but pretty much everybody is dead after Doom combos anyways so thats not a big deal.
Wesker/Doom is a wicked team too. Beam + teleport mixups are too dirty and they are two of the hardest hitting characters in the game.
overall I think you definitely have great tools to win with x-23/wesker/doom. Ultimately my team is built around making X-23 work though… for some reason I am commited to this character and I want to make her work come hell or high water. Her one touch kill potential is just too good… if you can put together a good set of setups to land the first (and only) hit you need as X-23, you can murder almost anyone you want at will.
Don’t hold Forward before doing the fireball motion. Try doing a half circle motion.
You can s.H into Mirage Feint H and go into any of her BnB combos. s.H would be her best anti-air. I find s.M or c.M to be a great anti-air tool for tri-jumpers and sometimes for characters who like to teleport above/behind you such as Wesker. Again if you connect either M, go into your s.H and combo. I think her BnB combos actually take off a bit more damage if they start off from s.H.
If you connect someone in the air (normal jump or even a super jump), like say M, M, H, end it in talon dive L, when you land, you can do s.M, s.H, Mirage Feint H into your BnB. I’ve been able to use c.L and c.M to hit opponents after landing but i haven’t experimented with it yet. I’ll say it again, sometimes just a talon dive L that connects to someone airborne is enough to start a big combo with s.M after she lands.
After a forward air throw mid screen, there is enough time for her to forward dash and OTG with a fully charged ankle slicer (from a super jump at low heights as well.) There may be time to throw out an assist during the dash to connect with the ankle slicer, but again, not really sure.
Other than stop people from flying perhaps and to get out of the corner…
You can do WXP off of a fully charged neck or ankle slice since it staggers the opponent. You can probably do it after the neck one causes a spinning knockdown, but I haven’t tried it since I try not to use it against jumping opponents.
Haha, yeah, I’m finding I’m finding it funny that quite a few of the Viper forum members are picking similar characters to each other. I noticed you and Killey also pick similar chars. Hsien Ko, you’re right, she’s a lamer, she’s there to poke and to annoy with projectiles. She can do some good damage combos, but unfortunately, they’re all in the corner. She sort of has an offence with IAD jumping attacks for pressure; her j.H is pretty good. Reflecting projectiles is handy too, but certain ones she can’t reflect, like Storm’s Whirlwind.
FaithfromHell answered all the questions, but for the WXP Hyper one, you can land it without an assist on big characters like Sentinel and apparently She-Hulk(haven’t tested this out yet.)
I wanted to use Amaterasu, since she’s another character with nasty DHC combos and have Cold Star for cover and offence, which would kill two birds with one stone. But I’m not feeling her and after what you guys are saying, perhaps not.
Just found out that X-23 can DHC with Morrigan’s Astral Vision into combo with Trish’s Low Voltage for 1.2mil(will post notations soon) and what’s hilarious is that Morrigan’s Astral Vision builds meter so you’ll get a bar back afterwards. If I can find a suitable assist for the two, Chun will get the boot and I’ll start learning Morrigan, she seems more my style anyway and is quite versatile.
EDIT: Was looking that option select throw thread,(http://shoryuken.com/f340/option-select-throw-269954/)using those in X-23’s game would be really nasty and shut down people looking to escape her offence and help pin them down quite nicely. Especially the throw>air throw OS.
When I EVER have a chance to record some ranked matches (work beating my ass into a pulp this week, I’m in the office and it’s 9pm, last night was here til midnight, FML) then you will understand why you might want to use Air Talon H. Seriously that shit is gdlk.
Also I hate all of you for writing these long posts which look to be interesting while I’m busy as hell and can’t really read them in full.
I think I remember someone in this thread saying earlier that if you do heavy talon attack after you jump, it’ll act as a sort of psuedo super jump that lets you call assists during it. I’ve tried it, and you can have your doom beam or whatever firing almost exactly as/after you land.
As Squire stated above, H talon’s primary use is for escaping bad situations…for now. I really haven’t seen anyone use the M talon (outside of the mission 8 or 9 IIRC) or H talon for combos.
