Can someone link me or just tell me exactly what it takes to make vega lose his claw or mask? (dmg, stun, blocks, etc). I checked the basics thread and didn’t see it listed in the OPs.
Hm that’s is really a good question, and I am ashamed to say: I really do not know!
All I can say is that the mask never comes off of blocked moves, and if I have ~20 percent health left in a round I lost my mask and claw at least once.
I will hit the training room tonight for sure if not somebody beats me to it.
I know Claw comes off at 16 hits or blocks. I don’t know the mask.
So back from the lab. Prof, you are not quite right.
The claw comes off at 501 damage the mask at ** 771** damage. IF you do not block a single move.
As for blocked strikes here it gets a little complicated. It seems a blocked hit is counted as damage internally but with different (though minor) properties. The “block damage” is between 9 for heavy(?) and 10 for light(?) standing moves. So it does take 51 sLP or 56 sHP to take of the claw (and at least 77 blocked hits to take of the mask). I did not test crouching and focus blocks. The damage is cumulated, so if you got hit four times by sHP (480 damage) and block the next three hits (27 - 30 damage?) the claw comes off.
Chip damage either counts as normal damage if it is over 10 damage or as “block damage” if the chip is under 10 damage. I do not think the damage is added together here.
Stun is irrelevant, mask count and claw counter are independent from another and manual removal of either of the items resets the counter of that item.
Take that Bradygames!
Interesting stuff.
Good stuff star, thanks.
Is vega hitbox different without the claw i wonder especially Izuna Drop
Some things that I know: all of Vegas Punch normals are different: sLP/MP/HP crLP/MP/HP jLP/MP/HP in reach and have 10 less damage. Close normals have no different reach (naturally) but also suffer from 10 less damage per hit.
Some things that I am quite sure of: His grab box is not affected by the loss of the claw (ground or air), nor is his throw damage. I guess this is also true for the Izuna/Super grabbox. The Izuna one is small enough already
What I do not know until somebody finds a way do enable hitboxes in-game: If the claw strike of FBA is affected by the claw loss. There is a different sound effect and the usual 10 points less damage though. But if you have to use the claw strike outside the double hit (which has to be so close that the claw reach doesn’t matter) you have other problems anyway.
Would be nice if any one can record vega hitbox without claw I feel izuna drop hitbox might be bigger without claw, I do know about the damage loss, but the reach feels almost the same still testing.
Focus attack is what kills vega in ssf4 editions or else izuna drop would be godlike.
See that’s the problem, nobody can do that. The only hitbox information we have (aside from the rudimental ones from arcadia magazine scans on eventhubs) come from a leaked video that goes back to the release of super.
Check out Triasnt’s youtube channel, I think he has uploaded all of them. An even there the Scarlett Terror information is missing as well as the proportions of No-Claw moves. There is a prog. for the PC version called ono! edit which allows you to change the proportions of a move (charge time, frame date etc.) but even with this one nobody has figured out how to show the hitboxes ingame.
Aside from that, I disagree with the importance of focus attacks. The are better options for almost every character to counter FBAs than focus. So most of the time you weren’t given the chance to land an Izuna from a raw FBA anyway.
Actually, we can look for that kind of information in the .bac file.
But like you said, its useless.
It seems I am a bit overated here : originally, it was from wwmajin’s channel.
Focus attack can be troublesome if the focus itself moves the target grab-box away from where the claw does trigger his FBA/Izuna. That is 'cause izuna range is so poor that any offset would turn it into a regular FBA. Meaning absorbed byt the focusing, meaning big punish.
But there are players who do take that in account, and then focusing just turns the opponent into a sitting duck. Characters with anti-airs hitting just above their heads can avoid that much more comfortably. =)
hmm, does anyone know who uploaded those hitbox data videos back in the ssf4 days?
yeah, lucky i got them back in the days. but i always wondered how they did it. a capcom employee perhaps?
So I’ve heard. A lot of those seem to have disappeared since super, so it looks like a leak, and it looks like Capcom didn’t appreciate.
The only other exception seem to be Arcadia Magazine’s ones, which are the only ones showing AE stuff and Scarlet terror. =)
Yeah, he dug deeper into that:
Did some more experimenting and I think I’ve figured out how it works.
Damage to remove Mask: 500
Damage to remove Claw: 750Whenever you attack Vega it subtracts from the mask and claw values (obviously).
Here is where the confusion starts though is how the damage works.
When you hit Vega the damage to the remove mask / remove claw is always equal to the damage you actually dealt. However there is a minimum of 10 damage per hit. Any attack that does 10 damage OR LESS is counted as 10 damage. So all attacks that do ZERO damage (such as blocked normal attacks) do 10 damage. It doesn’t matter how much damage that normal would do on hit, or whether it’s a light medium or heavy attack. It always does 10 damage. I tried setting an light attack to do 500 damage on hit and zero on block. It took 50 hits to remove the claw. I tried it with a heavy normal that did 1 damage on hit and zero on block and it also took 50 hits to remove the claw.
The damage done to mask/claw are subject to damage scaling from combos as well as the damage boost Vega gets when missing his mask.
Example:
An attack that does 120 damage would take 5 individual hits to remove the claw
4*120 = 480, on the 5th hit the claw would be removed as you pass the 500 damage requirement.However if you were to do that same attack and have it COMBO all 5 hits it WOULD NOT remove the claw
120(100%) - 120(100%) - 96(80%) - 84 (70%) - 72 (60%) = 492 damage. You need 8 more damage to remove the claw.
Chip damage is no different, it takes 500 chip damage to remove the claw. HOWEVER any hits you do BELOW 10 damage count AS 10 damage. So for example, E. Honda’s HP Hundred Hand Slap does 4 chip damage per hit on block but each one of those hits counts as 10 damage towards removing the mask. So if you blocked say, 10 hits of HP HHS you’ll have lost 40 health but the mask/claw will have lost 100 health!
Now this is how my testing has shown the case to be consistently but I’d love for someone to double check me and/or prove me wrong.
Here is a couple of tests that back up my statement.
- 50 blocked normals (ANY normals) removes claw
- Do Cody’s HP Criminal Upper, it will be removed on the 8th criminal upper on block (first hit = 15 damage on block, then 5 hits of 5 damage each are instead counted as 5hits of 10 damage. Thus HP Criminal Upper = 65 damage on block to the mask/claw. 500 divided by 65 = 7.692 meaning you need at least 8 HP CUs)
- Now do it with EX Criminal Upper which is 15chip on first hit and 5x6 chip for the tornado. The mask/claw will count this as 75 damage. 500 divided by 75 = 6.66. The claw will be removed on the 7th EX CU
- Now try it on hit with EX CU. Math matches up. EX CU = 180 damage. 500 divided by 180 = 2.77 it will take 3 EX CUs and 4 HP CUs to remove the claw (HP CU = 160. 500 divided by 160 = 3.125)
You were close though, probably counted wrong on a few things and it screwed up your whole data layout leading to the confusion you had. Biggest oversight was simply the minimum damage values for chip damage also applying to onhit. That is what ultimately confused me the most because I was getting different values that made no sense because of that.
That and miscounting the number of times an attack was blocked lead to your problem with thinking certain normals took more hits than others. Screwed me up too but I retest stuff several times until I get a consistent result.
I’m 100% open to the idea I’m wrong on this but the math seems to be consistently lining up.
… Now if only Cody’s knife had this but with 50 damage instead of 500 >.>
Your theory explains the properties perfect, since it answers all questions regarding the differences from hit and block.
Thanks for testing!