Most Skill Based Fighting Game?

[Resonate]

Okay, you win.

You’re a real trooper, practicing techs in games you find no fun.

salutes

Can you read? I’m starting to think that you can’t.

[SynikaL]

Are you that dense?

Ah, yes, yes. My mind is hazy; we had waaay too many drinks that night. I remember vividly, now.

You were doing body shots with that one dude. Hella gay.

[Resonate]

Ah, yes, yes. My mind is hazy; we had waaay too many drinks that night. I remember vividly, now.

You were doing body shots with that one dude. Hella gay.

See? This is what you have to resort to? LMAO!

[TakFR]

You obviously don’t know that I’m talking about when Melee first came out.

ROFL. How many competitive players of Street Fighter do you know that can DP effectively? That rarely miss a DP? Exactly. The actual act of doing the DP is easy but learning when and when not to use it, takes time. Wave Dashing, however, doesn’t. Nor do any of the other “advanced” techniques in Melee. It requires some skill but it’s not in the same ball park as most fighting games.

If you are talking about when a game first came out, why are you arguing that it takes very little skill? Considering how grossly uneducated you are about melee’s metagame -_-

Your DP example doesn’t even make sense, know when to DP and when not to =/= Knowing when to wavedash and when not to according to your terrible logic. Everyone else here is actually giving logical reasoning for there opinions but you, who just says random stuff with nothing to back it up on.

FYI I do acknowledge that Guilty Gear takes an extremely high level of skill to play, however the two games are so different gameplay wise it’s not even comparable in terms of a smash player could do better in guilty gear then a guilty gear player in smash and vice-versa

What the fuck are you babbling about? How many Melee players came from traditional fighters and were top players? How many of them were even decent players?

It did come easy. Compared to most other fighting games. I never said everything else was as easy as Wave Dashing, just most. L-Cancelling probably being the hardest.

Who said anything about a day? I’m just saying that the time it takes to be high level in Melee is nowhere near the time it takes to be high level in most other fighting games. You are retarded if you think otherwise.

That works the other way too, how many traditional fighter players that went to smash were top players?

Once again with the basic techniques -_-

Oh are you speaking from experience there? That is probably the worst (best) thing you have said yet rofl

See? This is what you have to resort to? LMAO!

Are you twelve or something? Pretty much everyone here has given up on convincing you, i’m only still posting because it’s funny to see your replies

[Resonate]

If you are talking about when a game first came out, why are you arguing that it takes very little skill? Considering how grossly uneducated you are about melee’s metagame -_-

Your DP example doesn’t even make sense, know when to DP and when not to =/= Knowing when to wavedash and when not to according to your terrible logic. Everyone else here is actually giving logical reasoning for there opinions but you, who just says random stuff with nothing to back it up on.

FYI I do acknowledge that Guilty Gear takes an extremely high level of skill to play, however the two games are so different gameplay wise it’s not even comparable in terms of a smash player could do better in guilty gear then a guilty gear player in smash and vice-versa

That works the other way too, how many traditional fighter players that went to smash were top players?

Once again with the basic techniques -_-

Oh are you speaking from experience there? That is probably the worst (best) thing you have said yet rofl

God, you are retarded. What I said was that was the reason it took so long. Not a lot of people were doing it so it was harder to learn. Now, it’s probably even easier to learn since so many people are able to do it.

It does make sense. You are just a retard. I meant that skillfully using a DP is harder than skillfully using Wave Dashing or even L-Cancelling.

If nothing is comparable then why even been in this thread? Time is comparable. Comparing how fast one can learn the advanced techniques of Melee vs. Guilty Gear. Not that hard.

How many top traditional fighting game players actually played Melee?

Then what is an advanced technique to you? How many Melee tournaments have you won?

Are you twelve or something? Pretty much everyone here has given up on convincing you, i’m only still posting because it’s funny to see your replies.

He makes that comment and I’m the one that’s twelve? Damn. You are a retard. Convinced me.

[TakFR]

God, you are retarded. What I said was that was the reason it took so long. Not a lot of people were doing it so it was harder to learn. Now, it’s probably even easier to learn since so many people are able to do it.

It does make sense. You are just a retard. I meant that skillfully using a DP is harder than skillfully using Wave Dashing or even L-Cancelling.

If nothing is comparable then why even been in this thread? Time is comparable. Comparing how fast one can learn the advanced techniques of Melee vs. Guilty Gear. Not that hard.

How top traditional fighting game players actually played Melee?

Then what is an advanced technique to you? How many Melee tournaments have you won?

He makes that comment and I’m the one that’s twelve? Damn. You are a retard. Convinced me.

I’m talking about melee’s metagame not wavedashing rofl

You seem to make a habit of comparing things that are not comparable, knowing when to DP and when to wavedash are completly different, one is an attack and one is a spacing tool -_-

Once again you seem to be either making stuff up or talking from experience, I’m not arguing GG takes less skill then melee, i’m saying they are require very different skills and guess what they both require years of practice to be good at. I know HUGE SURPRISE RIGHT?

