he’s not talking about words given to us from capcom, especially since capcom isn’t the only fighting game dev. he is talking about how the terms we use created by the community are mostly universal throughout every single game whereas a lot of people who never touched a fighting game in their lives decided to ‘really get into’ smash and made up their own terms
but sure okay i’ll just go back to dante link ninja x canceling in street fighter
The Smash bashing needs to stop. Yes the advanced techniques don’t take long to learn, but that is true in other fighters as well (except the Vampire series)
I don’t play Smash competitively, but I can see how deep it is. The mind games, charactervscharacter nuances, and stage specific shenanigans are hilarious. Even if the developers didn’t intend it, there is a ton of depth in that game.
You can’t compete vs a veteran if you don’t play that game at all. You’ll get destroyed. Turning items on will yield the same outcome, so don’t bother bringing that up please.
Knowing how to wave dash isn’t some mystical, magical technique that will suddenly enable you to compete with the best either. The fact that they can read and destroy you in seconds is the bigger hurdle.
Melee is legit, and doesn’t deserve all the hate it gets. Don’t write off the whole game just because of a few uneducated fools who come to this board and spew all over it. SynikaL is very knowledgeable when it comes to Melee. No one can doubt this.
Anyway, on topic, I have to nominate VF and Vampire as the most difficult/skill based games to play. VF just because of all the ridiculous mind games and some difficult execution requirements for a few characters. Vampire because to even play that game you need to be able to pushblock consistently (or get mauled, everytime), characters have exploits they need to even be viable (Demitri) and a lot of characters better combos are very difficult links (Bulleta) Sako a.k.a. Crazy Bulleta just can’t be human.
No shit, dummy. My post addresses how that phenomenon came about. Ultimately, it’s quite meaningless, petty and pathetic that anyone would hold a grudge against a bunch of kids for (unintentionally) wanting to buck arbitrary conventions - it’s not like Smash is a conventional fighter to begin with.
It’s only logical that a group of people outside the orthodox fighting game scene would initiate the Smash competitive scene - those were the people open-minded enough to look at the game objectively (Let’s ignore the fact that other fighting game community sectors contributed to the scene: Empire Arcadia being most notable).
Seriously, some of you must be 15 years-old with some of the statements you’re proposing.
“You named stuff different from how we named stuff! That proves that ain’t no fightin’ games! Duuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrr!”
yeah, well you must be a 15 year-old because you play smash! haha. name the big mechanical difference between “smash” and “fighting games”
the more advanced character designs in ggac rival its only logical competitor, mvc2… being able
to control independent elements with a variety of outcomes is a minimum… characters like eddie, venom, bridget, testament etc blow any other character design (or team) out of the water… even when playing a simple character the frame advantages and ranges are constantly shifting due to a variety of options in offense and defense… character wakeup times and options on the ground are character specific… body weights, hitboxes etc make combos, resets, traps etc character specific… if you guess wrong and have to block a chain of attacks, you can regular block, instant block, faultless defense, blue or gold burst or dead angle… the person attacking has a World of offensive options depending on the character, frame traps, crossups and high low throw are only the start of the most simple designs (may 
)… watching N-O play venom or RU play bridget is a testament to the limits of human potential (memory, spatial recognition, reaction time etc)… i know top players who also play smash and the general consensus is that although smash has advanced movement etc the game’s engine is still much simpler, which allows you to focus on more psychological elements and create artificial depth… Sometimes a game is so imbalanced that the best options are Overwhelmingly obvious, thus simplifying your choices (mvc2 or cvs2 come to mind)… Mvc2 gets honorable mention due to the variety of advanced movement and offensive/defensive options, but its horrible imbalanced moveset doesn’t require much thought, and pushblocking virtually nullifies keeping track of frame advantages or even giving a shit really… still theres a ton of space to control and the use of independent elements (assists) adds enough to keep it on top…
ruu (br) vs no (ve)
[media=youtube]XsEK8js3T10[/media]
Am I the only one who notices how crazy this is?
“Metagame” is not smash-exclusive terminology by any stretch of the imagination. So there’s that. Then there’s the fact that this is one of the lamest, pettiest complaints one could possibly fathom. Man, I hate black people because they make up their own terminology…
i think its funny that people on srk care which fighting games take the most skill when 90% of people on srk dont even play those games
oh ya and if smash has high level play why cant WoW? its a fighting game as long as you play PvP cause your fighting? So anything PvP is a fighting game even diablo 2. I mean can anyone give a true def of fighting games?
its cuz they had to make up all them dumbass rules. what a shitty game lmao
goddamn, damian. that match makes me want to snap my bb disc in two.
