I have Viper in my Top 12, but Doom IDK.
i really think viper is good. but top 2? i just don’t see it. top 10 possibly. and doom being top 8 is kinda wishful thinking. too many characters that are better than him for him to reach that far.
I agree about both. IDK why people still think Doom is just an assist character. Viper for sure is top 10 and probably top 5 IMO but I don’t know about top 2. I just think Dante, Magneto, and Wesker have a little more to them than Viper. Sure Viper is TOD character, but so is Magneto with the right DHC team set up (which most competitive Magnetos do now). Dante obviously has some more complicated but lethal combos that can TOD a lot of the cast. Wesker is just really really dumb and touches you once and can kill you in his never ending mix up that is easily in his favor.
I just think that those characters have an easier time landing that first hit to TOD than Viper does. Whether it be Magneto Buggs Bunnying around for high/lows, Wesker calling an assist and ending up ABOVE and BEHIND you, or Dante’s sword that can is able to reach Miami from Egypt… they just have a little more going on than Viper IMO. Time will tell though once people stop whoring Wolverine/Wesker(guilty) and take a step into the realm of a little more complicated characters.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately when trying to come up with teams that gives Phoenix a harder time - basically, trying to find the easiest way to kill her after a snapback early in the game.
There are a bunch of characters that can use teleports or movement abilities to do left/right mix-ups on characters as they enter. However, there are plenty of characters that can just dash under someone as they come in to get a similar effect, too.
Tier lists have already kinda been made with these abilities taken into consideration with the overall pressure/mixup that the character brings to the table. We shouldn’t move Wolverine up higher because he can cross people up on entry - that’s partially why he’s high to begin with.
not only does dante have TOD combos but he’s also way better equipped than viper as far as options goes. viper needs to spend a bar for her great specials while dante don’t and his normals shit all over vipers.
Viper/Coldstar Ammy unblock is scary as fuck when you don’t have a fly or an air to air/ground invincible move.
Wesker jumping loop into 2l/air grab/command grab is one of the scariest mixups i’ve seen.
Dante acid rain/multi-lock setup into teleport into randomness is also super dangerous even by itself. With assists, it can be hell to escape.
X-23 Level 3 also gets honor roll but it’s not really a mix up. It’s pretty much guaranteed though if you have jam sesh assist.
And yeah, I agree. The ability to deal with entering the arena offensively or defensively is a big factor.
My biggest problem with chipping/zoning teams is that they lose for free to Phoenix teams. They have no way to force her in early and deal with her - they have to fight her every game, and they are going to struggle there like everyone else.
Also, they struggle against top tier rushdown because of teleports and risk/reward.
Having bad match-ups against Phoenix teams AND the best rushdown teams is a shitty spot to be in the metagame.
I think Arthur is at his best when he is an anchor with XF3 and gold armor, one of the best anchors in my opinion. Regular Arthur just sucks.
I have Doom specifically around slot 8ish, around Zero. I think he’s definitely not easy to play, but the fact that he should kill every character he touches, has amazing mix up, good DHCs and very safe pressure is good. His normals although worse than Magneto all lead into continued pressure in very safe ways, having some of the better assists in the game doesn’t hurt, great DHCs, DHC glitch ender, builds lots of gauge without needing to use it to do damage, very ambiguous mix up etc. I don’t think he’s as good as Mags/Task/Dante/Viper etc, but I definitely think he’s better than Storm/Trish/She-hulk.
As for Viper, I’ve made cases before and I will continue to, Viper’s weaknesses are her normals for poking and her execution barrier. The normals are a moot point in most situations when she can use specials to poke with to vastly greater effect. The execution barrier is an issue until people pass it. As far as match ups she either dominates or wins against the the vast majority of the cast including very important match ups (Dog/Taskmaster/She-hulk/Wesker/Dormammu/Storm/Spencer/Akuma/etc) and goes even with a few important match ups (Magneto/Zero) and has very minimal bad match ups (Phoenix/Trish/MODOK) With robot execution she has 10-0 match ups which should never be in a fighting game.
Some misconceptions that make people under rate Viper:
-Low damage without gauge: Starting with less than one tenth of one meter Viper can kill any character with 1,100,000 life or less off of her practical mix up.
-Mix up, her mix up is too slow/bad: Executing her proper mix up is what makes it hard more than it being not good, she has a continuous high low throw mix up game that is faster than Magneto’s and on advancing guard still continues into itself, if she hits with high, low, or throw all can lead into death. Her left right game is dramatically harder to execute than Zero or Wolverine but just as fast and ambiguous
-Bad pokes: Her normals are bad for poking from a lot of ranges, most of those she can seismic hammer and start an offense off of it. Her normals are only terrible until she’s in point blank range then they’re decent.
-She can’t deal with zoning: Viper has a small air hit box that she can change the shape of and trajectory of in many ways, Seismic hammer akin to disruptor is one of the best anti-Zoning tools in the game except unlike Disruptor Viper gets a lot more than a shockwave or gravity squeeze after hammer and can kill a character with decent execution off of the hit and even bad execution hitting with it in mid range.
-Viper can’t fill all roles like the top tier can: Her rush down is on par or better than the top tier, and her zoning is as well. She has safe on block invincible reversals that lead into dead characters so she can deal with pressure and her damage output is enough to kill anyone. The only position that she’s at a disadvantage at is against characters who can control the ground from high in the air who have great air mobility and ways to safely cover their next super jump. She wins all match ups that take place within normal jump height 3/4 of the screen away or less.
arthur is straight up countered in this game by soooo many things:
beam/horizontal supers
teleport style moves (skrull airdash D+h and regular teleport, wolverine zerker slash count as teleport style moves to me)
fast rushdown
XF negating his chip
just off the top of my head…
beam supers and teleports are a nightmare in themselves to deal with for him, plus the fact that there are SOOO many characters that have atleast one of those things.
arthur was very shittily designed, and dies in one easy combo…
LOL mucho respect to those that still main him on point. though i havent seen anyone do that anymore.
he needs a complete rework in my mind.
