Marvel vs. Capcom 1 - 3am Bored Rankings

Classic Fighting Games Other Games
1

No fucking reason for this. I’m just bored.

Top Tier

  1. Strider Hiryu
  2. Red Venom
  3. Wolverine
  4. War Machine
  5. Gold War Machine

Upper Tier
Lilith, Chun-Li, Venom, Megaman

Second Tier
Gambit, Ryu, Captain Commando, Hulk, Zangief

Mid-Tier
Spider-Man, Shadow Lady, Morrigan, Captain America

Bottom Tier
Roll, Orange Hulk, Jin

Probably the biggest surprise to me is how high Lilith came out, and Roll being back to bottom tier. I’ll explain that in a second, but first the top tier breakdown.

Strider is the best character in the game. He does not need another teammate to win. Anytime he lands a low forward, the opponent loses 40%. Any other hit leads to a lot of damage. He has the potential to shut down the fight any time he gets a meter. And WITH a teammate, well… we know about his duo abilities. No bad fights except for RV who can actually exploit his miniscule frame disadvantage on his best move (low forward).

Red Venom is not as execution demanding as you think. Infinite is a side benefit rather than a required thing, as RV has two really good, really fast, really powerful moves that shut down almost everyone - low fierce and jump roundhouse. Combine that with his throw and he’s already powerful. Now if you can infinite, then your RV became boffo. The only way to really beat RV is to outwait him so you can go for chip in the duo, and unless you have Psylocke that’s not happening.

Not much to say about Wolverine that people don’t already know. This is probably his most interesting incarnation short of MvC2 and maybe XSF. Any hit leads to an advantage in either damage or positioning and the fights that look bad for Wolvie on paper get a lot better when you start learning how to throw. It’s knowing the “bad” matchups and exploiting it that marks a good Wolverine from an only average one.

WM is a more solid character than GWM. That much is obvious. He suffers because head-to-head he loses to the three characters above him, and without duo threat he loses a lot more. But duos ARE in the game, so WM can level up easily and the opponent basically has to do something about it. Couple that with easy mode pseudo-infinite and you have a real threat of a character.

GWM is not good alone. Block all day and throw when you can. However, because of his super armor and leveling up, you have to pick the times you can hit him and decide if trading hits is worth it, because when he gets three levels, unless your name is Captain Commando you are going to lose 50% for free. It’s basically for this reason alone that he’s top tier.

Okay, on to upper tier. My experience with Lilith shows me that she’s sick good, and Lilith/Strider is almost as big of a bitch of a team to fight as DWM. What you lack in super armor, you make up for in near untouchability. Lilith can play a ground game, and if they try to attack you with anything from the air, jab uppercut. Build 3 meters and duo. She can’t really fight RV and she can’t level up as fast as GWM, but she can fight all the other characters.

Chun-Li is obvious. Facts are facts, though, she dies to duos and when you put her head to head against Wolverine you’ll lose in the long run. She has enough fun stuff to make her worth playing, though. Venom basically beats all rushdown for free and actually can take RV on WITHOUT Psylocke, which makes him worth his weight in gold just about. We all know why Megaman is good, but once they stop running into fireballs, he sucks and doesn’t do much of anything for you unless your opponent’s team has a shitty duo.

Second tier - Gambit is nice and has some fun fights, but is overall not very scary and does not fare very well in duos (You’d think Cajun Explosion would be good, but it sucks on DWM because you are going to get hit by some missiles which means you die). Ryu is okay. Regular Ryu has some shitty rush/fly stopping with tk fireball, and R-Ken has okay rushdown because of glitchy dash. Commando can beat autopilot DWM very well because he can trade hits with GWM in his favor almost every time and annihilate the duo with a well timed Captain Sword; he loses to WM. However, he’s a decent character all around. Hulk is my character in MvC1 and I can tell you that without a lead to hang on to he’s crap. Dies to duos, but fares well on rushdown and enjoys a comfortable fight with Wolverine (he only sweats on real experts). Zangief is pretty much a better Hulk, but what Gief has in options Hulk makes up for by being easy mode and having better pokes.

