From the videos I’ve posted so far, anyone have any advice on how to improve, other than using stuff that my out of date hardware can’t bother with?
really in srk forum? smh…
For shits and giggles, I decided to nab Mugen and put in a bunch of overpowered boss characters, then did survival mode as Gill’s Third Strike form.
I then proceeded to body 98’ Omega Rugal, CVS2 Ult. Rugal, God Orochi, Omega Goenitz, Violent Ken, Evil Ryu from CVS2, Dio, Shao Khan, Krizalid, Goro, and Magaki without breaking a sweat… Justice from Guilty gear and Igniz, however, beat my ass. (Igniz because he can’t be mixed up at all, and his AI cheats like a bitch, and Jutice because lolshoopdawoopspam.)
Gill: Making other cheap bosses look free, since 1997.
(I would have recorded all this, but I played this on my netbook, so you can imagine how much of a pain it was just to get the game to run. Maybe If my desktop gets fixed I’ll record a session.)
I just sat through the entire thing. The podcast was just terrible (Production-wise and topic-wise) and you can tell how the broadcasters are extremely uninformed when it comes to certain topics (For instance, you can actually have multiple planes thanks to a hidden attribute found in the stages’ coding, their lack of knowledge on the 3D field is also pretty disappointing), finally I found Sol Badguy Z’s cursing to be extremely tasteless and it only makes him sound/look like some kind of angry edgy teenager.
Other than that, said podcast has no place here.
I just want to say that such statements as:
"To think, somebody got 100 mofo’s to play Dive Kick seriously at UFGT and yet Mugen is for scrubs. The Fighting game community has really gone to shit man"
And:
“To get so much “hype” and support for a parody fighting game seems so motherfucking counterproductive. To think where we’d be at right now with the Mugen/Fighter Maker engines if people were willing to support those with that kind of money.”
Are quite possibly some of the dumbest and ignorant things I’ve heard in some time. People support Divekick because it’s a good game first and a parody second. There’s nothing counter productive about supporting members of the community who make quality.
I, for one, will never support a MUGEN game simply because the engine is garbage and makes everything associated with it feel cheap and terrible. People can have fun making games in it all they want, but you should realize by now that people who play fighters seriously don’t generally like MUGEN. There’s a reason for it.
If you’re talking about the conversation regarding multiple players up to 4 on 4, then where did we say it wasn’t possible? Where did we even hint at that? Are we supposed to be experts?
We’re not developers, genius. And it wasn’t my idea to bring it up. This was a spur of the moment thing that he brought up randomly on the show.
You offended? Good. Means you should’ve listened to the part about maturity. No one’s expected to behave by your expectations and if you try to impose anyway, YOU’RE the asshole. Besides, I dislike my own cursing, not because of how it makes me look to others, but because I rely on it far too much. I’m working on it, so kiss off.
And who are you again? That’s right, no one.
Well, at the very least, thanks for your opinion on the show. Even if I don’t sound welcoming of your statements, I appreciate those who take the time to comment, like or dislike.
…And despite my being appreciative of other people’s statements, I do dislike having to address really dumb fucking comments.
People dislike MUGEN for many reasons, none of them really fully respectable:
- I play fighting games, I don’t make or want to be involved in making them (Oh, you mean you’re too lazy to learn scripting, I hear you
) - The community is a piece of shit (I agree, but what stops you from enjoying the engine? :\ )
- People release broke ass hyper super duper characters all the time (So why don’t you help make some standard characters)
- Tired of seeing millions of kens and ryus. (Refer to retorts made to 3 and 1)
- The engine is limited. (Says who? You? Time and time again coders have proved that wrong and made some extremely accurate characters. GM has perfectly reproduced almost all of the Street Fighter 3 Third Strike characters, despite everyone saying that making a two sided character like Gill would be impossible. What say you now?)