That’s correct. I knew there was one more way to use talon H.
Probably has already been mentioned, but for the lulz I also want to add that for Weapon X Prime, frames 6-64 are invincible. She can almost run through Ice Storm, but if she is in distance of Storm, she will catch her. Ice Storm has a slow startup and can be reacted to, but if WXP hasn’t reached that 6th frame, then ouch. Just be careful for DHCs that counter like Wesker’s and Taskmaster… or you’ll be in for a world of hurt. :\ I also have to point out that if an assist character is standing in between you and the opponent’s point character, they’ll just get in the way. I see this happen a lot when people wanna get in on Taskmaster’s Zoning with Doom’s Hidden Missiles and doom just Chris Hansen’s X-23’s WXP.
I use Ammy with X-23 and… I love the DHC options, especially if I have Hulk in. Ammy is so squishy as an assist, it’s really a big risk to throw her out. But I love using her because she’s so dog gone good. I like having Okami shuffle always ready thanks to Morrigan. It’s a strange chemistry, but this team lacks good anti-air defense. Crizzle’s Sentinel flight + Magneto assist pretty much had me looking free. Can’t M Talon cause frying pan will own you. Attacking Sentinel from super jump range is just asking to get launched into a combo of death. Still trying to figure something out that works.
Oh ok so you already kinda had Wesker from the start and then brewed up Doom later. Yeah Doom is way too versatile to not have. People were sleeping on him because of his weird movement and dash cancellable normals (which give him specific benefits that no other character can do).
With Wesker it would probably help if you told me exactly which combo you were doing. Either way what I’ve learned is that during normal bnbs where you OTG Iron Man with low shot you can press c.L and that will lift him off the ground. c.L causes a juggle state also obviously.
The more I’m starting to think about it the more I realize Doom is probably going to be the best anchor for the team any way and probably just in general. Wesker is an obvious good choice for anchor because if he hits you with command grab or c.L you’re pretty much done etc. If I do end up using Doom on point before he becomes XF lvl 3 anchor it would definitely be cool to set up some unblockables with his air dash game also. Probably the BEST part about Dr.Doom being in XF Level 3 is that if he back throws you…you’re gone. You dont even have to do anything complicated. Like back throw or air back throw to OTG s.H to sphere flame in XF level 3 does like 1 million damage. Basically I just do a combo or back throw them and end it with sphere flame and it kills most people on the spot.
Oh and about your problem with killing 2 characters at once on a bad assist call I would say it’s not a terrible issue. You can easily turn on level 1 X factor after doing Wesker’s counter super and do like 1.3 million damage with no need to DHC cancel into Doom.
Good tips. I’ll keep them in mind.
Mmmm yeah I think Morrigan is a character that is greatly augmented with the DHC glitch. It allows her to come on to screen doing big damage off another character. The fact that she builds meter during astral vision is pretty sweet too. Dont have to worry about having no meter after doing all that damage.
Yeah a friend of mine told me early on about the OS throw stuff that Alioune discovered and I’ve been using it in my Dr.Doom game a lot.
Like to see what you find out. Oh and yeah now that there’s actually some real discussion about the character going hopefully you can get some free time to read it all up. I just found something new again that’s kinda tricky for her left right game that I’ll post below also.
Oh that makes sense. I just have to do a normal jump first so I can still call assist.
** Overall ** I’m glad to be an X23 player now because she fits my play style more than pretty much any other character in the game and go well with Wesker and Doom who I really both like as well as technical mix up characters that have strong zone games. X23 definitely has the most threatning offense of the 3 but u defintely need to have assists set up and know all of her feint cancel and tiger knee techniques to really make it strong. Without all of that she’s just running around like a bad Wolverine. She’s like Phoenix in that you have to build your team around her but instead of feeding her meter you feed her really strong assists that turn her simple left right game into left right and high low unblockables and clear her a path to get in on the opponent and make her M mirage feint safer to use.
On that note I found another cool tool to use to mix people up more. I only have one stick so I couldn’t test it with a person but I’m going to assume it does what I think it does.
