Also, it’s quite funny you have the balls to tell me to learn the matchup as you are over here begging for info. Go do some legwork son, they have a training option in the game.
I get what you’re saying and we need all the help we can get. I have played Akumas that don’t throw the fireball correctly and yes, you can palm through it or ex tatsu but a good akuma times it to hit you meaty. They can also cross you up with the fireball. You can kongo it but good akumas are not in the counter zone to get hit by it kind of like good guiles know to throw a slow sonic boom when close and jump in on you…you counter but they are too high up to get hit so they come down and smash you.
You are right, it is absolutely about reaction, focus, and reading the opponent. One small slip can cost him half his life. The match up still is not in our favor. I have never caught a good akuma with ex tatsu on their wake up pressure. He blocks, I go crazy copter into the atmosphere and he taunts and then demons me or cr.lk>cr.lp>cr.mp xx lk.tatsu > lp. shoryu FADC 3 hit red fireball and I yell at the monitor about how this is bullshit lol. It is not a good option. Maybe I’m not good enough but if he can time a hammerfist to be safe vs. dee jay, guy, even ken…our ex tatsu is nothing.
Breathe dog…breathe.
Nah fuck that, I’m sick of people saying learn the matchup when they don’t know the fucking matchup.
People who have abusive shit on other characters love saying this shit. Oh what? No way to escape? Learn the matchup! What the FUCK does learning there is no way out do to help you? It’s fucking insulting, you are basically telling someone that they are just whining and they don’t take the time to try and discover stuff. It’s even more insulting when a fucking guy who clearly doesn’t know everything there is to know about the matchup, as evidenced by him asking for answers, says it. It’s completely ironic and retarded.
In order to say learn the matchup there has to be something more to learn. Suppose I’m playing a character that can hit a button and boom I die, what else can I learn? When you say learn the matchup, you are implying that there is something more to this matchup that the person has not discovered and you know.
Nowadays every scrub and their mother belts it out to make it seem as if they are some top tier pro. Fuck out of here.
Like I said in another post, it’s easy to talk big when you’re the guy on top.
Anyway, back on topic.
If some of you didn’t know, EX tatsu is immune to fireballs after it has locked on to the target. So if Akuma does an air fireball or EX air fireball and you lock him with tatsu, the fireballs will pass through you. It was something I was unsure of but just verified it now. I knew about ground fireballs but I just figured that has to do with the 7 frames of invuln.
Read what you wrote, one more time: you went as far as picking on my Gouken mate, whom I mentioned only to say I’d have shared info with him. Hell, you even tried to make fun of my nickname. You went berserk because someone on the internet said you were wrong. Good game man.
I honestly wouldn’t waste even one second of my time to help someone who’s trying his hardest to be the ultimate douchebag, but I’m sure there’s people who’d enjoy reading what someone who plays the other character, so let me tell you this: the only Goukens a skilled Akuma player respect is those who’s gameplay is solid, those who know when to stay put and when to take risks.
Someone skilled with Akuma laughs at Goukens who try to do stuff like jumping or reversaling on wakeup, because that just shows that they clearly ignore our game and can only think of how to beat Akuma’s options. Goukens like you I guess, since in all your posts you’re asking for options to beat Akuma and his palm, “level 3 reversal” and nonsense like that.
You’re just obsessed with beating the thing that you totally ignore (hence your lac of matchup knowledge) two very basic things:
- Akuma’s vortex ends when he gets blocked
- Akuma, unlike Gouken, cannot afford many risks
What does this mean? It’s easy: you just block. Yep, block. That’s your best friend.
Akuma’s only safe option against Gouken is the palm, since not only it allows for safejumps (also divekick under certain circumstances, but that’s impossible with Gouken’s 1f counter) and OSs, it also beats the counter.
This is no vanilla where Akuma was actually broken to the bone, and could OS stuff off his DF throw, now there’s 17 frame recovery. That is huge. DF throw is easily beat by basically anything with invincibility or with airborne frames - heck, you can even Ultra Akuma for that, he won’t recover fast enough.
