You have a point. I’ve never aimed to Kongo the fireball when he jumps in, but I sometimes Kongo early to counter a jumping attack, and whiff the Kongo while the fireball snails its way forward, and still hits like a truck.
I made it a standard to Kongo his air-fireballs in Vanilla, but with the new Kongo, I just don’t bother no more. It requires an EX to be 50% reliable, and that’s not worth it.
There is so god-damn much match-up specific shit in SFIV. It’s just a game, so let’s go easy on the “depth”… aye…?? :rolleyes: There are so many moves that have invulvernable start-up, and then some that have invulvernability to fireballs, and some that have it at the feet, or the big-captain toe, it’s become a big mess…
Be wary of kongo-ing Akuma’s fireball if he is landing as it is about to hit. He can jump over the kongo zone and still punish you. The timing is hard to explain but there is a good time to kongo an air fireball and then there is a really, really bad time to do it. I got decimated by an Akuma yesterday. Didn’t take one single match. Granted, I was playing drunken Gouken style which is both stubbornly dumb and rewardingly random…but no good against a clear headed, spot on Akuma.
I am disillusioned with cr.lk as Gouken’s savior vs flip palm or even flip throw. Last time I played a very good, vortexy Akuma (dhocke-PSN), I was not able to get the cr.lk animation to even start for the majority of the times I was getting palmed or thrown. The Akuma must make a mistake imho.
Close st mk is good if the df palm is too deep u can sometimes hit him bc the knee has 3 frame start up… Other than that just block and get out of the vortex…
I’ve been fighting a really competent Akuma who will get in my face with pressure and then after every blockstring instantly start charging focus. I didnt’ catch on to what he was doing for a good 4-5 matches but then started trying to do raw LP palm. Then he would just start backdashing and try to sweep me.
What are you supposed to do against this? Mash jab? LK > LP Palm?
cr mp -> fb can actually get blown up fairly consistently by focus. Gouken’s fireball is slow enough that he can get clipped by the focus before the fireball can come out. I don’t think I need to talk about the risks with parry, every gouken player should know by now. Gflip is an awkward answer to a straightforward problem, it also not foolproof. Use at own discretion.
You’re right, it can get blown up, it’s one tool of many to consider. If you do anything repetitiously it can and will get countered. The reason I recommended it was to try and catch the Akuma, when he backdashes out of Focus to go for sweep, with the hado.
I offer you, from what I’ve seen on here, the first possible practical application of normal -> cancel to parry (since a FA ignores hit stun) and you cite that parry has risks associated with it? You’re absolutely right, let’s take parry out of the Gouken playbook, too risky. Let’s also note that this is actually an elegant alternative to the problem you cited with doing mp -> hado since his focus attack (which would have hit during the the start-up frames on your hado) now hits during the 1 frame start-up of the parry.
Why is it an awkward answer? The idea is it puts you over them forcing them to dash out since you’re no longer in the hittable space for their FA forcing them to dash out of their focus or take hits.
Ah it’s coming together, you wanted the **foolproof **solution. Why didn’t you guys just say so? Of course everyone knows what the foolproof solution is in this situation right?
I notice that you cite dash throw as one of your two possible answers. Interesting to me that the solution you posed would actually still get blown up by the poster’s comment that his Akuma will occasionally backdash and sweep. Nice call.
Good luck Techno, I’m done here. I didn’t realize we were searching for foolproof solutions and that footsy range is way too dangerous for Gouken to play in.
Haha those are actually all solid options I didn’t think of during the match. I think with the way he was using focus, a C.LK/C.MP MP parry would have worked. The range I’m talking about is after hard knock down in the corner, he would demon flip palm/kick and then block string out with normals and forego the fireball and instantly start focusing. So about 1 character distance away. Obviously I would have just backdashed if it was an option but I was cornered.
I tried C.MP > Hado a few times but his focus would still hit the tip of my hitbox and depending on how long he held the focus, get a crumple, then it was lights out. I do need man up and go for dash up throw more though, that’s true.
Why are you getting pissy?
It’s pretty much a given that with a certain risk/reward ratio, you need to be selective when you use those certain tactics. You can use those all day long, they can work, I can say dash throw is safer. Even if the opponent reacts to the dash and rips the focus, the throw comes out fast enough to snag him right out of it. forward dash, gets thrown. Backwards dash, back to neutral, you gain ground. This is forward throw only mind you, back throw might be slow enough, but it should still do the job.
You can complain all you want, but it’s that line of thinking that leads to a retarded lack of fundamentals. You can be disappointed in me all you want, but Im willing to prove it to you, with a lot of characters.