-dime
Dude, I always hear you going on an on about how good viper is, and I’ve been watching Marlinpie, and I can’t see that OMG ridiculous damage starting from 1 meter. She has some good stuff, but top 2 is pushing it really far.
Seismo doesn’t hit full screen. Comparing it to disruptor is pretty far fetched.
Viper may be top 2 in your mind, but in reality, she’s getting bodied by Wolverine and the likes.
Top Tier:
Amaterasu
Dante
Phoenix
Magneto
Wesker
Wolverine
High Tier:
Akuma
C. Viper
Doctor Doom
Dormammu
She-Hulk
Taskmaster
Trish
Tron
Zero
Mid Tier:
Deadpool
Felicia
M.O.D.O.K.
Ryu
Sentinel
Spencer
Spiderman
Storm
Thor
X-23
Low Tier:
Chris
Chun-Li
Haggar
Hulk
Ironman
Jill
Morrigan
Shuma-Gorath
Super-Skrull
Bottom Tier:
Arthur
Captain America
Hsien-Ko
Viewtiful Joe
I understand all that but a lot of Viper right now is more theory. I am more “what currently works” kind of guy. 10-0 matchups with robot execution is a tad silly. I understand what you are saying isn’t that people will reach that level, more so just humans over time will try and get as close to a 10-0 matchup as they can executionally.
Still there is a big difference between what bots can do and what is humanly possible. Marlinpie and yourself definately have shown that Viper can contend with the whole cast, what is even scarier, is that Viper is one of those characters with nothing but upside and room to grow unlike a lot of the better characters like Magneto and Wesker. She is sort of like Russel Westbrook when he started his career in OKC. Drafted as a really raw athletic good sized kid with a ton of upside. First 2 years we saw he could hang with the best PG’s in the NBA and even saw these really scary glimpses of him just dominating… even looking better at times than a lot of the best PG’s out there.
The thing about people like Wolverine and Wesker and Magneto is that their stuff is just so solid and that you know exactly what they are going to do and you can’t stop it. I haven’t seen that 100% yet from Viper. i just think Tri jumping and teleporting + assist is just more effective and will stay that way.
Just like Russel Westbrook, she has unlimited potential, but I just don’t think she will reach that point (pending patches new versions what not). No matter how much better RW gets, I don’t think he will ever be as good as Derrick Rose… like Viper is to Magneto/Wesker/Dante. This probably isn’t the best place for sports references but it was the only thing I could really think of lol.
You still are my inspiration for picking up Viper Chrisis. Your theory talk is so deep and interesting.
Try out seismic hammer, it’s better than disruptor but harder to use.
As for saying the damage is far fetched, beginning of the match no x-factor me in tournament killing Taskmaster off of Viper’s lowest gauge building and damage building starter (Air A plus arrows).
Part 2 7:27 does over 1,100,000 and as stated happens at the very beginning of the match.
I choked badly since for some reason learning Dante is making me do stupid things with Viper instead of just playing Viper Dog like I used to, me and Dacid have habits of OCVing each other often. XD
Saying her damage is low is just bad, if she touches a character and has good execution they die, if she makes a character block and she has godlike execution they die.
I’m a low execution player and I can still do 1,100,000, I know combos that would have built 3 gauges and killed there, but I don’t have execution for them yet.
The next best friends forever characters, I feel will be Spider-man/Hulk or Thor/Modok, granted if anyone wants to put in work for them. My Chris/Arthur mesh well enough but not as much a Wolvy/Akuma.
She-Hulk/Tron
Maybe this is just wish full thinking, and i’m sure it sounds silly to some of you but I predict Viper will be top teir in the next MvC3. Why? you can bet that Mag, Wesker, Phoenix, Wolvie maybe even Dante and Ammy are all getting hit with the nerf bat, the’re all really solid characters but way too many people are crying about them being OP. The thing with C.Viper, while she has plenty of tools, she still has not been fully explored and like NissanZaxima said she has nowhere to go but up, come re-balance time C.Viper will fly under the radar and maybe recieve a few buffs to her normals, but doubt Capcom will nerf her, I could be wrong though.
A good example of this happening is SSF4 AE FeiLong. He started out average, got some buffs in super became middle-upper tier. He didn’t get anything really in AE, his H. kick chicken wing got nerfed and he received a few buffs to his normals but his bad match-ups all got nerfed … Fei Long was never a bad character but him not receiving nerfs while most of the cast got damage reductions all around made more powerful in that sense
@NissanZaxima: As stated doing Viper’s real mix up is harder than executing her combos, but in the few times I do have training mode I’ve tested and it’s faster than Mags, in some cases significantly. It’s just his normals are all great so tri-jump A takes no effort, for Viper getting the correct timing to hit Viperball C BKF ADD A takes a lot of effort.
this.
If you watch closely enough, you’ll see that there was a reset after the Tasky arrows>j.l and the combo was effectively started from C.H, so not really the lowest damage building starter.
This is still very good damage but still nothing ground breaking if you ask me. 3 meters and all assists were used to deal 1.1m. You could get the same result by landing a C.L with Dante/Mags.
Her meter builds real fast though.
Like I said before, I think Viper is really good but I’m pretty sure you’re overrating her.
And if Seismo was better than disruptor, we would know lol.