MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
3041

loyal sol you missed out at that tourney this weekend. anyway i’m just dropping by for a random video that doesn’t relate to what anybody has talked about in years (this threads version of years anyway)

for all the people whining about the cap infinite being removed - as we’ve said time and again cap does awesome damage without the infinite so here you go.

[media=youtube]ZjfJDPSu-aw[/media]

note no. i am not saying captain is good. in fact, i think that without assists he is easily the worst character in the game by a HUGE ENORMOUS margin, even with x factor level 3 and a full 5 meters, if you’re left alone with cap you’re done. On the same note I’d also like to say that captain is actually a lot better than most people think, meaning he’s alright and potentially low mid tier. This game is crazy - solid characters are everywhere but they’re “bad” because of how good the good characters are LOL

3042

No, it really is almost undoubtedly so, its got a ton on I-frames and it goes out fast and pretty much full screen. I’d want Bionic arm way over Shink-Hadoken to punish anything really, but thats only if I knew I would get the hit.

But what does make it bad, is that if the point character blocks it and XFC is gone, or if you don’t have the meter then Spencer gets killed. Its getting flack because any situation where you need two bars needs to be well worth it, doing a boatload of damage to an assist if not outright killing them is a good deal, nearly killing your Spencer isn’t, and at the cost of two bars, unless it kills them it isn’t either.

Now Bionic Arm into Hailstorm (Storm) or Mystic Ray (Shuma-G) (Two of the only full screen OTG super’s full DHC capable) that is where the money is at. Moreso in Storm cause its safe chip, Shuma’s is just the one you should use because despite being unsafe if blocked, his Mystic ray should hit everything in his path, including something that slid behind the point character like an assist.

I think that one of the reasons Spencer Storm can work out so well (Unfortunately they aren’t DHC glitch capable.) Esp with a Zero or something to take advantage of either one of them, though his placement should be second in the lineup Marn style.

Speaking of Shuma, is he DHC glitch capable with his Chaos Dimension, or is the first hit enough to take him out of that discussion?

Pretty sure they’re just bad, or at the least mediocre.

Cap, Thor, Joe, Spidey, Ryu. The game is balanced enough so that they’re all competitive regardless but bad is just bad. Every Capcom game has had it, but in the same way that T. Hawk could put in work, or Q, or SSF4 Gen, they still suck compared to others for one or two glaring reasons. Not trying to say anything foul, but it is the truth.

Spidey… maybe he can get away with not being there, but your so dead if you drop anything with him. Its not even an execution issue he’ll just die because you missed something along the way and hit Maximum Spider.

3043

Pretty sure that just makes them bad :stuck_out_tongue:

Off topic, but whats up gimpy? I grew up on your bowser vids, shame I’m not in a position to see you rock that low tier in MVC3 but I’m willing to bet its pretty beastly

3044

Spidey is not bad enough to be put into the same sentence as Joe and Ryu… not even close. At this point in time I’d say he’s still a candidate for high tier. There is no way he’ll be top tier ever, but high tier maybe.

Execution is not a factor when you tier a character and his stuff isn’t that hard anyways. If you use Wesker OTG assist Spidey can do about 750k easily for one bar. His overhead mixups are craaaazy between his air dash, web zip and instant overhead web swings. His lows aren’t especially good but he still has a rapid fire c.L and a c.H with great reach. Web throw is still barely explored but could be really good… ultimate web throw resets… etc.

But he can’t OTG for himself… at all, ever, with any move. And he needs assists to combo from all of his throws.

3045

yeah. this. people gettin too carried away trying to tier characters when this is mahvel baby.
we should be spending more time talking about teams.

3046

Spidey does good damage, like way better than most especially if you have an otg assist that gets you webthrow into reset into ultimate webthrow, or double web throw into tk super for almost 1million damage. I mean spidey does mean amounts of damage, but his normals are pretty bad overall. Cr.short is okay, but not perfect and his flight jump is sometimes not a good thing for him. Web zip and web swing are both great tools, but, those almost make him predicitable in his approach. I would say that with the right team spidey could be high mid based on damage potential alone, I guess if you can do the webthrow infinite maybe even higher since if you could do it you could set it up from pretty far from the corner with the right assists…

I don’t know, the bad normals with weird hitboxes seem to be his biggest deal imo, you really need to have a team with an otg assist and a good lockdown assist to make him viable, but I feel like that is typical to most of the mid tier.