I’m getting pissy because your post was condescending and made vague statements like “awkward solution to a straightforward problem” or “every gouken player should know by now.”
I couldn’t agree more that there is a risk reward factor, which is why I’m boggled at comments like “I don’t think I need to talk about the risks with parry” and “Gflip is an awkward answer to a straightforward problem, it also not foolproof” and then reiterate your dash throw approach that I explained gets blown up by the scenario Techno is describing (backdash out of FA into sweep).
So you’re just saying you don’t play footsies against half (or however many “a lot of characters” is) of the character cast? And you’re going to chastise me on “retarded fundamentals?”
It is a awkward solution to a straightforward problem. Far too many times I’ve seen other Goukens toss out a raw demonflip to “crossup” against a standing opponent and get away with it because the opponent isn’t used to the timing of it, letting the Gouken player catch a whiffed throw or normal. Whenever I play against them, I make sure they get punished. Demonflip is not guaranteed, and you only catch them if they don’t know the timing or get legitimately caught off guard. Usually most opponents don’t get caught off guard, then after they learn the timing, you can’t really use the tactic anymore.
I didn’t bother to comment on the parry solution because every Gouken player knows the risks with kongo, use at discretion was the word of advice there. Dash throw is decently hard enough to react to. If the player has good enough reactions to back dash the FA when you dash, you can replace throw with a sweep, which will clip em during the back dash in best situation or trade if you mistimed sweep or something.
Really? You’re just going to assume I don’t play footsies? I can understand if I came off condescending, but really, meet me halfway at least.
I’ve never had someone dash out of an FA to punish a demon flip that crossed them up on reaction. Show me this in a match and I’ll concede this willingly.
I still think normal cancel to kongo is creative and useful here, blast it all you want. I’m glad the dash solution was adapted to fit the situation Techno described, the sweep sounds like a good option, although I’m not convinced from block string distance (which as I said before can be a fairly wide breadth depending on the string) you won’t get a whiff and counter-swept. All situational, as all the options we are discussing here are.
Curious to know how you interpret your comment:
To me that sounds like it’s too dangerous to play footsies against players with a half-decent focus, so, since they can (presumably) start focusing at anytime I don’t see how you can plausibly play footsies there.
I’ll leave it at this, if you’re going to make condescending comments (not sure if you and I agree on the tone of your first message, but I suppose I don’t need you to agree with me on that) then expect some pretty critical comments coming back at you. I’ve been a SRK reader for longer than I’ve been a member, and I felt like you’ve had some insightful contributions before, so I’m a bit butthurt that my ideas got a flippant 4 sentence response. A response that then required prompting to get a follow-up explanation as to why they aren’t good options, since the first post implied that “any gouken should know this.” Alright I’m done spamming the thread, AmigoOne whatever you respond with I’ll read and ingest, but I’ll keep my mouth shut and let them get back to the business of solving a shitty match-up.
I dont wanna disrupt the argument here because its entertaining me bored at work lol (just joking), but I think a sound solution would be to queue up your own focus. If he lets go a level 2, you absorb, let go and get a crumple. If you see him actually going for a level three then backdash and he’s dead. The only hole in that option is he MAY forward dash out of his focus and do st.hk but this is providing he is a smart player and/or has been hit by the aforementioned a few times previously in the fight. Even then depending on how long you were holding your focus you might be able to release a level 3, eat one hit of the st.hk and fuck his world up. Also a forward dash would be a bit risky on his part with you focusing so this should nullify him focus threatening you.
Short answer: You see him focus, you focus then react to whatever he does at that point.
Ummm…palm him? What the hell with all this bitching? Akuma gets under everyone’s skin, I guess.
Techno…mp palm him. No cr.mp this or flip that. Raw fucking palm him. You’ll catch focus and you’ll beat backdash sweep. When he starts to learn (but not before he tries blind, raw ultra) that doing the same thing every time after a block string is a really bad idea, then you have your breathing room. Until then enjoy the damage, stun, and knockdown.
Alternatively, you could dash sweep yourself, you know. If he’s back dashing (25 frames,crap distance) and you are forward dashing (16 frames,good distance), you are +9 frames minus whatever blockstun he left you in…
Thats an excellent options also. But be weary that theres a hole in that direction also. If he lets go trying to catch you pushing buttons you get crumpled. I guess this discussion just proves that theres no one stop shop. Just read your opponent, if he sees you doing something to counter what he’s doing he’s gonna switch. Just switch after he switches.