MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
5081

I do like that the team/assist nature of this game lets you get away with playing middle tier characters in some spots and stay competitive. While you could be the jerk that plays Wesker/Mag/Phoenix, I don’t feel like you’re putting yourself impossibly behind by switching out one of those three for a middle-tier character.

On the flipside however, I think your team has to pay respect to Phoenix and have some answers for her built in. If your last character is Tron or Haggar for instance, your first two characters pretty much have to be capable of snapping her in and killing her quickly in the early game. Yes all characters have snaps and most have mix-up on character entry, but certainly some characters are better at it then others.

5082

What would you guys make as a tier list if we’re tiering characters while in X-Factor (if the level makes a significant different as far as the answer, then I guess assume level 3, though I was thinking just “in x-factor” in general)?

Obv Dark Phoenix is up top, Wesker is high up, Doom is very strong though not sure about “top.” Would Magneto and Dante still be tip-top? Ammy would go down significantly, Taskmaster pretty high up. Wolverine, Storm, and Trish very strong as well. I was thinking about this last night. What would a tier list look like rating the characters while in XF relative to eachother in XF. Thoughts?

Edit: Chrisis brought up a good point: to be clear I dont necc mean character in XF fighting other characters in XF (where chip damage isnt a factor), but simply how good they are in XF in general relative to eachother.

5083

Fireworks existing being one of them. Why in the world can he do it on whiff and something that’s meant as a combo tool destroys practically all projectiles in the game?

5084

Best XF characters if you’re just counting what they can do in XF IMO are Phoenix, Akuma (level 3 XF legit problem for any version of Phoenix) Wesker, Wolverine (he has 2 xfactors…), Dante (has 2 XF’s also), Doom (has an 830 thousand damage level 1 super in XF3), Dormammu (legit problem for any version of Phoenix), x23 (level 2 XF kill a character then dirt nap kill the next with a lockdown assist), Felicia (crack fast movement, 5 frame command grab to death combos and has infinite), Sentinel and Taskmaster. There are other characters that are legit problems in XF2/3 like Chun Li or Ryu but they dont have quite the versatility in it that the others do.

Morrigan might be the only other sleeper in XF since she basically has two XF’s also but no one in general has done anything with her to make her that scary. Some characters like Storm are strong in XF because of their chipping power with hail but as soon as they turn on XF you lose that and just become a decent XF character.

Not really gonna make a tier out of it but those are who stand out immediately for me.

5085

Dante got a lot of love from Capcom when they put him together. Maybe he was too difficult to use for the playtesters to see what he could do, so he was only balanced around his basic and obvious stuff.

5086

I’m fine with the fact that they made him too good so that way he’ll always be solid as long as they tone down the right things. Right now he can do a bit too much of everything but we’ll see what happens. He could have 750k health and still be number 1 easy.

5087

after capcom’s cast was grossly underrepresented in mvc2, capcom made sure they have at least one character that’ll fuck everyone up.

5088

Yeah he’s definitely Capcom’s Magneto. LOL. More stylish gunz blazing wise cracking Magneto.

5089

Yeah, I noticed that too. Not only were they trying to balance the game around game play mechanics, but around the individual companies as well.
Capcom probably looked at the MvC2 tier list and was like, “Out of the top 15, 12 of them are Marvel characters? Oh hell no, it’s on. Someone get to work on Dante stat!”

5090

For some reason SRK is making half my text black and the other white, does anyone know how to fix this? >.> I just did a work around of making it blue but clicking white or black doesn’t seem to help.

IMO best users of X-factor level 3 in the game are:

Phoenix/DarkPhoenix: It removes her massive vulnerability to chip, that’s almost more important than the speed or damage which are also very good.

Dormammu: Gives him the ability to legitimately chip characters to death if he catches them in the air, makes a lot of his zoning tools much more effective based on lack of recovery time.

Slept on X-factor 3 of the moment:
Dante: People not realizing how stupid his X-factor 3 chip is need to make a comparison. A lot of people realize Akuma’s Messatsu/Tenma-Gohado Ungyo hurts a lot on chip in X-factor 3.

That does 260,300 (18,000 x 25) with a 2.05 multiplier: That’s 533,615 30% of that in chip = 160,084.5

Dante’s Thunder bolt in comparison:

130,700 (20,000 x 8) with a multiplier of 1.8: 235,260 30% of that in chip = 70,578

Those just seeing the numbers would conclude that Akuma’s is superior, but let’s take a look at some of the things about Thunderbolt that make it vastly superior for chipping.

First advancing guard does not effect Thunder bolt as one of its ridiculous properties so Akuma’s damage on advancing guard eliminates roughly every other hit

Akuma: 80,042.25

Dante: 70,578

With that Akuma’s slightly stronger, now to factor in the important part, within a super jump thanks to the advancing guard negation you can string together 5 thunder bolts in a block string and this will happen only slightly slower than 1 Akuma super. To get 5 it’s thunder bolt, thunder bolt, fly thunder bolt, thunder bolt, thunder bolt.

So with that knowledge in mind:

Akuma: 80,042.25

Dante: 352,890

Dante can get roughly 2 super jump chip sets out of 1 Devil trigger.

