Most Skill Based Fighting Game?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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You can’t mash Tekken. I mean that’s the the must unmashfriendly game. EVER. I mean every ever. Sorry some one someone is mashing it’s round over, free EWGF, free Deathfist.

Gl0ry your my man. I don’t hate VF dude, I don’t. I have much respect for it. I just don’t see it being deeper than Tekken. Even, I could see that, but outright Deeper and taking so much more skill, no way. You’re right, I’ve never played Top level VF. It’s a valid point but then you bring up a point for me. If someone is reckless in Tekken they are going to pay, BIG TIME. If what you said about VF is true I mean I think that says to me that Tekken is the harder more skill based game because that level of spacing(VF is fought for the most part at point blank) makes the difference.

Again man maybe you could teach my some VF when R comes out and I’ll learn to play again but I don’t like the bashing Tekken’s been getting and this “VF>All” with no explination anoys me.

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We all know VF5R isn’t coming out :lol:.

Anyways, I decided to go back and read the OP’s original post.

"In your opinion what are the top three games where the skill gap between nubs and skilled players is the largest. "

In that context, VF is certainly not a top three game, because the skill gap between someone decent and someone at a high level isn’t to the point where you just sit there and get raped.

I would have to agree with you and say Tekken is definitely one of the top 3 games. I would also say Marvel is there. But that is only in context to what the original question was. In those games, someone who isn’t that good, or decent at best, will literally get mud stomped and probably even perfected several times.

The skill disparity in VF isn’t to the point where the person can’t even hit you. They can just side step a linear attack and at the very least, land some strikes on you. The oki game in VF allows a person who isn’t that great or at a severe disadvantage, a chance to fight back also.

I personally view VF as a thinking man’s fighting game and the skill comes from the constant yomi and decision making while fighting.

Like I said though, I guarantee you most people who are saying VF is the most skilled based game don’t even know why, or haven’t experienced it.

Edit: I forgot to mention one thing that was on my mind pertaining to the subject. The fact that in VF people don’t get mudstomped like it happens in a lot of other fighting game, definitely has to do with the balance of the game. The game isn’t really designed in a way where someone can just rape you constantly. That’s why the oki game is the way it is. It’s kind of a slow and methodical thought battle.

You had brought up the oki game being deeper in tekken and I don’t think I can agree with that. It’s certainly more dangerous, I’ll give you that. But just because there are more options doesn’t necessarily make it deeper. It’s more along the lines of being unbalanced if someone can capitalize to that extent, and relaunch you while you’re waking up. But again i’m not trying to take away from tekken, because I love that game. They’re just two very different games :lol:

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Gl0ry man your chill as always. That’s one of the things I like about you man. Sorry you can’t make it this Saturday. Once schools over though we will all have plenty of time to play together.

I don’t need to say anything else. Weather or not people agree with what I say or not doesn’t matter, Tekken takes a lot of skill IMHO and doesn’t get nearly enough credit. I guess that’s to be expect on SRK though.

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I think that’s the real issue here, but I may be wrong. If I solely played say, Tekken, and all I read was how VF was so much deeper/technical, I’d be upset. Cause Tekken takes a grip of skill (as you mentioned with spacing/execution). Lots of character knowledge (not so much matchups but what the other character can do that you have to watch out for. And as you said, there’s a ton of characters, all playable). Hearing VF all the time would make me question how much people know about Tekken. I would apply that thinking for all these situations. Many fighters deserve more credit than often given by the masses.

I see a lot of people put VF, but question how much some have played it, or really know why they put it. I personally feel VF holds title of most ‘skill’ required for highest levels of play (Based on VF5 experience and limited EVO experience and really casual days with 2 as a kid lol). It just has so many options and moments where thinking is required, and that’s on top of the sometimes strict execution requirements. But I don’t think it has the biggest gap between a brand new player and a veteran. I think now, with 5 more than ever, an ignorant player can do better against a veteran but the vereran will always win out/out perform/know more.

I’d say new players in VF5 can actually play the game right out of the gates, they just won’t do very well and lose consistently against good players. To me, the title of biggest gap between new players and top players would go to MvC2. Followed by ST, Tekken, annnd say AH, GG, I’d imagine some of the KoFs too. I haven’t played every fighter, and I haven’t played every fighter equally among the ones I have played to truly give a definitive list. Which is likely the same for everyone at this site. So that’s just what I feel would be the top list of games that you get the most beat up in when you first pick them up.

EDIT: Basically I repeated some of Gl0ry’s points which he worded really well in his post here http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=6539770&postcount=254. SRK folks will hang you for using the word “Yomi,” but it’s true, no other game I have experienced relies on yomi as much as VF, and that, to me, is what sets it apart at the highest levels.

