521

Why would we value your opinion though? If you are just being biased, if it takes no skill then go win a tournament for it.

522

Why would I value you yours? It goes both ways. See, I would if it were 4 player Smash with items on. Because then it would actually be fun. At least, Melee had actually advanced techniques and required skill to play even if they community fucked it up by making it no fun to play at tournaments.

523

Just the post I’ve been looking for.

Don’t you think you’re being a bit rigid? While a lot of the things you mentioned DO exist in Smash in some form or another - none of those elements are ubiquitous to all the games you mentioned.

Cross-Ups: Not present in 3D fighters at all. Tekken and VF are not fighting games according to these rigid standards. In Melee, characters can move passed one another. This is not as effective as a true cross-up in 2D fighters, because characters are not limited to facing the opposition. This does, however, allow for unique mindgames to take place in this game that aren’t possible in 2D Fighters.

Does this make Smash “better” in this regard? Of course not. This freedom on part of the opposition makes this portion of the game weak in comparison to 2D fighters. In the case of 2D fighters, gameplay is predicated on certain restrictions. Those restrictions make the game more manageable to the human psyche, as it allows players to anticipate or influence more predictable outcomes. Where a game’s restrictions lie, is where its competitive focus lies. Cross-Ups are obviously not one of Melee’s focuses. This doesn’t make Smash “inferior”. Just different.

Meaties: False. Meaties are everywhere in Smash, and most characters have a multitude. Peach’s Down Smash, Falcon and Ganon’s Down Aerials… really I could list all day, so I won’t. All a meaty requires is a long, outstanding hitbox on an attack, and a wake up game - which actually exists in a unique and profound way, in contrast to your claims. They can even yield similar advantages in the form of new combo possibilities and anti-defense techniques.

Okizeme: One of Melee’s focuses, and is arguably more complexed in this game, than 2d fighters, as it takes its wakeup system from the 3D fighter realm. Note: More complex does not mean “better”.

Melee is unique in that your opponent has more options when he/she is faced with hitting the ground, than 2D fighters:

When OTG:

a) Get up in one place
b) Roll Away
c) Roll Towards
d) Get up Attack (percentage dependent)
e) Possum

When Ground Teching:

a) Tech in place
b) Tech Away
c) Tech Towards

A character is invulnerable when Teching or using options A-D OTG. They are vulnerable for 3-4 frames after committing. At this point, if they are read correctly, they are open for damage. Reading your opponent on Wake Up is where most of the damage and momentum in Melee comes from at high levels. Most characters have a throw that can initiate this advantage (i.e. Captain Falcon can Down Throw Fox, forcing him to either Tech, or hit the ground and be forced to face Okizeme [this option is unique to Fox, Falco and Falcon due to other factors BTW]). Reading a tech or OTG roll right can lead to being re-Grabbed or big, big damage combos at high levels.

2-in-1: Melee doesn’t have Supers or any equivalent and neither have 3D fighters for a very long time (largely). 3D Fighters weren’t fighting games until 2008, according to your standards.

I honestly think Super Moves suck. They wrestle control from both players and are purely visceral. shrug

Option-Select: Doesn’t exist is Melee… YET. Melee has a buffer system very similar to 2D fighters. They probably wouldn’t be as effective in Melee due to the amount of freedom and defensive options your opponent has, but I’m willing to bet someone could make OSs work in Melee if they came into the scene with that disposition.

Safe Jump: Doesn’t exist in Melee, but, from my understanding, doesn’t exist in SF4 either. SF4 isn’t a fighting game by your standards.

Frame Traps: They exist in Melee, just in very few instances. Attacks generally don’t give static advantage/disadvantage on hit, due to the nature of percentages. Falco’s Lazer is one of the few instances of a bonafide FT, because its stun is invariable in the face of percentages and puts Falco at a large advantage on hit. It’s a very large part of his game.

The dynamic nature of knockback in contrast to a static yield of hit stun is a tradeoff for the most dynamic combo system in the genre. Your options for combos depend on your opponents percentage which changes constantly. Most combos are essentially made up on the fly, which is much more interesting IMO, than BnB combos that any player at a competitive level can do.

Tech Trap: Definitely in Melee. They’re all over. They’re more influenced by the Okizeme game taking place on platforms, or by the edge of stages where options are more limited.

Melee is in no way inferior to these concepts or other fighting games in general. Just different. I actually find it shocking that so many self proclaimed “fighting game enthusiasts” won’t attempt to look at the game objectively to see exactly what it is that keeps people interested in the game. It’s something unique for you to sink your teeth into.

524

Safe jump exists in SF4.

525

I thought that was debunked? Isn’t there 3 - 4 frames of vulnerability upon landing?

edit

Nevermind, I might have read wrong.

526

Maybe because I don’t completely contradict myself,
You understand that I am talking about Melee and not Brawl right?
Also you finding it “boring” with no random shit doesn’t exactly contribute well to a skill discussion now does it?
I think you mean Melee actually had advanced techniques btw

If you found it no fun then good for you.The fact that you imply you would play a proper FFA items tournament says more about you then me doesn’t it :zzz:

527

My first post wasn’t directed at you so I’m not contradicting myself now am I? I was and am still talking about Brawl. Never once did I mention Melee. Nice try though.