Once again vice-versa applies, how many top smash players have played a tradtional fighting game competitively?

Advanced techniques are stuff like waveshining, ledge-canceling, jump-canceling shines (1 frame), pivoting, edge and wall teching, shuffling attacks into combos etc. I’ve placed 3rd at a national for my highest, but generally place around the 6-7th mark out of around 40 people. How many tournaments have you won?

[Resonate]

I’m talking about melee’s metagame not wavedashing rofl

You seem to make a habit of comparing things that are not comparable, knowing when to DP and when to wavedash are completly different, one is an attack and one is a spacing tool -_-

Once again you seem to be either making stuff up or talking from experience, I’m not arguing GG takes less skill then melee, i’m saying they are require very different skills and guess what they both require years of practice to be good at. I know HUGE SURPRISE RIGHT?

Once again vice-versa applies, how many top smash players have played a tradtional fighting game competitively?

Advanced techniques are stuff like waveshining, ledge-canceling, jump-canceling shines (1 frame), pivoting, edge and wall teching, shuffling attacks into combos etc. I’ve placed 3rd at a national for my highest, but generally place around the 6-7th mark out of around 40 people. How many tournaments have you won?

Huh? DPs can be used as spacing tools. It makes your opponent afraid to jump in at certain ranges.

Guilty Gear requires more time than Melee to be good at.

I asked that originally. LMAO!

I’ve won a few out of about 70 or so people.

[digimonemporer]

Just the post I’ve been looking for.

Don’t you think you’re being a bit rigid? While a lot of the things you mentioned DO exist in Smash in some form or another - none of those elements are ubiquitous to all the games you mentioned.

Cross-Ups: Not present in 3D fighters at all. Tekken and VF are not fighting games according to these rigid standards. In Melee, characters can move passed one another. This is not as effective as a true cross-up in 2D fighters, because characters are not limited to facing the opposition. This does, however, allow for unique mindgames to take place in this game that aren’t possible in 2D Fighters.

Does this make Smash “better” in this regard? Of course not. This freedom on part of the opposition makes this portion of the game weak in comparison to 2D fighters. In the case of 2D fighters, gameplay is predicated on certain restrictions. Those restrictions make the game more manageable to the human psyche, as it allows players to anticipate or influence more predictable outcomes. Where a game’s restrictions lie, is where its competitive focus lies. Cross-Ups are obviously not one of Melee’s focuses. This doesn’t make Smash “inferior”. Just different.

Meaties: False. Meaties are everywhere in Smash, and most characters have a multitude. Peach’s Down Smash, Falcon and Ganon’s Down Aerials… really I could list all day, so I won’t. All a meaty requires is a long, outstanding hitbox on an attack, and a wake up game - which actually exists in a unique and profound way, in contrast to your claims. They can even yield similar advantages in the form of new combo possibilities and anti-defense techniques.

Okizeme: One of Melee’s focuses, and is arguably more complexed in this game, than 2d fighters, as it takes its wakeup system from the 3D fighter realm. Note: More complex does not mean “better”.

Melee is unique in that your opponent has more options when he/she is faced with hitting the ground, than 2D fighters:

When OTG:

a) Get up in one place
b) Roll Away
c) Roll Towards
d) Get up Attack (percentage dependent)
e) Possum

When Ground Teching:

a) Tech in place
b) Tech Away
c) Tech Towards

A character is invulnerable when Teching or using options A-D OTG. They are vulnerable for 3-4 frames after committing. At this point, if they are read correctly, they are open for damage. Reading your opponent on Wake Up is where most of the damage and momentum in Melee comes from at high levels. Most characters have a throw that can initiate this advantage (i.e. Captain Falcon can Down Throw Fox, forcing him to either Tech, or hit the ground and be forced to face Okizeme [this option is unique to Fox, Falco and Falcon due to other factors BTW]). Reading a tech or OTG roll right can lead to being re-Grabbed or big, big damage combos at high levels.

2-in-1: Melee doesn’t have Supers or any equivalent and neither have 3D fighters for a very long time (largely). 3D Fighters weren’t fighting games until 2008, according to your standards.

I honestly think Super Moves suck. They wrestle control from both players and are purely visceral. shrug

Option-Select: Doesn’t exist is Melee… YET. Melee has a buffer system very similar to 2D fighters. They probably wouldn’t be as effective in Melee due to the amount of freedom and defensive options your opponent has, but I’m willing to bet someone could make OSs work in Melee if they came into the scene with that disposition.

Safe Jump: Doesn’t exist in Melee, but, from my understanding, doesn’t exist in SF4 either. SF4 isn’t a fighting game by your standards.