3047

his normals just increase his execution requirements a little bit more. his s.M is his only normal that sees really bad to me… c.L reach isn’t good, but that is why you have to learn how to wavedash in after landing jump ins. c.M is a great anti-air but you do better leaving it out of combos whenever your spacing is not guaranteed. c.H is mega unsafe but has good reach… you should always be canceling it into a web swing anyway.

but that’s why people should spend more time talking about strong teams. Spidey/Wesker/Akuma is a strong team with a good anchor, good combo possibilities, good DHC chemistry and comboable throws all around. Spidey/Hulk/Sentinel is a team with a decent anchor and great DHCs, but then Spidey loses his ability to combo from throws and he can’t cover Sentinel all that well. No more unblockables either. Spidey on the first team seems high tier. On the second team… not so much.

3048

I wasn’t taking DHC into account… good point.

3049

Well, thats what I meant though its not that he deserves to be in the same sentence, its his one big old glaring flaw the “I can’t OTG… ever” crowd, and he is one of maybe… what three maybe less than five characters that don’t have a single move or super with OTG properties.

According to the Brady Games Bible: Spiderman, Trish, Chun-Li, and Captain America. All four are the only characters in the game who have no DHC super, DHC normal, DHC divekick, or DHC special move no matter what. Ironically, they are all up and down in how good most people would say they are. Cap not being good, Chun-Li a bit better, Spider actually not half bad, and Trish is pretty damn good.

The execution drop at times is more of a personal one, but being incredibly unsafe on every super that you do is hardly a plus. But it is the one glaring flaw that makes spider man go from relatively good, to alot less so. He is easily the best out of that group, I’ll say that for sure, but its still not much of a plus. I think you see what I was getting at though.

But that comes after tiers, at least from a theoretical,

First you understand the characters, then you tier them.
Then you understand the assists and their properties, and you tier them.
Then you combine all the information together, test it out and tier them.

Right now there is alot of different ideas and different players, and we’ve got to sit down and ask, what team would be better with x instead of x. Right now you are using say… Storm/Spider/Doom.

Is there a better battery then Storm? Yes, Magneto.
What about rushdown? Ammy, and Viper.
What if you want a more solid approach? Dante, Taskmaster.
Is there a better DHC glitch partner then Spidey? Yes, Wesker.
Is there a better rushdown/striking style character then Spidey? Yep, Wesker again.
Is there a best assist for Storm with Doom? Yep, beam.
But what if you like to dash crossup? Then Rocks.
Etc.

Perhaps this is just my point of view, and I am a relatively better thinker then a fighter, but just from watching matches with experience, I like to just look at the facts and possibilities here first and then look at practical applications second.

But hell with CEO right around the corner, I’m looking to get as much data as possible.

3050

But then you are finding the best characters in the whole game, thats only a bit of the story, sure their are better characters that do stuff then spidey, but I think a better questoin is, I want to play spidey, whats the best spidey team, where should I put spidey in my team.

This is especially good for characters with less than optimal assists like spidey.

Or characters whose only good thing is their assist like hsien-ko.

Its these kind of questions that talking about these characters should be answering. I mean Im sure we could all list off at list 2 or 3 teams that are probably in contention for best in the game.

Mag Wolverine Sentinel
Wesker, Sentinel, Phoenix.

I mean unitl more stuff is known I think we all know who some of the best characters are, but the is game balanced enough we should be able to find the best teams for some of the mid and low tier characters.

Ive been doing that with thor for instance - Thor needs first a good assist to get in and that can lockdown a bit, then an otg assist. But overall I think you could sacrifice that for a good dhc glitch team so like alot of dhc glitch characters maybe the best overall team is like
Mag Thor Sent
Though I think dhc wise Storm Thor Sent may just edge it out a little bit.

3051

the whole debate needs to have execution separated from it entirely. There is no upper ceiling on what people can accomplish in a game… the only character I’ve ever seen who was actually too hard for anyone to play was MvC2 Dhalsim and even in that case I believe that if he had been the best character in the game people would have learned how to do his stuff. But there were other characters who were both better and easier to play, so nobody ever did.

I can see how Spidey’s supers can be criticized… being horribly unsafe on block isn’t a factor when it comes to combos, but it is relevant when it comes to throwing the supers out there in response to other things (ie. somebody whiffs something so you try to Maximum Spider to punish it. If it was safe on block or put you full screen it’d be a good gamble, but since it is not only horribly unsafe but tracks so that you end up right next to the other guy, it negatively affects how you will use the super).

