Most Skill Based Fighting Game?

The sentiment is very mutual here, as a good fei player I find myself easily destroying lesser turbo players…but when it comes to the higher levels of competition I’m basically hopless. In games like 3s and T5/6, the better player will determine the outcome but it isn’t to the same extent as I would say turbo is. Oddly enough, inspite of the controversy the statment I’m about to make is…Ive noticed this "turbo"like quality in regards to player skill in SVC of all games. Not to claim that game is great or anything, but the visibility between good and bad players is VERY appearant.

As a exceptional Ryu player, I remember coming up agaisnt a really good sim player who just completly owned me…I contested to the best of my abilites but he just flat out played a better game. In other occasions, I remember going up agaisnt really good Geese players with my ryu whom I was able to beat…I found it so strange that I was able to beat good Geese players yet I couldn’t beat a excellent sim player lol. It was odd, the degree’s in seperation between the bad/average/good/great player’s skill was immense…I could beat a good player using a top tier but I couldn’t beat a great player using a low tier lol.

In ST, I think it’s the opposite…it is easier for a higher level player to lose to a lower level player compared to other games because for one, the damage output, and two, there are too many situations easy to execute, difficult and risky to get out of situations.

Various tick throw setups, including Dhalsim slide -> throw, Gief throw bullshit and Vega walldive spam are some thintgs that can be used to beat a much better. It’s just really hard for a top ST player to consistently win compared to other games like say, GG and kof.

yay a contest of opinion so nobody can win!

lol, what? It’s amazing how you never know what you’re talking about. a newbie cannot under any circumstances beat a high level player. I don’t think my friend (who sucks at ST) will ever beat Gian. You can teach newbs a ST trick but that won’t be enough. The yoga noogie trap will get you fucked up at a higher level. Seriously you can’t even get away with that shit on GGPO. I doubt you’d get away with it at higher levels either.

Wall Dives have counters. Every character can counter it. It’s difficult to counter, but it can be done. Again if some newb want to spam wall dives, he’sl look to get fucked. Ever noticed that at very high levels they NEVER do the wall dive, or they use it sparingly. Ever wonder why some newb will abuse that shit, but top level Japanese and American players won’t?

Seriously any newbie Vega would get raped trying to spam wall dives.

The very reason there is a skill gap between high level and low level ST is because of the damage. Mistakes HURT in ST and they hurt bad. And between a top level player and a lower level player, who the fuck do you think is making more mistakes? Seriously, Vega is my hardest matchup. But I know how to position myself perfectly where I can counter 80% wall dive attempts. At this point a Vega player is going to get me with his superior pokes and walk speed rather than a wall dive.

But excuse me, you’re an execution whore. Apparently KOF and GG are just better games because they require higher execution. Well artificial excecution. You execution doesn’t need to be that precise in KOF. GG doesn’t require crisp inputs either. Which is why more stuff is possible. IF your timing had to be like it is in ST, those games would be nearly unplayable.

In either case, I admire GG and KOF don’t get me wrong. But to say ST does not have a gap is fucking ludicrous and ignorant.

Tokido?

But I don’t agree that its easier for a lower-level player to beat a high level player because of the high damage etc. in ST. In fact I believe the opposite is true. The highest level of players can handle this shit but it’ll tear mid level players apart.

A newbie Claw player will never successfully be able to Walldive for free and hope to land that on a solid player, not even top, but just solid player. First off, the newbie Claw player would have to have a good understanding of cross ups and execution in controlling the wall dives so that he can continue to make it effective, otherwise, he’s basically what he is, a newbie hoping for the best, and thus will eat AA’s, air throws, air to air attacks, etc, etc.

You cannot walldive effectively unless you know the concept of it well enough to do it consistently and effectively. You watch Tokido and you’ll notice that it isn’t easy, in fact, wall dive shenanigans have been around since Claw debuted in CE. Claw himself as a character isn’t a pick me up stroll around the park either, because learning how to use his pokes, slide, jumping over fireballs, and all inherently isn’t particularly easy in itself, much less just depending on walldive spams.

Watching Sagat match ups in SFII, we’ve seen O. Sagat do his work however go as far back as Champion Edition (A Sagat even more beastly then O. Sagat mind you). You see barrages of Tiger Shots, and if your not that solid in the game you start thinking to yourself “Wow, that’s mindless gameplay right there”. However believe me when I say this…doing Low Tiger zoning is not an easy feat, simply for the fact that, “if” you don’t know now how to grasp when to launch Tiger shots, you will suffer huge consequences for doing so, because one mistake will cost you a magnitude of your life.