So in comparison a mashed advancing guard against Akuma’s air held super gets 80,042.25 a Respectable connected jumping S worth of damage

Dante out of the same amount of gauge with the same advancing guard mash gets 705,780. More than a connected Akuma super.

If they don’t advancing guard at all that’s still 705,780 versus 160,084.5.

And with only a single super jump instead of comparing the amount of gauge that it takes it’s still 352,890 to 160,084.5 in Akuma’s most favorable situation.

5091

lol pretty much this. i dunno how they let wesker slide either. i personally thought he was gonna be meh.

5092

Well I remember people early on talking about how he had a maximum spider that could cross up. I was like “hmmm…sounds good.” Little did I know that was like the least threatning thing about Wesker. LOL.

I think the developers just kind of assumed Wesker would have a bit of trouble getting in since he had no air dash and his teleports are unsafe without assist even if he hits you with the gun. The thing is when he has assist with the teleports he can close the gap pretty much anytime he wants and the fact that his gun shoots tri dashes out of the air and leads to combos from full screen is hilarious. It’s almost as if they made him to be an anti marvel character. Which means he can fuck up everybody cuz the marvel characters weren’t and still aren’t no joke.

The fact that I have to duck and walk or tri dash forward to approach Wesker shooting his gun with Dr.Doom is pretty ridiculous. None of Doom’s projectiles are fast enough to stop the gun unless I’m in XF and if I take to the air pretty much period unless I’m at super jump height I’m toast. Characters that have tall wave dashes and have to rely on tri jumps to get in have problems with Wesker. That’s why I think even Magneto has problems with Wesker. He has a projectile counter you must respect and if you tri dash in wrong you get shot and comboed.

Characters that do “better” against Wesker tend to be those that are small especially when wave dashing so they dont have to respect the gun. Characters like Wolverine, X23, Jill, Felicia, Ammy etc. The fact that most of those characters just want to get in screws with Wesker’s gameplan because his teleports go in one set place and only cross when the person is at distance. Once the person closes the gap his teleports are neutered. Luckily he still has beast ass pokes.

Once people learn to stay close to him or stay outside of his cross up range to screw up his teleports he’ll be a bit easier to deal with but he still has a bunch of shit for every situation. Somehow Dante has even more shit.

5093

I remember I hyped the shit out of Dante and said shit like he’d be the best in the game. My friends told me “nah Wesker > Dante,” and now of course they’re all godlike with Dante.

5094

I would really like to see a sit-down session with someone from the development crew, as they go through each and every character and state what the team was thinking during the design process and how they feel about how the character has turned out since.

5095

This.

5096

With Hsien Ko they must have been thinking “CAPTAIN COMMANDOOOO”

5097

There will always be godlike characters in fighting games. It’s unavoidable. I know you guys aren’t complaining I just wanted to hear what your opinions were on this. If you disagree what game doesn’t have them? Because I haven’t played every fighter but the ones I have I can name the characters that are godlike.

5098

SSFIV is definitely a game where nobody was gdlk. Probably the only fighting game I’ve ever played where like everyone was so meticulously balanced that it was pretty much just the best of the mediocre. Even the high tiers in that game aren’t really scary or powerful. They just do a bit better than the others. Which is mainly what I can’t stand about the game. None of the characters feel powerful or interesting and every matchup just comes down to “who can do shit and who can’t do shit”. When Bison and Balrog players cried about one or 2 nerfs to their character you can just tell it was a game of mediocre characters trying to survive.

I like Marvel because along with the characters being unique in play style they all have their own unique cheapness to them and with the game’s high damage output anybody can really survive. It gets a bit too crazy obviously with the XF involved but most of the cast can definitely fight each other and generally do powerful things. It makes it so you have to fear all the characters even the lower tiered ones and that’s the way a lot of older fighting games were. Making a game where everyone is forcefully made around being as uncheap as possible makes it so there’s boring characters that win and then there’s boring characters that just get pushed around and lose.

5099

I won’t disagree that there will be godlike characters in fighting games. In fact, when images and videos of the game started to leak out, the fans were going nuts, praising the game saying that ALL of the characters looked godlike. Months down the road and countless hours of player experience has since shown otherwise.

*Some *characters are godlike. Some are very good. Some are ok. Some are garbage. Some characters are strong in some areas, but weak in others. Some have no apparent weaknesses whatsoever, or ones that are able to be made nearly non-existent when paired with the right assist.

The balance of power just seems really off when you compare a top tier characters like Dante, Wolverine, or Wesker with a low tier characters like Hsien-Ko, Haggar or Morrigan. You can’t help but wonder why some characters were given such an obvious gold-star treatment where others seem to just simply be there, sitting on the bench with no real reason to be played.

It almost seems like Capcom developed this game with the intent to get players to gravitate towards certain characters that they intentionally made good, and away from characters they intentionally made bad.

5100

But it was just an improvement on SFIV no? I agree that it is balanced. Funny that AE appears to not include that balance but wasn’t it said by Ono that it intentionally lacked that much balance.