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I’d say 1st is MvC2, that game speaks for itself. 2nd is Tekken, I’m not really good at the game, and any kind of mistake in spacing/movement/execution will result in harsh punishment against a skilled veteran. Next would be GG, very underated. There is lots of spacing, techwork, execution, and situational stuff that clearly puts newer players at an immediate disadvantage to a skilled player. The punishment aren’t often as harsh as the other 2, but will have you regretting what you did wrong.

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Good shit to gl0ry and KrsJin, great posts.

Sup guys.

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Ye because mashing will get you far. :rofl:

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For a while, Tekken was my favorite 3D fighter game. Since Tekken 2, I played the hell out of the series, because I found it to be more fun than the first few VF games. But then I played VF4 Evo, and it really blew my mind.

One of the first things that stuck out to me was how throwing was a big part of the gameplay in Virtua Fighter, whereas in Tekken, it has taken somewhat of a backseat to striking and juggling. With throws having a heavier importance in the gameplay, VF felt much more mental to me, mixing up highs, mids, lows, circular attacks, and alternating different throws on offense, and learning how to defend against these with things like Fuzzy guarding, ETE/ETEG, and so on. Escaping throws required that you not only know the likely kinds of throws that your opponent’s character uses, but also your opponent’s habits. In competitive play, alternating your throws becomes really important, because it lessens the chance that your opponent will escape them.

In addition, I feel that Virtua Fighter’s defense system is much more complex than Tekken’s. Guarding, evading, sabakis, reversals, and parrying, are used, and used OFTEN, which makes defending in Virtua Fighter feel much more of an active effort. Tekken feels much more of an offense oriented game to me, (searching for opportunities to punish your opponent’s unsafe move and commencing oki games), with not as much depth and complexity in its defense system.

Finally, I don’t like the fact that many moves in Tekken do not get much use in competitive play (unblockables, multi-link throws, 10-hit strings, etc.). In Virtua Fighter, I feel that I am using much more of a character’s move set than when I play Tekken.

Don’t get me wrong, I still love Tekken. I think it takes a lot of skill to play it at the competitive level, I just personally feel that Virtua Fighter has a certain depth during competitive play that isn’t seen in Tekken.

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JBA is my fav, but I definitely wouldn’t call it most skillrequiring. There’s something to get out of it for a few levels of play and it’s not that over-whelming, even with the crazy combos and wake-ups.

Not sure how many people would be equipped enough to agree or disagree, but I would say Weaponlord is a strong candidate.

Other than that, Marvel and ST both have the degree of skill requirement to be considered the ‘most’, being that they are not only steep, but various. The main difference in the two (IMO), is that the mental fencing in both games are centered differently: ST can be brutal, though in it, it feels more like you are playing against the person, rather than the character and potential strategies of that character. What I mean by this is that, there are situations that are a lot less set in stone. Of course it is heavily match-upy and options determined on who you’re fighting, but there is less an emphasis on character agenda and more on playing MORE intelligently than the other person (in more situations).
Now forgive me if you’re thinking I said Marvel doesn’t require any intelligence, but the POP factor just really overshadows the subtlety of the mindgames in the pace of it (they are definitely there). A lot of times, you will be simply making patterns just to test an opponent’s boldness in order to bait an execution or opportunity. He can either cover up his knowledge of what you’re doing by counter-baiting, try to out-bold you by diliberately taking the bait (if it’s a low consequense gambit) in order to lower your assumptions of his knowledge (some people call this a hussel) so that he can set up a better opportunity, or simply fall for it, etc. This being compounded by the creative options that assist types give.
A simple, but not extensive example of this is seen commonly in Sentinel flying games. Also, right before a lockdown set up, you can get this split second mind-game when the person decides what to answer with. I’m sure everyone is familiar with the fast-paced stuff of the game that requires timing and execution, if you’ve ever seen any low jab lead into a dead character or spiral trap perfectly announced. Even simply having a character come in after a fallen one can include lots of intelligence fighting, whether it’s guard-break guessing game or mind-****ing the person with the threat of wall-hidden projectiles from BH on entrance.

I have to admit, I don’t touch 3D fighters. And not that I don’t think they require any skill to play, but I simply can’t enjoy them to the same extent. They feel very linear to me (ironically) and I get bored after learning juggles and figuring out basic ways to land clean hits in situations. So this is based on what I’ve personally played, extensively (to level where I feel ‘learned’), which is just probably MVC/2, ST, 3S, HNK, SBX, GG, AH, XvS and some older titles that probably not worth considering

Timing, Space, Execution, Dexterity, Inter-game knowledge, Muscle Memory, Judgement, and planning; of course they’re in many games, but I feel Marvel has the most varying and stressfully extensive amount ratios of all elements, overall~

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VF has it’s own spacing game. Getting about quickly is harder in general but it can make a big difference to certain characters. Also there’s more in the defensive game giving both defender and attacker more to think about. There’s also less safe powerful moves and most of the launchers require a CH. Pre VF5 there were a many more unsafe moves forcing you to improve your defense, hit checking and frame knowledge and there was ARE but their now making the game easier. I expect anyone who could master ARE and full speed movement in the VF4 series would consistently destroy lesser players.