Knowing that Gouki is most likely going for the palm (since he can’t take risk a grab that often) gives you a greater chance of stopping the vortex game. When you block the palm in fact, Akuma is still in advantage (he’s the one attacking), but he’s no more in position to actually threaten you since all he’s got there is his up close pressure - which is far from being the best in the game lacking a grounded command grab or divekick (Rufus, Yun type) pressure. Will he fish for counterhits? Just tech late. Will he try an overhead? React to that.
Keep also in mind that DF throw shoudn’t be used when canceling from a normal, since every character in the game can just neutral jump and hit Akuma in the air - only exception for this is a st.HP reset from LK Tatsu, and that’s only for slow reversal characters.
I know what you’re thinking there: “I block, he grabs me”. That’s how the vortex goes, and what’s scary about it. But unlike Akuma you actually have some health and can (assuming you’re not on ultra low health and cannot be hit) can take some risks.
Would you rather eat a full punish because you stupidly tried to reversal a safejump (something you should recognize as a decent player), or get hit for 150 damage/stun because you decided to stay put expecting a palm?
You’d have to be stupid to ignore such odds, plain and simple. Or you just didn’t know about them, which would then be your fault for lacking matchup knowledge. In your case it’s clearly the second, since you’re trying to make this matchup look like the Yun-Sim one (which is horrendous) only to cover your faults.
This is preposterous. Do you seriously think you can keep updated with everything players uncover in this game? Do you realize that (see below) I asked that because I didn’t think that would work? (see below)
And I’d like to stress, having knowledge of the matchup is different from knowing every possible trick up your opponent sleeve.
When I say that you lack matchup knowledge, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you don’t know what you character can do (which was your take there), but also that you may not fully understand your opponent’s options (what I wrote above).
You basically lack your opponents mindset, which would allow you to exploit the very few openings Akuma’s vortex allows. You lack this, and blame the matchup.
Which IS tough for Gouken, nobody would dare deny that, but it’s very far from being impossible. One mistake by Akuma and he pays for up to half of his health. That’s what balances things out, coupled with Akuma’s horrendous stun off b&b and DF options. It’s not enough to make it even, but it’s still very much winnable.
Oh really? I’ll give you a hint: it’s called “Recently Active Threads”, it’s on the top left of the page.
That’s how I got here, I literally stumbled upon this thread, and felt like asking about the cr.LK thing (because you know, I do have hope SRK community isn’t made only of selfish whiners like you), since to my knowledge the palm didn’t have any trouble reaching lower hitboxes.
And sorry to burst your bubble, but: just hit the lab, it doesn’t work. As long as Akuma times it right, you either get CH’d or simply hit. Tried even with turbo not to screw with first possible active frames. You don’t evade shite. Not only that, but even if the thing worked, it would allow for divekick openings which are the only way for Akuma to deal massive stun in combos.
By the way, it seems like you didn’t even try the thing in training mode (hence, don’t accuse me of being lazy), since you couldn’t understand what iceman3089 was saying in his post #60. If you record the setup (everything finishing in sweep, then meaty DF Palm) and position Gouken slightly differently so that the distance varies, it may happen that Akuma lands on the other side and Gouken is stuck with his cr.LK recovery.
It’s 8 frames invincibility. 7 it’s the startup. I do my homeworks. Or at the very least I can type. :>
Just to point out a couple things: you can’t safejump Ken. His LP and HP DP are 3 frames.
Also, if you see an Akuma using b&b > LP Shoryu FADC HP (3 hit) Shaku he’s either a scrub or is trolling you. Since SSF4 Akuma’s trademark LP Shoryu FADC 3 hit Shaku became worthless, they nerfed the damage to the point a 2 bar combo deals less damage and stun (actually same damage, slightly less stun) than a combo ending in EX Shoryu (1 bar).
You just use MP Shoryu FADC LP Shakunetsu when gaining those +60 stun can actually help in stunning the opponent, which hardly every happens sadly, or go all out with LP DP xx EX Shaku > EX Tatsu to win the round/match (4 bars to add like 40 damage).