(to be continued)

2

Mid-Tier…

Spider-Man is easily the best character in the mid tier, because he has great normals and a 50/50 mixup. The fact that he dies to every single top tier team for free makes his stock a lot lower, though. Shadow Lady is an interesting character and I know a few things about her, but she doesn’t do much of any sustained chip and is extremely assist dependant. Still, a Shadow Lady/Lou trap can sustain you for awhile if you don’t feel like playing. Morrigan is a lot better than I originally thought her to be (playing Lilith showed me that), but she’s still not great since her rushdown is like for 15% damage without much of an advantage after, and unlike Lilith Morrigan has no duo to speak of. However, a very important advantage of Morrigan (either) - they are the only characters in the game who can sweep (sj. cancel, airdash down jab after a connected sweep - everyone else will die when the other character jab rolls and punishes). CapAm is average in just about every way. Personally, I find him an extremely boring design and I don’t know why anyone would play him really, but different strokes.

Bottom Tier, I’ve fought in Roll’s defense many times, but I finally have to face facts - she’s bottom tier. She’s basically a shitty Megaman. It’s fun to throw the hell out of people and in the corner she can do some damage, but short of space control with flower bouquet (which does only slightly more damage on a hit than on a block), Roll offers nothing that Megaman does not. As the only Orange Hulk player ever, I can tell you - he sucks. He has some good pokes and a decent pressure game, but he’s huge, takes damage badly, has no priority and can’t outwait anybody. As Hans put it so many years ago, he’s everyone’s favorite lunch. Jin is absolute worst character only because he has nothing to attack with safely and everyone can hold BACK on most Jins and be safe. Not down-back… back. Sad.

Top Tier Teams
War Machine/Gold War Machine (DWM. Can be played in any order - it’s up to you, although starting GWM means you work less hard vs. Wolverine, and starting WM means you don’t worry that much about people who think the answer is Commando.)
Strider/War Machine (any order as well. I’d start WM because if he gets owned Strider could still win. Some like to do their job with Strider then do nothing with WM for the rest of the match. Whatever.)
Wolverine/Strider (Striderine. This team works where other Wolverine-based teams have trouble because Wolverine can play the waiting game just as well as others with Strider backing him up. Wolvy/Strider duo isn’t quite as dominating in terms of chip as DWM, but if Wolverine throws you in the duo, you just died.)
Red Venom/Strider (Probably the team you want to use if your RV is only so-so. I think this team is better than RV/Wolvy for that purpose because if you’re in the position where you worry about losing RV, Strider is a far better choice than Wolvy to make a comeback with.)
Red Venom/Hulk (Art kinda convinced me that this team is the best Red Venom team even if his partner isn’t a top tier character. If your RV is good at infiniting, then you’re good for at least one character, and if RV gets into trouble at all, he can tag in Hulk and Hulk can hold downback in corner for rest of match.)
Lilith/Strider (I am now convinced this team is top tier. Nothing top tier short of Red Venom can begin to attack Lilith, and if they get close she can go Magneto mode. When you get 3 meters, they will lose 45-50% and there is nothing they can do. You can’t defeat RV with this team, but it can take on any other team and win. Even DWM!)

Teams to Think About
Venom/Red Venom (Team “Your good rushdown will die to s.fierce -> s.short and then my shitty RV can just low fierce for rest of match”)
Hulk/Strider (Chill like a polar bear. If you hurt me, it’s okay because I still have Strider. My business team of choice.)
Commando/Wolverine (Probably your best shot at DWMs since Commando beats GWM and Wolverine beats WM, but if the matches go the other way you’ll lose. You have to play shell game and no one wants to be there.)
Chun-Li/Shadow Lady (Team Mash. If you have good mashing skills, anytime you land a hit that ends in flying screen or a knockdown and you have 2 meters or more, they should lose a character.)

3

Some people say this game would be better without GWM or RV. Let’s look at how the ranking would slide there. Anyone who knows anything about ranking know it’s more than just dropping the characters from the chart.