For example, even guys like Jeff stated on the superior capabilities of Tomo’s legendary spacing ability. I remember him speaking about how he could never ever beat, or lock down Tomo’s Guile using Sagat, ever. Simply because Tomo’s positioning game was so far ahead of everyone else’s, that he would methodically get in, jump awards and punish your limbs whenever you throw out a Tiger shot. We all know that typically two solid lvl players that Guile vs Sagat should be an edge to Sagat, however not in this case, simply due to the fact that Tomo’s mastering of the most important values of SFII was beyond everyone elses.

The simple reasons are this, “doing” the moves in SFII is a already a concept new players will struggle with, however incorporating this in, and understanding the footsies, spacing, zoning of SFII is the real test of a good player. Reasons why the gaps are so vast, because a solid player with an understanding of these will downright butcher newbie players, however a top lvl player will utterly destroy solid players, while the cream of the crop, the super elites (A Tomo in his Prime for example) just basically owns everyone for free. So simply put, there are very huge gaps between lvl of players in SFII.

any fighting game without super meter imo

I really only have a few things to contribute.

  • I don’t care what the game is, top players will beat mashers. This isn’t even part of the argument and it is dumb. Doesn’t matter if we’re talking about Tekken, VF, SC, DoA, SF2, 3, 4, Alphas, GGXX, Melty, BB, Fate:UC, AH, Marvel games, TvC, MK 2, 3, 3d MKs, MKvsDC, KoF, Garou/FF, SamSho, Smash, Darkstalkers, whatever. I can only spit out but so many fighting series and they all have something in common, experts beat mashers, the end. You might have fewer experts in lesser played games, but my point stands.

  • MvC2 has a large gap between newbies and experts. But it has more to do with knowledge than anything else. Most of us should be able to remember when the game first came out in the arcades and on DC, and we probably played some dumbass team that didn’t work for crap. I played Guile/Gief/Cap.Armerica with some Cyclops or Gambit for variety. I was at best 3rd at my local arcade (being generous here). Overnight, I became #1. Why is that? Because I learned Sentinel (or Doom)/Cable/Clops. The other players at my arcade were still living it up with Guile/Charlie/Cap.America using sonic boom assists. So I had a huge advantage not because of skill. Hell, get me 1v1 and I still had trouble with fundamentals of the game. But in a 3 character vs. 3 character setting, I was playing real teams with a strategy and not 3 individual characters who didn’t play well together. More so than other games, you can really win Marvel, with knowledge, at the select screen.

  • TrueSephiroth speaks real talk. Good spacing and movement is one thing that is universal in all games. The better you become at spacing, the better your overall game becomes.

  • VF is brought up a lot. Does anyone on this forum even play VF? If so, my gamertag is to the left, please add me and invite me to play. I would like to improve my very poor VF game :sad:

  • I’m beating around the bush and not picking a “most skill based game” because I think the thread is dumb, yet I feel compelled to read… There is something we can learn from almost every fighting game series. Tekken teaches you whiff punishing like a son of a bitch. SF 2 and 4 teaches you the importance of spacing for good zoning. If you play a lot of games, try and think about what each game taught you.

I don’t think he said anything about a ‘newbie’.
Emil said, a ‘lower’ level player, which would be in comparison to the higher level player.

WOOOOOOO

imo.

It’s still not remotely true though. I can play ST, but I don’t think I’m going to go to Mikado and beat anyone over there.

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MvC2 has a large gap between newbies and experts. But it has more to do with knowledge than anything else. Most of us should be able to remember when the game first came out in the arcades and on DC, and we probably played some dumbass team that didn’t work for crap. I played Guile/Gief/Cap.Armerica with some Cyclops or Gambit for variety. I was at best 3rd at my local arcade (being generous here). Overnight, I became #1. Why is that? Because I learned Sentinel (or Doom)/Cable/Clops. The other players at my arcade were still living it up with Guile/Charlie/Cap.America using sonic boom assists. So I had a huge advantage not because of skill. Hell, get me 1v1 and I still had trouble with fundamentals of the game. But in a 3 character vs. 3 character setting, I was playing real teams with a strategy and not 3 individual characters who didn’t play well together. More so than other games, you can really win Marvel, with knowledge, at the select screen.