Indeed. I type too fast for my own good.

Melee did require skill but nowhere near as much skill as any of the other games mentioned. I picked up Wave Dashing in less than an hour and I didn’t even own the game. Melee required skill but not much.

And that fact that you think that Melee has anywhere near the learning curve of any of the games mentioned, makes you a retard now, doesn’t it? Oh and I think you mean you THAN me

528

Bro, if you think Wavedashing is still considered a high-level technique, you don’t know shit about Melee. That includes what kind of learning curve it has.

529

That was just an example. L-Cancelling, Dash Dancing, Fast Falling, Short Hop, etc. None of them are really that hard to do. All can be picked up very quickly.

530

Great. So how much money have you made playing Melee?

531

I’m talking about melee here, I agree with you on Brawl somewhat (competitive brawl is disgusting =/). I think you are making the mistake of placing both melee and brawl in the same boat in terms of how the metagames work, even though they are completely different with Melee like most traditional fighters being more momentum based with combos, tech chases etc and will have one person person on attack, while the other is on defense much like any other fighting game. In Brawl because there are no combos, each player is at a neutral standpoint on each other for the majority of the time, hence why the metagame in brawl is to wait (camp) for an opening on your opponent, hit them then repeat =/.

You understand that wavedashing doesn’t make you pro right? Pretty much all players can wavedash including the bad ones, news flash wavedashing is not the metagame of melee rofl.

I like how you say melee doesn’t have anywhere near the learning curve of other fighters, yet you think the hardest thing to do in this game is move diagonally downwards, jump and press sheild.

edit: lol once again you think the easy stuff is the hardest stuff to learn in this game, go waveshine someone across the stage and end in usmash if you can then

532

Haven’t I pointed out that I don’t play it competitively because its just not fun? And how much money does anyone make playing Melee? Lol. I can do pretty much every advanced technique in Guilty Gear but I don’t play that competitively either because I’m so far behind all the players, I won’t win for lacking of experience. Now, if you think Melee takes anywhere near the skill it takes to play Guilty Gear, I need not say anymore. Your stupidity will do that talking for me.

Do you even understand what the word “pro” means? How many “pro” Melee players are there exactly? LMAO. It’s an example of an advanced technique, that’s it.

When did I say it was the hardest thing in the game to do? O_o And what is a “sheild?” Don’t know what that is.

533

Resonate, you don’t get it. You said that you picked up Wavedashing, which is a basic technique, in ‘less than an hour.’ That’s about as impressive as saying that you picked up DPing in an hour or something. You obviously do not have experience with competitive Melee to an extent that would give you actual knowledge of what it takes to be “high level” in any sense of the term.

534

Let him keep posting Kristoph, it’s funny seeing his replies rofl

I like how he goes from “very little skill” to “not as much as guilty gear”

535

You obviously don’t know that I’m talking about when Melee first came out.

ROFL. How many competitive players of Street Fighter do you know that can DP effectively? That rarely miss a DP? Exactly. The actual act of doing the DP is easy but learning when and when not to use it, takes time. Wave Dashing, however, doesn’t. Nor do most of the other “advanced” techniques in Melee. It requires some skill but it’s not in the same ball park as most fighting games.

536

I said nowhere near. Because Guilty Gear takes tons of skill and Melee takes very little. Is it really that hard to comprehend?

God, you Melee fans are as retarded as reputation would have people believe. No wonder everyone makes fun of you.

537

You sat and practiced a game for an hour you found no fun? That’s odd.

I can give you Wavedashing. I’ve personally seen people pick it up in an hour… poorly.

Everything else coming coming together for you so easily would essentially make you a savant relative to the rest of the community, and you should be destroying the Smash scene. Even for the best of players in the community, it took months (at the very least) for those techniques to work in harmony and allow them to focus on the metagame. There’s nothing intuitive about Wavedash and L-Cancel at all, and requires a lot of reprogramming if you’re coming from more traditional fighters, especially. L-Cancel, for i.e., is the only 2D fighter that imposes lag on aerial attacks.

So, yeah. How about all these people claiming they picked up high-level Smash in a day, owned everyone at their local tourney etc… leap off a precipice.

And stop talking about GG. You probably know less about that game than you do about Smash.

538

What the fuck are you babbling about? How many Melee players came from traditional fighters and were top players? How many of them were even decent players?

It did come easy. Compared to most other fighting games. I never said everything else was as easy as Wave Dashing, just most. L-Cancelling probably being the hardest.

Who said anything about a day? I’m just saying that the time it takes to be high level in Melee is nowhere near the time it takes to be high level in most other fighting games. You are retarded if you think otherwise.

539

Okay, you win.

You’re a real trooper, practicing techs in games you find no fun.

salutes

540

I was playing Melee 4 players with items on so, yes, I actually had fun. I didn’t sit there by myself doing it. I learned from a few friends while I was playing. Are you that dense?

And you know about Guilty Gear? If you did, you wouldn’t think that Melee takes much skill to play. I mention it but, personally, I think it’s the most skill based fighting game.