Stop making up arguments that aren’t even there. Telling me I don’t know what I’M talking about, you taking whatever you want and blowing it up to extremes. Next thing you’re going to do is blanket the whole statement across everything, aren’t you.
I don’t think anyone said a damn thing about half assed play. Half assed players have a hard time even keeping some shit going.
The best players in the game prevent the stuff from happening in the first place, to the best of their ability, but once it starts and is kept going… then what.
There is shit like that in every game though. What happens in Marvel if I get Justin Wong in a rom? What happens if I hit some top player like Ten with a wasteland loop? What if? Yeah, these are combos and traps that are hard to break (still breakable though). however, you said the magic word. top top players know how to prevent it. Knowing how to do a rom, or a loop isn’t going to do anything for me against top players. Because they are almost never going to get hit by it unless I have some advance strategy or setup (and what makes a top player top is that they recognize top strategies and counter them on the fly). Bottomline the skill level gap is still there in ST and it’s plainly and blantantly obvious.
Even if I know wall dive shennigans I am never going to be Daigo. Why? Because ST is all about spacing. And what more than likely seperates me from Daigo, Gian, ARG, Muteki, Kurashi is their superior command of footsies. Yeah there is a “what if”. But these guys never fall asleep. Have you ever played a top player in any game? It’s ridiculous. You can’t hit them, you can’t bait them, you can’t trap them, and your setups don’t fucking work. I can beat many of lesser players at my skill level or slightly above it with my paltry tricks and setups. But that shit just isn’t going to fly against world class players. Emil’s original point is no point at all. That high damage works in the top player favor always. And as a matter of fact, if there is any game where a vastly superior player can totally blowout a lesser player, it’s ST. A game where matches can literally end in 30 seconds.
I said there is a bigger chance for a lower level player to beat a higher level player (or do a lot of damage) in ST compared to many other games. Someone that knows some tricks and just spam it can get lucky because the windows to counter them are so small and the damage output is reasonably high for them. Just imagine a noob that happens to catch Gian in a kneebash throw, then performs the loop on him over and over. Sure, Gian could counter throw it or teleport out, but there’s an easy chance that he can mistime the counterthrow and get hit again…and again. It’s the same with slide to noogies and walldives.
Dude, I’ve seen Sabin just beat some high level Japs (BSun, Kuro@Branka) with just slide into noogie and walldives. He didn’t even mindgame them, he just did it over and over and it worked. Now Sabin may not be a noob but point is, anyone can learn these simple tactics and start using them, and the window for getting out of them is too tight - the opportunity for the noob to do damage is pretty high.
What if a braindead Gief gets one knockdown on Gian(he might have trouble getting it but he really just needs one, whether it’s from a random sweep, lariat, whatever)? It can be the end of the match right there as long as this noob knows the simple concept of jump attack, 360.
I didn’t say it couldn’t be done, I said it’s pretty much a guess, assuming you even timed your reversal correctly. Again, I’ve seen Kurahashi lose by Noguchi repeatedly doing wall dives. Go look up the match on youtube.
Yes, execution in Kof is not that precise (GG does require crisp inputs obviously, especially for FRCs). Lower level players are going to have a hard time actually getting their damage in Kof and GG, unlike ST.
In kof, it is pretty much impossible for a lower level player to beat me. I can go for literally hundreds of matches against lower level players without ever losing once. That’s just how the game is, sure there are abusable moves in the game but you’re rarely stuck in a situation where you must act quick and precise or you are going to lose a lot of life.
cvs2 honestly has a huge barrier to entry in that it’s too hard to play well, much like the vf games
i like vf as much as the next guy, and i agree it’s a very hard game to play, but i think most people on these forums just knee-jerk-react with the vf responses and have no idea why
but yeah, i would rate top 3 skill games as
vf series
cvs2 (upsets pretty much never happen)
mvc2 (the amount of good players getting randomed out by msp is amazingly low)
one thing all of these games have in common is that they have really, really high execution requirements
another thing is that all of these games require a really deep knowledge base of the game
Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure, mind you this is very horribly biased, because of the tight frame links and execution needed to pull off some of the more advanced combos. On top of that, you have to know the game and how your particular character matches up against each individual character in the game. Pretty much, this game takes time to get good at Still fun though, but rather difficult.