FGs that separate skill level based on heavy execution demands:
1 VF series
2 XvSF, MvC series
FGs that separate skill level based on medium execution and strategy demands:
1 ST/HDR
2 Tekken
3 Just about every other FG
FGs that don’t really separate skill level and have light execution demands:
1 SFIV series
2 Smash series
3 TvC series
IMO
Learning them is pretty easy, yes. I learned each of these in about 10 minutes of practice a piece, wave-dashing included.
But putting them all together and properly applying them? I dare you to tell me that shit is easy. SFFL’ing Marth’s F-air twice into D-Air (the infamous Ken combo, of course) is not easy. It really isn’t.
If there is a esports organization saying shit like that, they don’t deserve to operate. TF2 may not be super hard to play, but it has quite a bit of strategy involved, and each character has quite a number of tactics that must be utilized in order for one to properly play a class. I’m not big on the competitive play either (but the beauty of TF2 is that it can be enjoyed IMMENSELY as a casual game), but I know that saying shit like that is stupid. I mean, it’s like saying Cool Ranch Doritos suck because they are a different color, they use the Nacho Cheese Dorito makeup but it ain’t no Dorito." (granted, I don’t like cool ranch doritos…but you get the point.)
yo just cause they got honor don’t mean we gotta hate ya dig
Long Post…
On the subject of Melee, I for one period, actually did play this game competitively, because there was actually a community where I lived that had a scene for a moment involving this. I was competitive during the early to mid 2000 era, and I will state that the game does have very high strategical values that merit it a deep game as well.
However, I would like Smash Purist (those who mainly play Smash only, or those who have only truly competed in this game only) to realize that in the end, this was a game intended to be a party game first, that happened to turn out into a highly competitive fighting game. However the majority of the community of fighting gamers who see’s things such as “Hammers, Pokemons, bombs, moving stages” which can cause a lot of random situations in which most traditional fighting gamers will simply detest or do not agree too. Remember, that those reasons are why other games such as Power Stone are not taken as seriously by the traditional FG community as SF due to the fact of items, or other random and misc things.
You may disagree and try to argue against that, however most traditional fighting gamers who did not start out with Melee as their first true big competitive game will be completely turned off when they are playing Melee, only to get killed by an item, or else having a star fighter fly by and blasting them off the stage <---- this one right there is random bullshit no matter how you try to put it.
I’m not downgrading Melee either, so don’t get all fired up on that comment, however again, it was not intended to be a pure fighting game like that of Street Fighter, even the creators have stated that it is at its core, a Party Game, however I agree that when molded (meaning you will have to not allow certain bullshit stages in Melee, lower drop rate of items, and downright remove some stupid ones etc, etc) that it can become a highly competitive fighting game.
So to those who keep trying to force Melee to other players to prove their case, I’m just simply saying that most will not agree simply because it does not play within the same relative realm and even rules of that of traditional fighting game, hence why most will never take it seriously regardless. However I will say to those that never played Melee competitively and just simply say that it lacks “all and everything” then you also are not giving it enough credit.
As for Tekken’s depth of play, I have not played Tekken 6 : BR, but the org. Tekken 6 was pretty trashy to me, the three Tekken games in my mind which were very competitive, were Tekken 3, Tekken Tag and Tekken 4. There wasn’t a ton of stupid bs in there with things like “hopkicks, crushes, everyone has to juggle, and bound” garbage. Those three in my mind can rival nearly any other fighting game that is considered deep or so on, I would like to go on more about Tekken but those three were to me the most competitive Tekken versions to date.
Also just wondering all of you people who keep saying VF series, since so many of you popped out of nowhere if you have ever even remotely played it super competitively yourself? I’ve only known like a small minuscule handful who actually took that game seriously and played it competitively to actually claim it “very skilled based”. Considering Japan is the only country which plays this game super competitively while here in the States, it’s almost non-existent in contrast to other fighting game franchises.