)My problem with Divekick is that it is essentially is, and embodies the same mentality, as that of what most competitive fighting gamers consider to be Mugen. 1 hit kill characters, half assed coding, lazy spriting, parody fighting. All of the things that competitive gamers consider to be scrubby, and associate with Mugen games, yet they support it. Ass backwards. Counterproductive towards your credibility. Shoot your foot and stick it in your mouth. You’d basically be making a hypocrite and a dumbass out of yourself to like Divekick and then bash Mugen. Not to say that Divekick isn’t worth liking - hell, I like it myself, nothing’s wrong with it - but you can’t support one thing and then shun what you consider to be a similar product.
EDIT: I mean, it really says some bad shit about the fighting game community as a whole that we can sit back and wait 10 years for a sequel to games like Marvel Vs Capcom 2, only to complain about stuff like X-factor the moment it comes out, when we had the means to actually make Marvel Vs Capcom 3 ourselves the entire time, and in less than 1 year if it’s a combined project. Capcom vs SNK 3 could’ve been out by now. The Mugen engine and the actual limitations it has (stage zooming, unnecessary cosmetic stuff) could’ve been updated 30 times by now to a “far superior” product. There really isn’t an arguement against supporting it.
I don’t know if you’ve ever played 3S, but perfectly is being overly generous. I sat down with Ken for 10 minutes and that is not perfect. His backdash is trash and he can’t buffer dash from cr.LK like he can in 3S. But really that’s all besides the point.
I like how you basically assume what my problems are and don’t even get close to why I don’t like MUGEN. The community is horrible yes, but I never even mentioned them. I said the engine is garbage. Go ahead and look at the post again if you don’t believe me. I also didn’t say limited. There’s a lot of stuff you can do with MUGEN, it’s very open, but it still feels like shit. Movement feels rigid, hitstun either doesn’t feel like it exists or is way over done, mechanics feel like a hacked in addition (because they are), buffer windows are ridiculous, it’s a bad engine and it makes games feel bad.
YOU consider it a similar product, and for very superficial reasons at that. I don’t think the two are anything alike. I don’t care about overpowered rehash characters or a clone army. If it was fun it wouldn’t matter, but MUGEN feels like shit. There’s a reason why no one has ever struck it big time with a MUGEN engine, and it’s not because they don’t have funding. People make games on no budget all the time and they don’t suck. Minecraft was a project done in the spare time of one guy by himself with no money. Making an engine specifically for the game and system you’re designing adds a lot of quality to your work.
Here’s the funny part… “Who’s” 3rd Strike Ken did you play? 
I said “people” say these things about mugen.
So I can safely assume that you programed for it, correct? You’d then know that you can make buffer windows as strict or generous as you like. You can make the controls as responsive as you like. You also do realize that mugen runs differently from computer to computer as well, and it also controls differently depending on the controllers you’re using to play with it too, right? I use a super dual box to play it with my playstation 2 pad. What do you use? 
Oh, I’m pretty sure you can have some deep, psychological gameplay in Divekick with those one hit kills. Those same arguments hold true for MUGEN, or any game or game engine at that. That’s anything BUT superficial. Please think out your arguments before you make them.
Yeah, it’s for the reasons that I MYSELF stated. You can put as much faith into people as you like, but when it comes down to it, the general rule is chaos - that meaning the dumbest possible excuse is usually the reason why people don’t bother with stuff. It’s the same with Guilty Gear Isuka. While the 4 player action might detract from the competitive portion from it, the overall majority of people who dislike the game will tell you ONE reason they dislike it - the fucking turn button. This is stupid mainly because of the competitive gamer’s policy usually being “deal with it”, yet finding it agreeable that “not dealing” with the turn button is completely okay.
THe point was that if money were pouring into MUGEN, it would be vastly better than it is now. :\
Not guaranteed. :\ Professionally made games that suck can tell you something way different.
You said GM. I downloaded GM’s Ken. I also downloaded his Akuma as well. Not to say that they aren’t valiant efforts, they just aren’t perfect.
Which has nothing to do with me or what I said.
If you want to go with the argument that you can make everything how you want it, then I would have to make a much more insulting remark and say that the people who create characters for MUGEN aren’t very good at it. I find it hard to believe that from everyone who makes characters for MUGEN, not a single person has been able to make something that doesn’t FEEL like a MUGEN game. It’s much more believable to assume it’s the engine.