I said there is a bigger chance for a lower level player to beat a higher level player (or do a lot of damage) in ST compared to many other games. Someone that knows some tricks and just spam it can get lucky because the windows to counter them are so small and the damage output is reasonably high for them. Just imagine a noob that happens to catch Gian in a kneebash throw, then performs the loop on him over and over. Sure, Gian could counter throw it or teleport out, but there’s an easy chance that he can mistime the counterthrow and get hit again…and again. It’s the same with slide to noogies and walldives.
[/Quote]
Yeah, good luck with this happening. As someone who plays Dhalsim, I know pretty much that claw is one of his worst matchups. First of all, walldive is highly abusable but it comes with some risk. It’s just as much of a guessing game for the person doing it as it is for the person who receives it. And wall dives are only pretty effective in the middle of the screen.
Someone like Gian who is an experience Dhalsim player will throw few fireballs, and play footsies with various air pokes. On reaction he’ll also use his drills to try to cut off the wall from Vega. And he’ll use offensive drill pressure to try to stop Vega from moving.
Keep in mind that YES, this mathup is highly in Vega’s favor. But an amature Vega who only want to spam wall dives isn’t going to beat a world class Dhalsim like Gian who knows that matchup, and probably knows quite a few tricks to get around this.
Dhalsim doesn’t have a lot of useful reversals in the first place. And yes it would be hard to counter once he get’s in it. However most good Sim’s know it’s better to work on positioning in this matchup. and someone like Gian who is a world class Dhalsim is more than likely going to know positioning and spacing far better than some newbie Vega.
Arg, one of the best claw players in the world rarely uses walldives. Now he does, but only when he’s got the person into position. It’s more in Vega’s interest to harass his opponent with slides and his great poke range. Vega has to bait them to get in the position for his walldive shenanigans. And this feat probably isn’t that easy versus someone with a good command of footsies and spacing.
I am not aware of those two players. All I know is that Arturo is an East Coast legend, and well rounded in SF games in general. And I’m sure he had to employ some mindgames. For one yes, Dhalsim can keep up his slide noogie trap even against skilled opponents. But he can do so by delaying his slide to bait out reversal attempts and alternate between short and mid slides. I’m sure these players, if they are top level probably has enough experience and execution to pull of their reversals or even counter throws. Keep in mind the noogie trap IS a mixup. And it’s a pretty thorough one at that. Delaying the slides and ticking into the noogie is apart of the mixup as well. Maybe to the naked eye he appears to be noobing someone out, but he’s really timing his slides. Anyway, if you have a youtube link of that, please provide it some I can have some more clarity.
Also I don’t know of these Japanese players. I know for one I have never seen their name in the GrandMasters Challenge, Master Secret Cup, or X-Mania. Maybe they have been, but they definitely aren’t marquee names that are always at these tourneys.
First of all a braindead Gief isn’t going to get a knockdown against Gian. Maybe someone like Gunze, Pony, or any other high level Gief can. I don’t see a dumb Gief ever getting the chance. Dhalsim is damn good in ST, definite top tier hands down. But yes Dhalsim game is played by zoning, so if someone gets close, yes he’s pretty much fucked.
Yes, I know what you’re saying. Gief could probably knock Sim out of one of his pokes with a random lariat or sweep. But considering Gian has good command of footsies, and probably has this understanding when playing this matchup, I doubt he would be just throwing out random limps. Personally Yoga fire can effectively zone a braindead Gief. And more than likely the braindead Gief will jump and get counter poked by Sim. Yes Sim will have some issues if by some chance a newbie Gief gets in, but Sim has various tools close range that could be a problem. AA slides/noggie, jump FPs can effectively reset the distance and then you have to start the game all over again.