Glory’s summing up of VF is true because in nearly every situation something always beats something else so your constantly having to outwit your opponent even when at a big advantage. Doesn’t the thinking/strategy in VF make it an ideal game for Sirlin?

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While Tekken can be pretty technical at high levels, most of the time (and all the time if you are intermediate or lower) you can pretty much discard all theory bullshit and go for Launcher -> most damaging combo you can do. Sometimes you don’t even have to worry about learning the best combo, with Hwoarang for example you can do LKx4 and deal over 50 dmg, which is pretty good for something so stupidly easy. At casual levels you can just pick Eddy and not even look at the screen, you might win anyways (I’ve seen it happen). To say it’s more technical than VF is fallacy.

VF is technical from the get go, from the moment you start you HAVE to know some theory bullshit or you will barely be able to move your character. Great combos won’t happen, wins won’t happen, the game will feel and look slow and stupid, which leads many to believe the game actually IS slow and stupid when the problem lies in the beginner player’s skills. There’s no “Eddy” in this game, not even Lei Fei regardless of what people say. Lion, who is a pretty basic character, has several stances, reversals and other shit to keep in mind, stuff that actually make a difference in fights of any level. And at high levels, VF is breathtaking and demanding like few other games can be.

I’m no expert at either game, but I read and played on both sides of the fence, so take this for a simple observer’s opinion.

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Most skilled would be Virtual fighter then Street fighter then MK then again those are the only games i played

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I’d say ST, 3rd Strike, and GGAC. My favorite fighting game at the moment is SFIV, but I do admit the gap between skilled and inexperienced players isn’t quite as big. Then again, I actually prefer that to a game like ST where a noob isn’t even given the allusion that they may stand a chance. Just because a fighter is easier to learn that doesn’t make it inferior.

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Nicely done.

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sf3!!!

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I don’t see how people aren’t pointing to SFII as having a huge gap from moderate to Top lvl play. Imo, it is one of the Top 3 FG’s with the gap differential’s, because basing this on my own experiences, back in my “prime years” playing SFII (CE/HF) etc, etc.

I was very solid, meaning that when I entered in the majority of the tournaments that I played in, I wasn’t a one-turn wash out against most solid SFII players. However up against the SFII Elites…I was a complete and utter joke seriously, no need to even talk about Watson, Jeff, Tomo or what not (Those guys were super-elites), however just against the players whom were far better then solid, but not as good as the true super elite top SFII player names that were being thrown around back then, and you saw a whole world of difference.

It was just absolute murder, because they would out footsie you, react better then you, and downright punish you for every single small mistake you did. You have no idea how frustrating it is, when everytime you throw out whiffed sweep or c.mk with Ryu, you get punished 99% of the time for doing so. The brutality was unbelievable because in many cases, it’s not like how it is today to where you see these huge gigantic combos land, however they just methodically picked at you to pieces (SFII footsies is tough as nails to master mind you), slowly pushing you to the corner and allowing you to do nothing, while completely owning your every mistake.

Again, the gaps from solid player to top in SFII is very dramatic, and also, I agree with MvC2, my goodness, the gaps are insane in there as well.

With Tekken though the game hasn’t taken as much balls to play from Tekken 5 onward. Even many top Tekken players in T5 and T6 have stated that the gaps between a solid to top player have been lessened, due to the overall accessibility and over priority to landing launches/hopkicks/crushes etc, etc that can lead to half-life dealing juggles and a devastating wallsplat. Think about it here for a second…everytime you do a down+low jab, it can ultimately lead to you losing 60% of your life, the trade off is ridiculous considering jab damage vs 60 damage %.

Now if you were talking about a game like Tekken Tag, now that’s a game in which the differential from a solid to Top-Lvl player is huge, I remember going to Extravanganza back in the Tag days, I was a solid TTT player back then, however I got completely eaten alive by Slips, whom eventually beat Jop at the end. The gaps in there were insane, however even from Top-Player to Top-Player you saw the results, guys like Jang Iksu were just unreal and a clear cut above even the other Top-Tekken palyers in how they controlled and dominated. Even to this very day, I’ve never seen as beautiful of a controlled Mishima as Jang did back in the Tag era.

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You have a point. Don’t get me wrong, I do like Tekken and you don’t need all of your tools to win at VF, but what I meant was that a Tekken fighter has more “worthless” moves in his/her moveset then a VF character. But this seems to change a bit with the later Tekken games.

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Damn good thread

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Gundam battle assault!!!

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GBA Gundam Seed!