Top Tier: Strider, Wolverine, Chun-Li, Lilith
Upper Tier: Venom, War Machine, Spider-Man, Megaman
Second Tier: Hulk, Zangief, Gambit, Ryu, Captain Commando
Mid Tier: Shadow Lady, Captain America, Morrigan, Orange Hulk
Bottom Tier: Roll, Jin

Looks a little different for a few reasons:

  • since Red Venom is not in the game, Lilith is top tier. Lilith/Strider would have solid fights on Strider/WM and Striderine. She can beat certain teams without even needing a partner which means she’s not chained to Strider forever for fear of DWMs and RV. Probably her toughest fight would be Venom.
  • War Machine is not top tier because now that GWM is not in the game he’s chained to Strider.
  • A lot of characters improve because they don’t have to worry about DWM or RV anymore. Most notably, Chun-Li (who can fight Strider/WM duo somewhat well), Spidey (who improves a LOT without having to worry about DWM or RV, who basically own him without much thought) and Venom (he counters Lilith and is still good on rushdown)
  • Commando’s stock goes down a lot since the main reason to pick him in tournaments would be gone.
  • Orange Hulk moves up a notch. Like Spidey/Venom/Chunners, OJ gets better when not having to worry about DWM and RV rearing their ugly heads. He still sucks, but since he’s only playing the waiting game (which he’ll always lose) on two teams, he’s not bottom tier.

The game does seem to look a bit more balanced on paper without GWM and RV; War Machine suffering is certainly not a bad thing. Who knows though; if those characters had been banned, we might have started looking at Lilith as just as cheap too.

4

Umm… this has been argued to death before, but still - there is no way in hell wolvie beats war machine. The only way wolvie can compotently combat war machine is to keep him on the ground. Which is not ganna happen, because he doesnt have any outstanding way to detur wm’s flight etc…

I am not exactly clear on why venom is so high on you list either. But its very disturbing that Gambit is so low. COnsidering his medium punch is godly, and he has an easy infinateXXsuper and nasty throw reset games (Hmm, do I wanna be thrown or inf’ed?). In no way is gambit top tier… but to say he or anyone on this game with an inf isnt at least mid tear is crazy considering how significant it is. And his is cake to pull off too.

Anyways, difference of opinions, but I would really like to hear your explanation on these things.

Edit: Okay, it makes since now. You actually forgot to put Gambit in your second ranking at all. :stuck_out_tongue:

5

The top players agree that Wolverine beats War Machine, main reason being just flat out speed. When WM flies, Wolverine can just get beneath him and superjump with a combo. The only things WM can do (down+fierce or roundhouse) can be called and blocked, in which case the subsequent combo is free. And in the end, War Machine has nothing he can really attack Wolverine with. You can stick a launcher between kneedive and j.fierce/rh because of retarded blockstun properties, and reflying after kneedive is asking to be beaned.

Because Venom stops rushdown braindead easy with s.fierce into a variety of things (s.short, venom rush or jab venom fang).

Okay. First of all, if you get hit with Gambit’s infinite, you deserve to lose. The setups are so obvious that you can avoid them by just not jumping, since there’s no reason to jump in on Gambit anyway. Most characters can safely chip at him from a distance and force him to come to them, in which case Gambit sucks. He’s a decent defensive character, but overall not too scary.

That’s not even mentioning the dumb side advantages (1P Gambit can keep the infinite going forever where 2P can’t).

6

Frankly I lose to Spiderman because if he gets one air combo off on me I die due to him switching sides on the way down from the AC as I’m waking up. As for him getting to me in the first place, super jumping has always messed me up since I can’t see both characters at the same time and that little arrow at the bottom of the screen ain’t cutting it. And I tend to block low after blocking the first jump in hit which of course opens me up for the OTHER jump in hits; I swear playing SF2 games too long has rendered me unable to adjust to anything else, heck I get hit by Gen’s 2x jump RH every time if I block the first hit. Then again, the only MvC1 play I get now is on kaillera which doesn’t count, but the same problems plagued me when I tried to play MvC2.

7

He can start it of of more than just jump ins bro, c’mon. light kick>fierce kickXXkenetic card>dash~inf. Not to mention because of the disgusting block stun on his crouching or standing mediums you can safely abuse dash in~crouching light p/k>crouching medium punch. If they block it, do it again, if they tried to move they get hit and you XX into super. Only people who can stop this is wolvie and jins crouchin jab. If they try to jump, obviously you inf them. You can safely play run away by charge buffering every time you jump, if whatever you jumped in with is blocked then press up into the resetive flips and land safely where ever is more convenient - again, only a few people have normals fast enough to hit you before you jump again, and you cant be thrown. There is more, but those are just a few of the things he can abuse plainly and you cant really do anything about it. If anyone, I would compare his game to venoms. He is a hyper defensive/run away character. He only really has problems with strider (pending greatly on who is playing) and wolvie. He has the best chipping damage on the game and excellent duo possibilities. Granted, I dont especially like the french bastard but he is better than you are trying to make it sound. Seriously, he can abuse too much for free on almost the whole cast man…