**Ambiguous reverse L talon attack. **
This is a technique you can use (barring further testing) to create what is basically similar to what C.Viper would do in SFIV to constantly ambiguously cross people up with her burn kicks. Instead you’re just reversing the motion of the talon attack so even though you’re behind the opponent in the air you’ll make the talon attack go back in the direction of the opponent and if u do it at the right height they basically have to guess in a split second if you’re hitting them from the left or the right. Sometimes it even works out where the talon attack will look like its going to hit behind them then it whiffs and lands back in front of them and if they didn’t switch blocks you can combo off that.
The best way to set this up is anytime you get a chance forward jump just over the head of a crouching opponent. Usually you’ll have want to have jumped from about a sweep distance so you get correct room to set this up.
**The command is simply to make sure you jump over your opponent with a regular forward jump (from about sweep distance or a bit closer) and wait till you’re coming down but still a bit over their head. Once that is all set do the talon attack in reverse. Which is basically air qcb+L. **
The game will consider you behind the opponent even though you’re not actually turned around to face your opponent. The command is the same as Viper’s reverse burn kick to move her farther across the screen. You use this same technique to bring your talon attack back in the direction of the opponent and create an ambiguous 50/50. If you land this in the correct spot it should be very difficult to tell which way to block and even if they do block it you’re safe on block and can continue pressure. You can mix this in with the earlier tiger knee talon L technique to force the opponent to constantly wonder if you’re going to just rush in from the front with tiger knee L’s to keep them on the ground or try to get over them to 50/50 cross. Mixing that in also with air d+H talon claws will give your opponent a lot to worry about even if you dont really add in assists yet. Like said above if you place this correctly sometimes it will even whiff and ambiguously land back in front or behind to cause more confusion.
If you’re playing against better players that like to air throw to anti air your jump attempts you’re probably better off making sure you cover this with an assist first to keep them blocking then go in at the right distance for it.
Advanced techniques
Now that I’ve been thinking about it there’s probably some better ways to set this up. I noticed that if you do a dash first from a bit outside of sweep distance then jump forward you kinda propel yourself forward and behind your opponent to get a better setup for the cross up. You basically just dash forward then cancel the dash half way into a forward jump then do the reverse talon attack while in the air on top of your opponent.
Now here’s where we’re going to make things really tricky. (I like trickies being an Ibuki/Viper player)
Essentially what you can do now is combine the tiger knee talon attack, reverse talon attack, and the new non cross up or cross up d+H to ambiguous delayed air qcf+L talon attack if you land d+H in front or if you get behind them with the d+H do a reverse talon claw to create a crazy set of different left right mix ups. You kinda should know by now how the tiger knee talon attack and reverse talon attacks work so I’ll go into more about the air d+H to forward talon and reverse talon.
This is probably the most important thing to know about the overall technique. Air d+H to forward or reverse talon attack is a special technique. You basically want to air d+H in the center of your opponent to get this started. Now the one thing you’ll kinda have to remember is that if you can tell you are still in front of the opponent you should cancel into a regular forward talon attack by doing air d+H to qcf+L. If you feel that you are going to end up behind your opponent then you have do a reverse talon attack after the air d+H talon claw.
The reason you basically want to do all of this is because once you learn the 2 things above this should create what is basically a coin drop left right mix up. Lets say for instance you just want to do the first thing which is air d+H in the center of them but not actually cross them up. Which means you want to stay in front of the opponent with the air d+H. You can do that and then press qcf+L the instant the talon claw touches the opponent to create a left right mix up. Even though you know you are going to land in front you can press air qcf+L after the connected d+H when u are still a bit above their head and it will cross them up. Which means they would have had to block the air d+H regularly then block the air qcf+L in the opposite direction since the game will throw you forward and behind them. If you delay your air qcf+L a slight bit you’ll end up landing back in front so they’ll have to block regularly as if you never crossed them up. Which is tricky because it’s only like a few frames difference between when you press air qcf+L that determines if you’ll go behind them or run back in front of them. This also acts as a easy mode hit confirm into combos rather than having to precise link off the d+H.