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MVC2 has a gap. But I think I do believe that execution is a big part of this gap. someone can have decent execution with a decent team, but still get served by someone who knows more. However good team + execution gets you very far in this game. You don’t even need to know a lot of fundamentals to be pretty decent. There is this local guy who plays MSP. He hardly ever blocks call the fuck out of psyclocke and randomly tri-jumps all over the place. He beats a lot of people simply by doing that. Now there are local top players WAY better than him who rapes him. But he gets further than he should.

Now if we take a game like VF where you get a top tier character and even have good execution but no fundamentals. You simply aren’t going to get far. The same applies to ST or Tekken or even Guilty Gear. Skill based games are where the game fundamentals are far greater than character selection and execution.

Of course in Marvel there are freaks of nature out there who can rape a top tier team with a low tier team simply by knowing the fundamentals and system mechanics. But these guys are master level players. To me character selection and execution shouldn’t be beating half way decent players. But it does in Marvel.

Bullshit.

I think what it comes down to, is the game’s huge counter character nature and the nigh unbeatable traps(unless you prevent obviously) that can completely remove the player vs player.

The execution in SF2 is a walk in the park compared to KOF, at least that’s how it is for me. It might be because it’s a slower game, but turbo has some pretty slick controls in terms of responsivness…with KOF tittles I still botch from time to time. Although it is probably more attributed to the imput requirments,it’s very simplifed in capcom tittles while in most SNK games the imput requirments are very demanding…play as K9999 and you’ll know wha I mean.

I’m curious as to why you bring this up, are you implying more technically executed fighting games require more skill? If so we minus will throw Street Fighter 1 in here, because executing in that game requires you to be nearly 99.9% perfect.

Seriously, you don’t know what you’re talking about. By your logic, you can have a half assed Vega and beat a really good Sim since it’s a bad matchup for Sim. But I recall seeing Gian rape Vega’s like Arg, Scarlet Balrog, and Noguchi. Oh and these are world class claws, not just random nobodies picking characters.

No trap is unbeatable. You can try the Yoga noogie trap against Honda or any character, and everyone has an answer for it. I personally wouldn’t want to be reversaled Ochio by anyone. These “traps” work against less players. Against top competition they can be used to start a mixup.

I don’t think some bullshit ST tricks is going to win against top level players. If you are the lesser player, you WILL lose. Simple as that.

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The execution in SF2 is a walk in the park compared to KOF, at least that’s how it is for me. It might be because it’s a slower game, but turbo has some pretty slick controls in terms of responsivness…with KOF tittles I still botch from time to time. Although it is probably more attributed to the imput requirments,it’s very simplifed in capcom tittles while in most SNK games the imput requirments are very demanding…play as K9999 and you’ll know wha I mean.


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KOF has some crazy inputs. But they’re rather lenient. For example a HCF x2 motion in ST is much harder than the same motion in KOF. To do sim’s d.lk xx super requires pretty precise timing. By contrast if you were to do Ralf’s st.D xx throw super (which is HCF x 2) it’s tons easier. That is the reason why I say the execution is pretty artificial. Just because it requires more inputs doesn’t mean it has higher execution requirements.

Marvel is a game where supers are simply QCF + PP for the most part. But that game takes pretty heave execution.

KOF does have heavy execution, but the inputs are lenient.

He commented on SF2 being the harder game to execute which i disagree with, SF2 had real simple execution…it was one of the few thing I was able to learn fairly quickly when playing it. I wish KOF had it’s simplicity sometimes, it gets annoying when u whiff specials/supers to often.

The motions and the reponsivness from the SF2 is pretty dope, I never have a case of bad exectution in turbo. I find pulling out supers to be prerty simple in turbo, in fact the only times I’ve ever had any execution related problems is usually with charge characters(I hate capcom charge characters). In KOF, because of the faster engine it seems like the imputs need to be in quicker…I dunno I’ve never had as much problems throwing a super as I have in KOF.

yesssssss!!!

more OG lessons from the past please.

mvc2
ssbm
ggac
vf5
st

no order.
keep the smash hate to yourselves.

Wow someone who thinks spacing and having to be good in spacing is universal in all games. Finally…