I lol’d at the ‘I go crazy copter into the atmosphere and he taunts and then demons me’ thing though :'D
TLDR version?
EDit: Actually, I’ll get around to reading it at some point, if for nothing else, just to see all these neat techniques you know for escaping hammerfist loop.
Also I read the first few lines, I didn’t insult your friend, I didn’t make fun of your name (mere coincidence), and I still think you’re an asshole for insulting people just cause they make the decision to not want to share something with you.
Man up.
Wrong. Don’t quote me on this but you can safe jump all but MP I believe.
Eh nope. MP is 4f, same for EX DP, those are safejumpable being 4 framers. LP and HP are 3 frames and you can’t. Just look it up on the frame data.
Ken’s wakeup is also standard.
Here.
[media=youtube]nMrJgecOduw[/media]
Bye.
Parting gift. Not everything is frame data.
Lol, it’s written in the description that it doesn’t safejump Ken’s fierce DP. The other ones, should just depend on the range of the move by the 3rd active frames.
Trip guard, not just frame data.
So your solution is to block standing and just let akuma throw gouken every time? Ya, I don’t think so.
The point of the cr.lk is to use it sparingly to punish akumas that bring out the palm too early, expecting to hit a standing gouken. It’s obviously not a get-out-of-jail-free card. What it IS, is Gouken’s only punish for a miss-timed df.palm that doesn’t involve a roflcopter. Otherwise it’s just more mixup bullshit despite the bad play.
I said it doesn’t safe jump one of them, SORRY I messed up and said MP instead of HP even though I said don’t quote me on it.
Trip guard? Trip guard is when you don’t attack. I’m pretty sure he clearly attacks there. I understand WHY the safe jump works but you said 3 framers can’t be safe jumped, and they can. Evil Ryu has a 3 frame srk. He get’s safe jumped all day in the vid.
You have quite the imagination and selective memory, it’s pretty powerful when all put together.
I didn’t say you block all the time (heck you even quoted me lol), I explained why it’s the option which is most likely to get you out of there.
But hey, to each his own I guess, it’s not like I can force you to do that. It just makes my time easier if you keep doing stuff on wakeup (look at iceman vid, I should do some commentary on that), I get to score damage.
Akuma shouldn’t be doing the palm that high, you’d want to be as close to the ground as possible to reduce the risk of whiffs and maximize the frame advantage on block.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but in the bolded part you’re basically saying “at least I can punish him if he screws up”, right? Honestly I don’t see why one’d resort to this.
I mean, you’re betting on your opponent to actually mistime his attack, potentially getting blown up by a delayed divekick which opens up for an easy 290 meterless combo in hard knockdown. Even if it’s not a divekick, you’ll eat a palm or a throw. It’s essentially allowing the opponent to get free damage, it can’t be good. It’s also not like you can actually react to such scenario.
Now there might be a an application for this, and that is when Gouki purposely whiffs his palm to go into the H/L mixup with cr.LK.
I’ll try it n the lab and let you know.
You know, it’d be great if you stopped the arrogant talk.
I’m actually pretty happy I got here and saw the vid because I learnt something, and that is that there do exist 3f safejumps, it’s just that they are hitbox/hurtbox dependant.
I said trip guard to refer to that article where it explains how it works. I do know he attacked there, it’d be an empty jump otherwise. :>
Ok cmon guys let it rest with the insults.
D4gz0r, Gouken’s weaknesses really get peeled out in the open with Akuma’s palm due to the fact that even when blocked, Gouken is still in a horrible position. Up close and Gouken still gets wrecked. With akuma, it usually means back into the vortex. Gouken doesn’t have any safe way to deal with pressure. Most of the time Kongo is our only solution and thats riskier than an SRK because we have to guess high/low and gets beaten by throw. Our slow ass normals don’t allow us to even do small punishes/stuff your normals.
Now I personally found the low vs high health thing complete bullshit before this argument. I’m going to sound fairly angry so don’t take offence since its going to be part rant.