Hmm I still think team cohesiveness counts for more than the individual pieces. With the way MvC3 has been put together, most of the top tier characters can do whatever they want so putting together a strong team is easy. But, I believe there are characters in the game who are currently slept on that are better at one particular thing than the top tiers while not having as complete of game plans. Once the technology is there, a team built around one of these specialty characters might end up being more effective than a team that relies on the natural synergy of all top tier chars.

3052

To Dogma: I completely understand your point and I do agree with you to an extent.

But what do you start off as? You start off with a team. Your teammates can make up for your characters flaws. And once the flaws are covered… your character isn’t low tier anymore.

Since we’re talking about Spidey, let’s take him. His two biggest flaws are:

#1 he has no OTG whatsoever
#2 Worst collection of assists in the game.

These things drop him in tiers, right? He’s nowhere near as good a rushdown character as Viper or Magneto.

But suppose we overcome these two weaknesses. It’s as simple as…

#1 He has no OTG whatsoever
Solution: Give him the BEST OTG in the game AKA Samurai Edge.

Now his damage goes WAY up, his reset game goes WAY up and you can even get UWT into play.

#2 His assists blow
Solution: Put him on point

Now what do you have? He becomes one of the more mobile, hard-hitting, rushdown characters in the game.

This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:

Spiderman+Wesker gun assist. This is a high tier combo. The sum of them is far better than the one character alone.

3053

Spiderman + Skrull also works for an otg assist, you just have to do a shorter combo. But from midscreen with Spiderman skrull I can get 946,000 for 1 meter or go for an ultimate webthrow reset and probably kill most characters.

3054

Let’s start over because I apologize that I wasn’t exactly tactful in my previous responses mainly because I was so vehemently in disagreement with pretty much all of it.

But this is my main problem with most of your posts in this thread. I think that your position is too extreme without play behind it. For example, let’s take your comments about Spencer having difficulty against pressure because of his slow normals. If you played him, you’d realize, most people pressure by covering an assist with an attack. The assist in turn covers their attack for them by nature of the assist. You’re rarely doing either out of a vacuum. Spencer’s Bionic Arm just makes the risk rewards of that so much harder. Secondly, his slow normals don’t really hurt him because the hitbox on them are very generous (hence my point about priority), he’s not about out poking someone as much as anything off his easy hit confirms leads to very damaging combos and his overhead is actually difficult to react to. Keep in mind, I NEVER said this made him a top tier character. In fact if you checked my earlier post, I had Spencer at C Tier. (http://shoryuken.com/f340/actual-balance-potential-tiers-discussion-268608/index73.html#post10495364 ) I think it’s certainly possible to be knowledgeable about a game without being good at it’s execution (I think I’m actually an example of that) but to be knowledgeable you still need to play

3055

I would attempt to do this but there’s way too many teams ATM. Even the “standard” ones have variations.

Wolvie:
Wolvie/Storm/Akuma
Wolvie/Sent/Akuma
Wolvie/Wesker/Akuma

She-Hulk:
She-Hulk/Ammy/Tron
She-Hulk/Tasky/Tron
She-Hulk/Tasky/Spencer

Phoenix:
Wesker/Doom/Phoenix
Wesker/Ironman/Phoenix
Ammy/Doom/Phoenix

3056

Kinda agree here, but it’s still a shame he doesn’t seem to DHC well with anyone except Zero. Guess he has to have his limits. But still, I hate Zero so I really don’t want to play him. Hmm, Spiderman/blank/Wesker… ? Doom Sphere DHC’s okay I guess, and it’d be pretty boss to have Spidey + missiles/rocks/beam.

If I could find the video where someone managed to DHC Maximum Spider into Deadpool’s Cutting Time I’d post it. I really want to know how to get that to work. Spidey/pool DHC + OTG Katanarama assist would be some great synergy.

3057

Maximum spider sets up DHC glitch DHC into cutting time whiffed then OTG with Katana rama works with a lot of DHC glitches like X-23

3058

Maximum spider doesnt start the dhc trick

3059

In the thread it says spin but no reset which should still allow deadpool to follow up…

3060

Viper’s burst time works just like Zero’s Hyper for DHC into from MS but it does way more damage. She also has an OTG assist for Spidey so I’d say she is one of the best characters to pair him with. Spiderman can DHC into both MS and Crawler Assault off of a Burst Time too so it works both ways.