Also, if MUGEN can run differently from computer to computer and control type (I certainly hope you’re talking about how the actual program runs and not just framerate, because that means less than nothing), why would anyone who CARED about what they were making use such an inconsistent engine?
I thought my arguments through. You’re actively ignoring them. I never said anything about the strategic value of MUGEN, I’m talking about how the engine itself performs and how it makes games feel in terms of movement, hitstop, buffering, and cancelling. Divekick gets away with a lot of these issues because the game doesn’t deal with 3/4ths of what I listed, however that doesn’t stop it from being a good game that accomplishes what it’s trying to do. MUGEN is trying to be a fighting game engine and is failing at it.
Once again, actively ignoring my arguments. You know why people don’t like the turn button? Because it’s a terrible idea. It’s not intuitive and it feels like shit. People knew it wasn’t a good idea so they didn’t play Isuka. It didn’t help that Isuka was a broken mess that feels like it was slapped together in a weekend from the XX engine. Here’s a question, in a game where you have directional movements such as left and right, why do you need a turn button? If you wanted a party game, why preserve the complex input system from GG that would be extremely clunky and awful with that many people on screen? This is why Super Smash Bros. was successful and Isuka wasn’t. Poor design choices, which is the same reason MUGEN hasn’t ever hit it big.
Why would you pour money into something that has for YEARS proven itself to be bad? If MUGEN was a new thing that had some potential, sure, I could get that, but MUGEN came out in what, 2000? And in 12 years NO ONE has managed to do ANYTHING with it? NOTHING that shows even the slightest amount of worthwhile content? Probably the only thing I have ever seen come from MUGEN that didn’t look like crap is Card Sagas Wars, and there’s been nothing from that project in a long ass time. Even if the guy is still working on it, who’s to say it’s not going to have the same problems that exist in pretty much all MUGEN games? It might be a fun distraction, but it’s probably not going to go anywhere seriously.
At this point I don’t think anyone could justify supporting MUGEN financially. You’d be better off putting your effort into more worthwhile endeavors.
The difference being that SOME professionally made games suck while pretty much all MUGEN games suck. MUGEN has never had a Super Turbo or a Marvel 2 or a CvS2 or anything. The closest it has gotten to the level of those games is trying to emulate those games, unsuccessfully at that. I would rather take my chances with a professionally made retail game made on its own engine than a MUGEN game, which is probably going to be free anyways.
Well, without rereading anything I’ve said, if I said “perfect”, let me make the correction “damn near perfect”. You complained about some stupid shit that you could fix yourself in the cns file.
Because you’re not bothering to think about how what I said applies to anything. If you did, gasp, you’d realize you don’t have a leg to stand on as far as your stance goes with MUGEN.
Or that your computer is shit, and thus affects the engine. Just like mine did back when I had a shitty compaq presario that wasn’t adjusted to play it, and caused characters to jump off the screen every once in a blue moon until they attacked.
Don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I guess it’s also safe for me to assume that you think I’m just some MUGEN nerd who doesn’t play standard fighting games and have not a competitive bone in my body. As if I don’t attempt to spot the differences between the MUGEN made character, and the official game. Well too bad for you that I actually do, and every problem I’ve spotted wrong with every character has something to do with the way the coder designed them. How assinine the idea that shit should feel exactly like the game when MUGEN wasn’t even designed to emulate them - it’s completely up to the coder to make things work correctly.
You seem not to be one to accept that “all things degenerate towards chaos” - read as, people and or their sensibilities are normally the problem
Now if I was to continue typing and not address this, you’d totally pretend that I didn’t try to in any of the above statements.
I just proved that I wasn’t.
I never implied that you did. You said that my complaints with Divekick were superficial. I replied that you could get some psyche shit going in it just fine, and that that would be more than just surface value.