You can do the same thing with a cross up d+H to again create ANOTHER left right mix up. If this all works out she will pretty much be the queen of left right mix ups in this game. Basically the only thing different you’re doing is actually crossing them up with d+H then forcing them into another mix up right after by doing a reverse talon attack after crossing them up. When you cross them up with the d+H the game will consider you behind the opponent and in order to do a talon attack you will have to do a reverse talon attack (air qcb+L). ** Again…if you do this just early enough you’ll land behind the opponent and if it do it a few frames later you’ll end back in front of the opponent creating a left right mix up…immediately after a left right mix up. LOL.**
When you get this technique down and barring that it actually works against live people like I think it will you’ll basically be forcing the opponent into double left right dive cross ups. Essentially it’ll be like fighting Wolverine’s left right dive kick except if he could like dive kick ambigously, then before he touches the ground he would be able to dive kick again ambiguously to try again to cross up up. It basically gives you 2 chances to cross your opponent up with a dive kick before touching the ground. If this works like I think it will NOBODY will want X23 near them because they’ll have to deal with double dive crosses all day.
Probably the best way for the opponent to deal with this is to stand up to block so that it forces your talon attack crosses after the air d+H cross to whiff. At least on a normal sized character like Captain America this will normally happen if he stand blocks. This is fine though because going back to using the jump to reverse talon attack by itself to ambiguously cross up their standing hit box. Which means you wont need to use the air d+H. Just jump on and press air qcb+L just as you go over their head.
The great thing about her dives also is that they aren’t really affected much by advance guard. With the dummy set to all advance guard the pushback is pretty minimal most of the time on the dives if they somehow find a way to advance guard it. Which then you can break that up by using throws or whiffing an instant air d+H right in front of them to force them to throw out an attack which will counter hit and combo.
^
I was just about to post that X-23 could double-cross up with D+H into Talon Dive lol, I’ve got to be a bit quicker. I wonder…since D+H can be cancelled into L Talon before it hits, could X-23 score a cross-up from that too? That would be sick and quite nasty as your opponent goes to block the Talon, but nope! Eats a cross-up instead lol.
And if you land the Talon Dive, you can wipe out over 700,000+ of their health(with an assist to OTG.) Just skip the starting L of 10stars’ 491K loop then OTG into Weapon X and wham.
Looks like you were already thinking ahead then. I try not to confuse the Talon Dive and Attack moves so I’ll try to clear up the difference so we know what we’re talking about. Talon Dive is the air d+H and Talon Attack is the air qcf+L.
Which combo are you doing to wipe off 700k? For right now I’m just focusing on using her for the 1.15 million death combo DHC reset into Wesker but it would be nice to know some other stuffz.
I’m really glad we’re starting to crack out X23 and not waiting for someone to do it on jtv.
I’ve been playing around with this for a while, either using Hsien Ko’s assist to get them to block or from advancing guard when they’re in the corner, I do a mirage feint M to cross them up in the corner then I do a wall jump into an immediate Talon Dive cancelled into talon attack. Depending on where you cancel the talon dive the talon attack can cross them up. It’s fun to do lol
lol guys seriously I got the X-23 combo situation on lock. 10star’s BnB is not optimal for damage… builds a little bit more meter and doesn’t need adjustments mid screen based on the matchup, but that’s all that is going for it imo. its just combo 1 from the guide anyway IIRC
apples to apples comparison, no assists. starting from stand H ending in ankle slice OTG to qcf super
my BnB - 620,900 works everywhere vs everyone once you figure it out. builds just over 1 meter
10stars/guide - 601,700 and doesn’t work in the corner vs most chars. builds about 1.25
mine
s.H xx 214H, j.M j.H xx 236L, s.M (2 hits) s.H xx 214H j.M j.H xx 236L s.M (1 hit) s.H s.S sj.M sj.M sj.H sj.d+h xx 236L
combo does 1,000 more damage with only 1 hit of s.M in the middle of the combo, but then your s.H will whiff vs characters like Iron Man, Tron and Sentinel. you just have to watch the height 2 hits isn’t always required.