We can make mistakes? 1000 health vs 850 health. Thats only 150 health. It’s a bit ironic, but I can’t resist and so Im going to have to quote you.
"Would you rather eat a full punish because you stupidly tried to reversal a safejump (something you should recognize as a decent player), or get hit for 150 damage/stun because you decided to stay put expecting a palm?"
That’s the exact difference right there, 1 of the tiniest mistake and we’re completely even on health. In your situation the Gouken was technically playing it safe too. Yea, we can totally make a lot more mistakes than you.
The usual counterargument is Gouken does huge damage, thats true.
On paper all the options and numbers and theories, it plays out as balanced. Big damage vs little damage. In actual play, it’s not nearly as much.
Gouken needs the big mistake to make that damage. Akuma doesn’t. Akuma can create the situation to exploit. Gouken can’t.
At higher level play, those huge mistakes just don’t happen. You know that as well.
Gouken can’t do small punishes up close, no good player will give him the opportunity to do big punishes. He ends up as a half baked character.
That’s not “not knowing the matchup”.
That IS the matchup.
Tis the way of Gouken :\
This is all starting to sound like my parents before they got a divorce.
Reipin-You know your stuff usually and I’ve taken a lot of your advice to heart but your delivery leaves much to be desired. You can be a grumpy, offensive person.
New dragon guy-Thanks for popping in, but stop trying to antagonize Reipin, K? Call truce or leave it be.
Amigo-Yeah, we know. After playing a very high level Sagat player for 3+ hours straight yesterday, I’m pretty sure Gouken is no where near a complete and viable character but I will still work to improve. Ha, in that match up, Gouken doesn’t even have more health so what’s that argument about anyway. I’d pull off back throw ultra and look at Sagat’s life bar and curse in my head because I still had to hit him some more to knock him out and this is not easy to do vs. psycho beast Sagat.
[/quote]
Thanks for taking some time and writing your post, I appreciated it. And no, you didn’t sound angry or anything, it’s just your take on the matter and I respect it.
Health wise, in my opinion your being just too optimistic with the whole “one hit and we’re even” thing. If that was the case, Seth would’ve been a tourney character since SSF4. After all, a single combo and he’s even, right? It just doesn’t work that way sadly, and being a low health char in a game were you lose up to 50 % (even more actually with some characters) health off a FADCable reversal or punish (or a throw in Gouken’s case) is a serious disadvantage, which is of course balanced out with other strenghts.
Strictly speaking of Akuma’s damaging options, I already mentioned that the biggest ones come off a divekick or a jump in, which is probably the hardest to land and the riskiest (if it’s an apex divekick you can easily react with kongo, and apex divekick are how you set crossups in corner) against Gouken. Aside from that, all you can hit is a 200 damage vortex b&b, a 150 damage throw and a a 110 damage palm. Even if I land,say, a crossup tatsu into sweep, DF throw and a sweep b&b all you’ve lost is half health. Want to know about stun? 625, 2 more DF throws wouldn’t be enough.
So I won’t agree with you there: you can suffer some hits, and you can take some risks. Gouken of course lacks in the b&b department, but it doesn’t mean he cannot land hits at all - and Bullcat doesn’t fight scrubs only, YouTube is there to prove it.
Those openings happen even during top level play. Sure, not like on lower level plays (see below), but that’s true also for the case of who’s defending (Gouken in this case), meaning you won’t break a top player defense that easily.
Yet still perfection doesn’t apply in this kind of games, so you can never expect a mistake not to be made even if we’re talking about characters with pretty much every tool in the game (Seth, Akuma).
You know, your view of the matchup might not be the same as mine, someone else will see it still differently and eventually someone else will come and still have a different take on the matter. I can’t really argue with that, I don’t think anyone would really expect people who main different characters to easily agree on a matchup - especially when it comes to tough matchups like this. Or at the very least, I don’t expect anyone to completely agree with me here. However, the posts to which I replied went just overboard (the Sim vs Yun thing, hope you guys played or watched that), and that’s why I felt to share my opinion.