Every single thing, manageable. Now I could take this a step further and explain how the competitive fighting game community are to blame for not getting every single value there is for characters to be converted to mugen, but I won’t. For example, common mugen coder mistake - Sol’s gunflame shouldn’t fully connect from a sweep into a launch combo for half life damage. This is because the coder didn’t realize that in every Guilty Gear game after X, there’s a deliberately imposed delay on the way gunflame cancels from certain attacks. Sweep > gunflame has the largest delay where as slash > gunflame has a pretty quick transition.
Divekick gets away with NOTHING. You’re excusing it just because you like it. It’s guilty of every crime Mugen has ever been accused of, yet others are trying to let that slide. Well fuck that. It can be as fun and good a game as it wants, but by that same token, LOGICALLY, you’re complimenting Mugen, like it or not. You’ve already proven you can’t code, nor are aware that a shitty computer can make the program, omg, run shitty. I bet you’re not even aware of the fact that certain controllers lag when dealing with certain programs, as not all are perfectly compatible. I’ve tried using my Xbox pad with Streets of Rage Remake… Guess what? It DIDN’T FUCKING WORK. It’s up to you to make sure you’re doing things correctly with PC programs to get the maximum efficiency out of them.
Make some good arguments.
Yet playing a game that gives you 20 - 40 frames of invincibility due to a glitch is a good idea, rather than banning it outright? There’s tons of bad ideas out there yet people are still playing those games while ignoring others for the same reasons.
You’ve effectively argued that getting used to things in a fighting game is not worth your time. Congratulations. God only knows how you’ve reached this point if stuff like Turn buttons bother you.
Scrubs, the lot of them
Broken? There’s no videos showcasing broken stuff to even fucking reference :\
You keep talking about how things “feel”, as subjective as that is,
To not have to change the entire game mechanics around just so that lazy motherfuckers could find something else to complain about. To differentiate itself from smash brothers, and show that 4 player games can actually still be labeled a fighter, and be competitive in said way.
Maybe because “party game” was exactly the label they were attempting to avoid. Besides, no one ever complains about how crazy shit looks in marvel games without being labeled a scrub. :\
To think that is to be horribly misguided and that totally ignores MANY elements at play. Such elements as, smash bros not necessarily appealing to fighting gamers, nintendo’s huge fanbase, Guilty Gear having significantly smaller fan base, the fact that Guilty Gear has branched off into other types of game genres and failed at those too (Oh, but at least the Turn button was gone), and the fact that the fighting game community is rather finicky and or fickle.
Addressing this in 3…2…
One could argue the same about rpgmaker, fighter maker, and other such programs. You might as well say the same about every freeware “maker” engine out there. I’ve seen almost nothing "free’ worth my time being made with free game engines FOR MY ENTIRE EXISTENCE. GEE, I WONDER WHY? Maybe it has something to do with mofo’s being lazy as hell, not willing to contribute to anything. Your’s isn’t even the official reason why people shun the engine. If not any reason I mentioned, then it’s some wavelength that the community expects everyone to automatically come to when it comes to stuff like mugen (and “wavelengths” like that do exist, see anime fighter in the thread “fighting game terminology”).
When you come up with a non subjective, non bullshit reason that can be correctly applied to Mugen, I might agree with you. Otherwise, fix it, get used to these “FEELINGS” you have, and get over it.
Lol, you’d rather spend your money on namebrand shit despite it’s quality, rather than take your chances with something free. Absolutely unacceptable logic. And when I mentioned standard games made with their own engines that suck, I meant any video game, not a fighter, and there’s been plenty of fuck ups in that genre. Making your own engine doesn’t guaranty that you’re going to make a good game, or even a decently designed game. That was the point, period.
And I like how Wild Tengu went and liked your comment, as if a show of support for your statement. “I second this!” even. Tengu…Dude, you got raped by someone you considered a Mugen scrub, on a live youtube broadcast. And guess what, that “scrub” believes that Mugen only helped him get better, not worse, at fighting games. Think about that next time you say mugen’s controls suck, when it is indeed you, who sucks at being able to transition from mugen back to a standard fighting game.
Yeah, because that’s a brilliant idea to suggest.
Vanguard Princess.