Who is Noguchi? Oh yeah a top Vega/Fei player who has competed in severa X-Manias and Master Secret Cups. He’s a top level player. And not only is he top level with Claw, claw is one of Guile’s worst matchups. It’s been one of his worse since the CE days. Kurahashi is a premier Guile player for sure, but losing to someone at the level of Noguchi isn’t a tragedy, and this in now way validates your point (that in ST is a game where newbs can pretty much beat higher skilled players). all this proves is that a top player can lose to another top player.
jump SPDs cant be anti-aired on REACTION by Sim. This situation will more than likely ever happen unless Gian is asleep at the wheel.
Same goes for ST. Grahm Wolfe was on GGPO the past weekend and said streak like this in ST aren’t uncommon in Japan against decent competition.
The whole thing started when various people came up and said that ST was a game that definitely creates a major gap between noobs and experts. You said the opposite is true because of the high damage output. Your words not mine. I’ve broke down through several post why this is not the case.
They aren’t…well, someone said Kuro@Branka is actually Komoda, but I don’t think so. Anyway, here is a random match of B-Sun:
[media=youtube]wfwFHe-PYqY[/media]
I heard he qualified in SBO too.
Well thet hing is, when a top player ends up playing against someone who is low level, a top player might end up expecting too much from that player and then have to re-adjust(dumb down) his game. During this readjustment stage, it is possible to get hit by nonsensical things and this could lead to a loss.
Well as I said, by the time Gian realizes his opponent is braindead, it might be too late.
I wasn’t making a point about the player himself, I was saying that a lower level player can master the wall dive (or perhaps even a less mastered version of it) and then utilize it to take out a top player. Kurahashi would get hit by the dives about 3-4 times in a row. Why should a top player like that be getting hit by something so braindead?
Well what I meant was, after Gief has landed his first knockdown, he can spam the jumps into spd.
Yes, and that no way states that there is no gap between high level and low level players in ST. All it said was that the gap in ST was closer rather than larger, compared to other games.
Mind you, it isn’t saying that top players are not that much better than low/intermediate players in ST compared to other games, it’s saying that lower level players have a higher chance to succeed against top players compared to other games. Succeeding to beat someone does not necessarily mean you are betterthan them, depending on how you win(what it was that you exploited). Hence the point I was making about ST having very easy to execute, hard to counter and high damaging setups.
Note: My Chun is solidly scrubby, mixed with some intelligence. A noob with walldive? I got accused of being cheap using her on GGPO
Note on BSun video: if you believe he’s gonna fall for the walldive loop executed by a noob… no way :xeye:
The thing about the walldive loop is it need precise timing and execution. I know it looks easy on video, but I’ve beaten so many people trying to use it because their spacing or grab was off just a little bit.
How much ST have you actually played? My Ryu is now being called solid, but good players are so far beyond my reach it’s not even fun. Even IF the skillgap is smaller in ST than in other games, it’s still a mountain. Trust me
No no, my initial statement did not even talk about the skill gap(though I ended up misusing the term “gap” later on, what I really meant to say was the gap in terms of what is needed to win a match, not the actual gap in skill levels). I believe the skill gap in ST is pretty big, but the initial comment was that lower level players can get away with a lot more things against top players than in other games.
Now honestly I’ve never tried to execute wall dive loops, but I was told by people that actually can do them, that they are pretty easy. That on top of the fact that it really does look easy (though of course, that alone can be misleading).
I also agree VF takes the most skill to play. Other fighters may demand more execution but VF demands not only great execution but an understanding of when and how to use that execution.
The training mode in VF proves this point. You can pick up a character and go through every move in his/her moveset in no time. But when you actually have to apply certain moves in a real fight you will get destroyed by skilled players. It’s also the reason why it’s difficult to pick up multiple fighters in the game. Each one is pretty demanding due to the fact that each moveset is truly unique and and different from one another.
Strangely I find VF easier to play on a pad or even a stick which I am not used to at all yet than SF games. I feel like the game while having some moves and characters with difficult execution requirements is still easier to deal with than the requirements that SF games generally have. I really hope a new VF comes out with online for the PS3 as I would like to see what other people can do with the game.
What makes umk3 skilled? (Not trying to be a dick; just never expected to hear an MK game be brought up in this discussion so I am curious about your reasoning.)
Still fun though, but rather difficult.