i agree with you on the venom thing I guess. I never noticed it because generally when people pick venom I go strider/wm or wolv/rv (if I really wanna rush the shit out of you). I dont have problems dealing with venom. -shruggs- Maybe I am not playing the right people, but most people who were bold enough to pick venom seriously back then never had enough breathing room to do abuse the stuff you are bringing up when I was playing them. Usually a quick match to say the least. While I know venom has some abusabe things against the mid tier seriously, the high middles and top tiers rape him almost for free once you figure him out. And I dont mean to make that sound player spicific, but the basic fact is, venom doesnt have much he can do… noe or two trick pony, against a player with equall skill with a mid tier character and exp playing venoms they are not likely to win. Frankly, jin practicly rapes venom almost for free.

8

is it just me or does this game feels gimmicky?

9

Seriously… have we been playing the same game?

That combo has so many positioning issues, I’d consider it worthless. First off, it won’t work on certain characters if you hit them crouching. Since those characters are ones you’ll run into a LOT (Wolvie/Strider/Chun), you’ll have problems landing it. Not to mention the timing on the dash after the kinetic card is strict.

…

C.Strong does NOT combo into super. Don’t even try to argue this. It does not. And as for abusing the same rush-in over and over, have you heard of something called pushblock? The only person who can do a rush like that is Wolverine, and even he can’t sustain it more than twice before he gets thrown off. (Well, RV can too, but he’s broken.)

IF you can get them not to block you.

Okay, now I know you have not played this game at a high level.

Jump-ins in this game are near worthless on a high level. For the most part, you only jump when you think they are going to jump. Gambit’s j.fierce -> rh chain is worthless because almost every character can block the fierce then launch you before your roundhouse even comes out. Strategies revolving around jump-ins are generally worthless in MvC1 for the most part.

Hello, War Machines, Lilith, Megaman and Strider, who all chip better than him.

Your competition sucking with Venom does not equal Venom sucks.

JIN?! LOL… the ONLY viable trick Jin has is Blodia Vulcan against a sloppy duo. ONLY trick. Jin cannot beat Venom. He cannot do anything to s.fierce xx whatever. He can’t beat jump fierce or jump roundhouse. He loses. SoCal had numerous dedicated Venom players - Joe Zaza and SpiderDan, for instance - so I know a great deal about what Venom can and cannot do. He may only have a few tricks, but those tricks are so hard for rushdown characters to fight, it’s all he needs. The only reason he loses to top tier is because he can’t outwait anyone. If duos were not in the game, Venom woudl be top tier without a doubt.

I don’t blame you for not knowing these things; if you don’t play at a high level or don’t know about how stupid the MvC1 engine is, you won’t realize a lot of things that make this game suck.

10

I have been on east coase all my life. I never played many venoms that were worth the time. I havent had an extended amount of time playing at high level in this game considering when I came into my prime it was dying, but I have had a small piece of it. I dont play Gambit, so when I speak generally about him dont take me seriously. It was more or less another topic to debate, and I wasnt sure, which is why I asked you to explain. I have seen good Jins take venoms apart, but taking this into account, in most cases the match was lopsided skillwise.

Still dont like venom. And I will still always rape him with strider -evil cackle-

CURSE …of the ORB WHORE. -echo echo echo echo…-

11

Hmm… how exactly does WM own commando? To me it seems like it could go either way only because wm only needs 1 hit to infinite you and with broken air combo resets and whatnot kill you from 1 hit. But to me it seems like commando’s defense covers anything wm wants to do to you so unless you get a lucky colossus/psy hit into launch --> infinite or something commando ain’t dying. jab corridor stuffs kneedives easy, captain fire/jennety for full screen chip/pressure if he wants to stay back and do nothing/build meter. Captain sword on reaction to random war destroyer, you don’t need the meter for duos if it’s dwm anyways since commando owns gwm without it and if gwm isn’t on his team you probably aren’t picking commando anyways. As long as you can block wm rushdown commando has nothing to worry about? Or am I missing something here…

I’ve never seen a good lilith player before, how’s her d so good and what makes her chip game so great? Is brilliant shower really that good? Never seen it used effectively.