Alright alright alright guys, shake your dicks, this pissing contest is over. Sol Badguy Z, I’m sure you don’t want this thread locked for turning into a flame war.
So to sum up that last post, instead of talking about the points I brought up, Sol Badguy Z would rather bring up irrelevant shit that has nothing to do with what I was talking about in an attempt to strawman my arguments and change the subject, putting words in my mouth, saying I’m wrong because he doesn’t agree with me, and general ad hominem. You’re really doing a great job defending MUGEN. When I said 3S Ken didn’t play like Ken he assumed I had the wrong Ken, when I made comments about the movement, hitstop, and buffering he assumes I’m talking about the strategic value of MUGEN, when I say no one has made anything in MUGEN that didn’t feel like it was made in MUGEN he assumes I think he only plays MUGEN, and I think probably the best point is when I say MUGEN is riddled with bad ideas and that’s why people don’t play MUGEN, he tries to act like the community is fickle and MUGEN isn’t to blame for MUGEN being shitty.
News flash, people don’t like shitty engines. Not once ever did I mention anything about characters being broken or glitches in MUGEN, yet you still felt the need to bring it up as if it has any relevance to what ***I ***said. I don’t care what you heard from someone else, you were talking to me, and all you’ve managed to do this entire discussion is talk about things other people have said to you. Other games with bugs and glitches have survived because people enjoyed the engine and how the game was coded, there’s an inherent game feel that IS subjective, but is still a point of discussion and why you can say you don’t like something. And if MUGEN can’t run properly on my i7 3770 @3.4 GHz, 16 GB DDR3 1600 RAM, GTX 560 Ti 1 GB DDR5 rig, then it is most definitely a piece of shit engine that isn’t worth anyone’s time.
Well, there isn’t a flame war going on. Flames are insults, and we’re not doing much of that. Not to mention, I don’t understand the idea behind locking a thread anyway. What’s that supposed to do, stop arguments? Gonna lock every thread where arguments occur? Why isn’t the scrubquotes thread not locked then? It’s a thread dedicated to stirring up trouble.
It’s not like i"m not attempting to discuss things with him, but the guy’s pretending I’m not adressing his points at all, and it’s getting a little frustrating. I guess unless I say “nuh uh” to everything he says, I’m clearly not correctly retorting. For a moment I almost considered making a common sense and intuition free rebuttal to Johnnygrimm as to get it into his head, but after that last reply, I’ve determined he’s obviously trolling. He cannot be that dumb, even if “degeneration towards chaos/murphy’s law” would imply so. So if he’s truly confused, or baffled by my statements, stay that way. Mugen’s better off without him.
johnGrimm Gm’s character are the closest you can find and the wonder of mugen is that you can adjust everything. so the back dash can be tweaked.but lets keep the thread free of fire and flames.
lets stay peaceful.
i want to do a large gaming project anyone down?
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crazy 3rd strike
That was absolutely uncalled for but uh, okay. Keep it classy.
If you say so.
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I don’t need mugen or fighter maker 2k2 to work on fighting game engine and it’s great working with limitations which those engines get rid of, but when some one says an engine is bad hasn’t messed with a Capcom game.
I’d like to state first that any impressions you have of SBZ does not reflect the MUGEN community at large today (which is apparently still gets mistaken a lot for). It would be wise to not engage in any arguments with him.
Secondly, I feel like the general statements people may have about the engine are too vague - it’s not as if MUGEN has a default “feel” thats hardcoded to its engine (there is, actually a file which lays down the foundations of the absolute basics - the common1.cns). Absolutely anything about a character can be customized, from basic properties such as damage to more obscure values like velocities. As an example, the most accurate conversions around was always KOF characters. Coders (or the good ones, in my experience) spend a lot of time researching obscure data about their source materials before designing them. Other people more knowledgeable than me can explain it better.
Finally, that part about people who play fighters seriously… that just can’t apply to all of them, can it? I know more than a handful that are comfortable residing in both spheres, so to speak. It’s not a binary thing. People do go to tournaments and dabble with MUGEN on the side.