Frame Traps: They exist in Melee, just in very few instances. Attacks generally don’t give static advantage/disadvantage on hit, due to the nature of percentages. Falco’s Lazer is one of the few instances of a bonafide FT, because its stun is invariable in the face of percentages and puts Falco at a large advantage on hit. It’s a very large part of his game.

The dynamic nature of knockback in contrast to a static yield of hit stun is a tradeoff for the most dynamic combo system in the genre. Your options for combos depend on your opponents percentage which changes constantly. Most combos are essentially made up on the fly, which is much more interesting IMO, than BnB combos that any player at a competitive level can do.

Tech Trap: Definitely in Melee. They’re all over. They’re more influenced by the Okizeme game taking place on platforms, or by the edge of stages where options are more limited.

Melee is in no way inferior to these concepts or other fighting games in general. Just different. I actually find it shocking that so many self proclaimed “fighting game enthusiasts” won’t attempt to look at the game objectively to see exactly what it is that keeps people interested in the game. It’s something unique for you to sink your teeth into.

this should be on the front page.

NOMINATED!!!

[TakFR]

Guilty Gear requires more time than Melee to be good at.

I asked that originally. LMAO!

Yes you did, and I answered it -_-

Sorry I should have been more clear, what I was trying to point out is that a DP is an attack (A spacing tool based on punishing jump), whereas wavedashing is purely a spacing tool that can be used for offensive and defensive purposes The knowing when to wavedash is a completely different spacing tool that dependent on the stage, matchup of characters (what they can do if it is predicted), placement of opponent, intention (offensive or defensive), stage (ledges and platforms nearby) and follow-ups with said wavedash, the same thing goes for dash-dancing and shuffling as well.

[ShinjiGohan]

SynikaL you need to give up on making SRK think that smash is a fighter. You’ve also trolled this whole thread, completely ruining it. and for what? The majority of players here will never accept smash as a fighter, your wasting your time and ours. In fact all your doing is making normal players who before didn’t care much about smash to go on a full hatred of it. Good job, making your goal that much harder.

Just play the games you like and enjoy your time. Stop wasting everyones time here with long winded arguments that none of us care about.

[ShinoBee]

So I’m new at all this fighting game stuff, and I would like to know which fighting games actually do have a great skill gap between beginners and veteran players.

I would definitely like to know more about Tekken’s skill gap. Since I’m from Norcal, I’m aware that I need to catch up with the more skilled players. Big time.

I’m also curious about Street Fighter IV, Guilty Gear Accent Core and Marvel vs. Capcom 2’s skill gap, since I’m questioning if I should try to get into these games.

Sorry to request it, but can I get some details about the skill gap and what it will take for me to become (at least) a decent player? I thought this thread would be fitting to ask.

[DHEvil]

Pick up any fighting game and there’s always a pretty big gap between someone not willing/able to learn and the people who take the game to its limit. Tekken, though, I wouldn’t recommend for this. It’s a great fighter but personally I feel it has one of the lowest skill cielings.

Seriously don’t worry about all this. Just play the fighter you enjoy and there will always be good competition if you’re looking for it, including Tekken. You WON’T be the best you can be if you’re not enjoying the game you are playing anyway.

HAVING SAID THAT there’s no denying that SSF4 is the hot stuff right now. There’s some good competition going on, it’s a young game, there’s stuff still to be found with good mainstream coverage on all of it, so you’ll never be short of info or a pointer if you need to up your game.

[Hecatom]

i hate how the smashers use the word metagame all the time

[The_Third]

^Part of why I dislike competitive Smash is they make up their own terminology…

[SynikaL]

^Part of why I dislike competitive Smash is they make up their own terminology…

C’mon, that’s retarded. Those kids essentially developed their scene in a vacuum - what would you expect?

Besides that, you’re being a hypocrite. Every competitive scene does this. “Option-Select”, “Footsies” and the names players pull out of their ass regarding glitches, weren’t delivered to them from Capcom.

[The_Third]

My statement was more towards the existing universal terms and concepts for fighting games. You say Smash is a fighting game, use universal terms and concepts so that people are less confused.

I’ll end it there. This thread has been shit on far too deep.

[Johnick]

Virtua Fighter, I thought that was a given ?

[platinum_pinoy]

1. Virtua Fighter franchise
2. Guilty Gear XX franchise (#R/Slash/AC/+)
3. 3rd Strike

[pimp_bishop_donjon]

i hate how the smashers use the word metagame all the time

i’m glad that guy up the page who wrote a novel didn’t point out the one biggest thing that makes smash unable to be classed as a fighting game

[RaishinX]

My statement was more towards the existing universal terms and concepts for fighting games. You say Smash is a fighting game, use universal terms and concepts so that people are less confused.

I’ll end it there. This thread has been shit on far too deep.

Yeah that’s one of my gripes: Friendlies, dittos, cooldown lag? Stop improvising plz.