12

Prowness, everything you’ve said on this board abotu fighting games in general has been flat out wrong or severly misinformed. Doesn’t matter what coast you’re on dude, it still doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about.

Jake why would WM do random war destroyer. if you play ppl that obviously do that then your comp sucks, straight up.

captain fire/jennety wont stop WM from getting in on you or chipping you at his leisure. He doesn’t win the distance game vs GWM either, he has superior projectile abilities and can build meter whenever he wants. Commando isnt that good, his only -ok- match is vs GWM, and he loses the trades he gets from random corridors in that match. I forget exactly what to do since I don’t play GWM and it’s been so long. =( Most people say Commando beats GWM for free cause he can win off random corridors. I tend to disagree, but I forget exactly what WM can do to make sure Commando can’t win off the trade.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but noone knows what they’re talking about on this thread other than dasrik. While I don’t agree with everything he’s said, at least 95% of the stuff he’s said here is definetely true. Don’t worry GenJake I’m not talking about you - you guys are the ones making questions, not trying to assert things.:lol:

13

Well excuse me, if I dont present my current knowledge on a subject to have it evaluated then I wont improve or gain a deeper understanding of the game. I dont ask questions about things I am generally confident about knowing, but by debating them constructively and intellegently things are brought to the light. What is common knowledge to you, is not always to others. And while you may think of my post as “bull shit” or useless, my points are shared with other people who obviously gain something from it. Because we wouldnt get half the detailed explanations and breakdowns we get if I didnt constantly challenge you guys info with my “flat out wrong” statements. And if I am so full of shit, why dignify it? If I was ever truly that vain then why would I admit in my last post that I was wrong and wasnt clear on something? What the fuck kind of point did you make by saying that besides validating yourself to make you feel a little higher on your wack ass mental pedistal…

Its fucking redundant. Its so easy to point and say he is wrong and lable people. Take your oversized head out of your ass and start explaining shit to people instead of criticizing them for genuinely trying. And far be it for me to ever “assume” I know a little about what the hell I am talking about or you motherfuckers wanna jump through hoops. Why even initialize a debate if the first point presented that conflicts with yours, or is partially incorrect warrents disrespect? No, my friend, you are full of shit - and you need to be kicked off those gay ass stilts you are on. If every body here KNEW what they were talking about already, these forums wouldnt need to exist.

14

Don’t get so heated. There’s a difference between trying to learn, and trying to assert yourself as if you know what you’re talking about. And that’s the impression I tend to get from you for the most part.

Like, in the other MVC1 thread we argued in…basically, you said up, I said down. You said left, I said right and you generally wouldn’t listen. I posted because you were trying to assert something to prove that you were right…if you didn’t, you wouldn’t have dropped the fact that “oh, i’m from eastcoast, therefore i know what i’m talking about!” line! It’s not even a “high horse”

It’s one thing to get a detailed breakdown from someone, but it’s another thing to still get a detailed breakdown, and keep disagreeing with them so they have to break it down further! You’ve been doing that with me from my past experiences with you, and I don’t really have the patience for that. I can only explain the thing in so many different ways.

i don’t explain strats to you as much, because like i said, i know i have much more experience than you in this game, and your opinions imo tend to be so off on a lot of things!

Basically what I’m trying to say is that dasrik is practically right in everything he’s talking about and that you’re wrong. so listen to what he has to say. i’ve played this game enough to know that everything you’re saying is wrong too. sorry for coming off so arrogant.

15

**

Arturo, leave him alone…he doenst realize who you are yet. This is one example of when i meant this…

CLICKTY CLICK

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16

I see your point, Koopsta, but we shouldn’t be so quick to knock Prowess just yet. Those new people can make us old fogeys rethink shit… if anything, Prowess made me think over Jin vs. Venom for real. Of course… Jin still gets owned, but I honestly never really thought it over before, LOL :lol:

On to actual questions…

Jake: Commando vs. WM is one of those matches that only looks good for Commando if you get hypnotized by the obvious answers. “WM can’t smart bomb me… I have Captain Sword!” Yeah, genius. What happens when I just don’t smart bomb? “Well… he can’t fly because of Captain Sword!” Well, I can fly semi-close to the ground - high enough to avoid Captain Fire, but low enough so I can unfly on reaction to your super and block. And of course, if I have Unfly Mode all bets are off, I can fly whenever I want. And well, what if you DO hit me with Captain Sword? That’s one less meter you have in case I end up duoing you and you lose 50% and probably have GWM on you WITHOUT a stamina advantage. That’s way too many maybes, and Commando ends up spending most of the match second guessing himself. Guess what? That’s a losing match :frowning:

As for Lilith, either Lilith or Morrigan have a near untouchable ground game… dash in chain into sweep, and if they jump over any of that, jab uppercut. Up close, they also have good Magneto-style rushdown (jump, airdash down, jab). Plus if people start trying to dump shit at you from the air, they have way too many mobility options with their Vania dashes and shit. However, all this is moot because anyone can just chill and level up and not worry because if they get hit they lose 15% (30% at most vs. Morrigan). LILITH, however, has the option of duoing, which means the opponent stands to lose 45-50% block damage at will (for free if her partner if Strider). This changes the match drastically because now she can play the waiting game. She can even take a hit, as long as she survives, because hitting her actually builds a chunkload of meter (that was my initial strategy with Lilith/Strider which led me to call it “Team Masochist”).

Anyway, this is way too much to write about a dead game. All I can say is, I’ll take anyone on with Lilith/Strider, as long as they don’t pick Red Venom. (I want to say ‘any Venom’ because Venom gives her a hard time too, but… it’s not unwinnable).

17

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omg that new generation has gotten to you!!! arrrrghhhh noooo! see were old school, were suppose to know without thought:lol: now your gonna break me down in frame ratio…lmao j/k

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18

Well if you’re low flying that’s the perfect range for jennety. Just seems to me like commando covers anything wm tries to do. Even in dwm duos, captain sword can neutralize every missle (sometimes 1 or 2 might get through probably offscreen at the time or something but that does hardly any damage) and still hit dwm and probably kill the hurt one. I don’t know if there are any tricks that dwm have to avoid that besides crossing up commando with the duo or hitting with the duo initial kick then he’s dead, but there might be. The only real trouble I’ve ever ran into against wm is when he gets in and starts doing knee dive rush down re-fly that is too fast to jab corridor on reaction to the first dive then crosses me up when it looks like he’s still on the same side sorta and makes a captain fire come out instead of jab corridor and I die to infin.

If he has unfly, then I have no clue, never seen anyone abuse unfly with wm before, although I don’t really see how wm gets in when he wants to keep unfly mode since he can’t normal jump. What Sabin said though, wm can chip commando better, with shoulder cannon? I always figured the move is too laggy/easily dodged to be a real threat, but if he has something that outchips commando and unfly then I guess he wins for free. I just think that wm vs commando isn’t free and commando has a decent chance. I’d really like to know how gwm wins trades with corridors though.

19

Jennety gets hit by Smart Bombs. And since it takes time for Jennety to leave the screen, you can’t bait the SB and Captain Sword (you can’t super when any of your friends are on screen). And yeah, unfly mode is abusable in the same way that Sentinel abuses it, even worse because Commando has no real way of damaging you while you’re up there, so if he hits WM at all, WM probably won’t die and he’ll get unfly mode. Not being able to normal jump makes no difference since there is NO REAL REASON to normal jump in this game anyway (see my post to Prowess).

And in the duos, sure Captain Sword works, but that can be baited. If you Captain Sword immediately on the duo, GWM has a lot of options - he can dash up to you and launch you into WD and you just died. He can low forward to take you out of the Sword before it even comes out. He can qcf+roundhouse which means the missile hits you and then WM’s beam hits you, and ouch that hurts. DWM doesn’t HAVE to mash on qcf+kk upon duo, that’s what makes the duo so scary.

In the end, all of Commando’s stuff gets negated by the DWM player actually THINKING, which is something not everyone wants to do.

And as for Commando’s trades with GWM, if GWM is too far to do a real combo, then the trade is in Commando’s favor. But if GWM is close enough to launch, then probably not.

WAY too much text for a dead game.

20

Captain Sword also does 1 pixel of damage to GWM if he is anywhere BUT on the ground. Just FYI.