Now, I don’t take anything away from VF, especially from those who played VF4:Evo competitively and stated that its arguably the most strategy based VF game. However, I for one have never personally played any VF competitively besides VF:2 and that was ages ago. So again, for those who simply say “VF” are some of you just spewing this off from other opinions, are do you have a strong competitive background in the series to boldly claim VF up in the ranks. I’ve come across a ton of people who simply say VF, because they simply hear it from outside opinion and just agree that it’s so deep, etc, etc, but they never even played it competitively to make that opinion themselves (I am saying this is because so many people are showing up in this thread claiming to know the game). Again, from me personally, I’ve only met a few people who knew how to play (a very small handful in the States, and quite a few with my Japanese buddies living in Japan) and thus had a real solidification to their opinion on it.
As I’ve said here, when it comes to Most Skill Based Fighting Game, you can truly only gauge this with fighting games in which you’ve actually played yourself, so if anyone is saying “So and So” but have never really played it competitively or know it well enough to make a claim, you should stop, and only post what you really know, outside opinion is usually fail, because real personal experience is where it’s at, hence why there will never be a true agreement on most “strategy based” fighting game, lolz.
However, if you want my opinion and personal experience…it’s Street Fighter II : Hyper Fighting, absolutely phenomenal fighting game, and like all other fighting games, it has it’s flaws but it’s positive aspects overtakes these easily.
Which exploits?
last I heard Vamp Sav 2 which is Dark Stalkers 3 Demitri wasnt even top tier
Wasn’t Tekken 4 considered utter broken crap?
Also, Tekken 6 BR is actually decent. But it’s pretty boring. The game seems very repetitive/stale.
Being broken doesn’t mean that it isn’t strategical though, MvC2 is broken, but it’s level of depth and strategy can rival any other balanced fighting game. Things about T4 like the jabs, they were very powerful in the game of T4, without a doubt more powerful then any other Tekken version. However, due to this very reason, T4 developed the best defensive plays that I’ve ever seen within a Tekken game. Due to the fact of jabs, you had some of the most powerful rushdown/bulldogging tactics.
Love the Wallpushes, and when your standing next to a wall, it was great to mix it up and then grab them and push them up against the wall, giving you an advantage. Plus making it so that you couldn’t juggle an opponent 290348203948 times up against the wall was great too, unlike in T5 or T6 where if you hit the wall…you will get raped. Again, loved the wall tech, sure it wasn’t done perfectly in T4, but imo it was needed.
Other simple “character” mods like Kazuya’s (E)wgf not launching unless it was a CH was great, and this is coming from me, a Mishima Player. That it instead of seeing Kazuya sitting there chucking Ewgf fearlessly, they had to wait for punishments in order to guarantee a launch, which made it very interesting. Another was the stages, yes, alot of people had problems with un evened stages, and at times even I found them frustrating, however I felt it was another depth to the game. If I was playing, I knew that if I got an opponent on a higher ledge, I would have the clear advantage, because it would negate some of the best attacks, while I would still have all of mine available.
To me, Tekken 4 was like a Beta Tekken game, and had it of received more recognition at the time (Too many heads at the time wanted another Tekken Tag like game during that period) I feel that the T4 route would have been much better then the current Tekken route they have going on with Tekken 6. When I played Tekken 6, it was so bad that it actually made me like T5:Dr and I hated DR.
“broken”
lmfao my nigga
Sigh
Melee was developed to be more light hearted than your average fighting game, there’s no denying that. But that doesn’t change the fact that the game’s fighting system was constructed with extreme care, depth and integrity. And no, glitches aren’t what give the game its depth, because there’s actually very few viable glitches in competitive Smash. The robust physics system, the Okizeme system, the profound impact of weight classes and falling speeds, the combo system, L-Cancel, the edgeguard metagame, the Shield system, the freedom of movement and the quirky nature of the movesets is what qives the game its depth.
Again, “Party Game” is a social construct and pure marketing. I highly doubt you can find an official quote from Nintendo calling Melee a “Party Game”, but even if you did, it wouldn’t matter. Most games in the early millennium (and still today) weren’t developed to cater to people that want to play them competitively. Competitive gaming as a whole is still relatively niche and in its nascency. If anything, we should all be coming together and propping up each other’s scenes, because of this.
But as long kids act the way they do now towards competitive scenes that doesn’t involve or cater to them personally; then competitive gaming deserves to remain seen as a nerdy, reclusive pastime for sociopaths, because that’s how most of you act.