So no, that’s not “the matchup”. That was what some guy frustrated with the matchup and wanted others to share his opinion.
Just scroll up a bit, read the post by iceman: “this matchup is a nightmare” “i’m on the floor and it’s over” “hammerfist hits me 90 % of the time”. As a Gouki mainer I then click on the video, only to see this Gouken player with several flaws in his game.
First, he gets totally blown up by palm whiffs into cr.LK alone, something you just have to block low. I wish players actually fell for those that easily - hell, lots of those palm whiff crossup weren’t that ambiguous, on some Akuma could have only landed on front, you can’t just get hit for free by those.
He said “I’m on the floor and it’s over”. Watch the video again: he didn’t even have to put him on the floor (Tatsu > Sweep, he whiffed some too), Hammer just went for resets, and majority of the time he followed with palm. Say, how many times did he go for a DF Throw? Once in 3 matches, and he even backdashed out of it. That’s exactly why I said that blocking is a very viable option.
But no, iceman starts to panic and goes for stuff after resets, 2 EX fullscreen flip throw in a row, like, 5 EX Flip on wakeup (you know we got OS for that thing too, right? Luckily for him Hammer didn’t use any), gets stunned risking a kongo on the most obvious safejump ever and so on. Didn’t see a single EX Tatsu even when he had 3 bars and attacks weren’t safejumps. A couple times (4:49, 4.58) he remembers to block palms and guess what: he gets Gouki off him. He even gets to throw him - he just cannot capitalize.
If that was everything that would’ve been okay, but he also failed to tech every throw (6) in 3 matches, couldn’t punish a single teleport (no OS in inputs) allowing the opponent to escape for free, nj’d a lot and tried risky stuff like full screen flips, resets and palms many times because his offense is lacking and has to rely on gimmicks. Not only this, but iceman failed in every possible opening: punishing with forward throws (and no safejump following), huge stuff like… 4x cr.LP (even after a divekick, where you can pretty much go for blockstring into cr.HP xx fireball, which is +2 on block), he also screws up the ultra not once but twice. Even execution wise he’s not on par.
So, after I watch this vid I couldn’t possibly agree with a “this matchup is nightmare”, not with that coming from him at least. The only nightmarish thing is the skill gap and matchup knowledge between the two players, which is only widened by the matchup being in Akuma’s favour. He’s not a bad player at all and his opponent was strong, he just has to get better at it.
Now take a look takinflight’s video: he sets up a DP whiff from the sweep (I know about that cause at first I used to fall for it a lot) and punishes Akuma for about 50 % health. Next round, he hitconfirms into st.MP, cr.HP etc, goes for air parry into throw to bait long range AAs. Even leaving lots of opening he gets a throw and kills the guy.
Sure he jumped way too much and made some gutsy read, and of course that Akuma was gutter trash (Tatsu into Shoryu against a 80 % health Gouken? Not going for a single Tatsu > Sweep or resets 3 times in a round? :/), but he still did his homeworks.
Both videos prove very little as far as the matchup goes (iceman’s one, you get to see a good Akuma hammering a poor soul, takingflight’s one you see Gouking killing a novice Akuma with a couple combos), but at least in one of those you see Gouken doing a couple of smart things. (Edit: actually Iceman did good with j.MP against flips, forgot to mention that)
Heh, I wish someone popped once in a while to share some insights in our section. 
I’m done “hating” on the guy (he didn’t even bother reading my post lol - made me a sadpanda), I told him I actually appreciated the safejump video, we were talking about safejumps in Gouki’s board there just a while ago.
I wouldn’t mind, but I don’t think theirs really much of anything to share with akuma players, its a good match for him, a shit one for us.
Looking for some pointers in this match up. I have a friend who plays Akuma and he teleports out of 70% of my knockdowns. What are some good jump in option selects to put against him? I’ve been trying HP Palm but most of the time he teleports in the opposite direction. I also already know about the st.MP > Hadoken option selects into Denjin, EX Tatsu, EX Palm.