10stars/guide
s.H xx j.M j.M j.H / /\ j.M j.M j.H j.S / /\ j.M j.M j.H j.S xx 236L, s.M (1 hit) s.H s.S sj.M sj.M sj.H sj.d+h xx 236L
j.S whiffs vs almost everyone in the corner
max damage BnB is
s.H xx 214H j.M j.H j.d+H xx 236L s.M (2 hits) s.H xx 214H j.M j.H j.d+H xx 236L s.M (1 hit) s.H s.S sj.M sj.M sj.H sj.d+H xx 236L
but I find this combo very difficult. can’t say how well it works midscreen because my success rate with it is so low
DevilJin01 this is my X-23/Wesker combo, max damage as far as I can tell. vs big characters you can always do it because the X-23 loop, Wesker OTG into Neck slicer dp super will always corner them, giving you a perfect Maximum Wesker setup. comes just short of killing Thor but with a jump in on X-23’s end of the combo that problem is solved
Talon Attack L>M(one hit), H,>qcb+H, J.M, J.H, air D.H>qcf+L(land), M(1 hit), H>qcb+H, J.M, J.M, J.H(land), J.M, J.M, J.H, J.S>qcf+L(land), H,S(super jump), J.M, J.M, J.H, air D.H>qcf+L, fully charged Medium Ankle Slice(assist to hit with Slice) then Weapon X Prime. 700,000 but I can’t remember what assist I was using at the time haha, it was either Hsien Ko’s Senpu Bu(Pendulum) or Chun’s Legs.
I’m also glad this forum is quickly out of its slump when there was some talk of just picking Wolverine over her haha. All that’s left is putting it all together and playing. Personally, I think X-23 will be one of the most picked characters on teams in the future and will be highly ranked.
Sakeido, I’ll test out that last combo for you and see how well it does midscreen.
EDIT: 10stars’ reset adjusted for midscreen: [media=youtube]NUoBfBlPs8U&feature=channel_video_title[/media]
You can cancel sweep with Mirage Feint S and go into a loop too. It’s amazing how X-23 can land legit combos off random pokes from afar that can’t be whiffed punished. Sweep and st.H are definitely her best pokes for this.
Good stuff dudes. I’ma start to put stuff together now that I got an extra stick to borrow to mess around with.
Yeah I kinda prefer to mirage feint after sweep ATM if I’m doing a BnB and save the s.H for anti air situations. Either way you can’t really good wrong since s.H should hit most crouching people.
apples to apples comparo. starting from stand H, ankle slice OTG with no assists
my BnB - 620,900
10stars - 601,700
yours - 664,900 o_O
yours, minus the first d+H (for difficulty reasons :lol:) - 645,300
looping j.M j.H j.d+H xx 236L twice gives you 646,500
with Wesker OTG to qcf+A xx dp super that gets you just over 712k with no jump ins or anything, but IMO hitstun scaling becomes a big issue with the extended combo, so you gotta be totally on point if you want to use this in a match. even still it hits so hard… doing 700k+ for one meter off one opening is pretty fuckin sweet
Hmmm yeah. I would probably learn Ryuga’s combo for a situation where either X23 ends up on point but Wesker is dead or against low health characters where its more worth it to land one more mix up or reset and win than blow 2 meters on DHC reset.
Otherwise I like the easy damage off of Sakeido’s for guaranteeing kill on big health characters or characters that are just fuck all annoying to fight until u kill them like Magneto.
God this character is good. Way better than Chun Li. Chun Li helped me learn the game but when good people crack out 23 people gonna see the light.
I can’t believe I thought X-23 was B-tier lol. She just seems…absurd. Or maybe it’s because I just came from a game where nobody had any real strength lol(SSF4.)
nom for front page if you think it deserves it I think I hit up most the basics… if you guys think I missed anything important, let me know and I’ll do a follow up vid
I think I hit up most the basics… if you guys think I missed anything important, let me know and I’ll do a follow up vid