Irrelevant…Steve IS Cap…he can’t fail being Cap by default.
Naaaaa, pasty white British Storm. Make her a ginger.
Watcher will fix everything, as always
I hope Thor regains his worthiness by banging every mother fucking vagina in his path. He should try to father more kids than a black Odin.
(This is where I’d make some comment before quoting things, but since this post became fucking long enough as it is…yeah.)
Actually, I’m going to be somewhat merciful and put about at least a few paragraphs of my reply to specs in spoilers. There. Now your eyes are only half-destroyed. Yay.
It’s just because everyone took Cyclops’s “Geometry and You!” class, co-sponsored by Captain America, during said weekend before they went back to shitting on him and the rest of the X-Men & The Mutant Problem.
I mean, it’s not like the hypocrisy that abounded during Civil War and Avengers vs. X-Men came out of nowhere even if the rest of those storylines were stupid as fuck.
Meh. It’s inevitable to be disappointed in people, especially people you think you know since you can’t ever know anyone 100% anyway; it’s the nature of humanity, specs. I don’t really care how you feel about me to be frank even though we’ve generally gotten along before this past year or so. That said, as tempted as I am to snark like angelpalm has and as much as I don’t understand your position, I’ll clarify my position politely once more.
“It’s lazy” for several reasons just off the top of my head.
One, two, skip a few:
[details=Spoiler]“It’s lazy” because, as pointed out earlier, there’s really no reason this should be a seemingly random woman. If they wanted a woman to take over the title of Thor, then there’s a) Thor Girl, b) a bunch of already existent, kick-ass Asgardian women and c) other kick-ass women who may or may not be goddesses of some kind, like Snowbird or Storm. This new Thor is seemingly not any of these people. It doesn’t mean that she can’t be actually worthy, but it sure rankles people who would like to see Thor Girl get her due or who realize that Marvel would have gotten even more press if they went and ahead made Thor female and black or at least non-white looking. As it is, at the very least, Marvel could have made her female and a non-cookie cutter blond so as not to (intentionally) deceive causal people into thinking that she’s Thor as a woman when she isn’t, but they didn’t. So that should help tell you what they intend to do with her ultimately. (Psst. She’s a temporary stand-in.)
“It’s lazy” because it’s essentially a rehash of Earth X Thor, only with a much dumber premise since this new Thor isn’t even actually Thor. It’s just a hitherto unknown woman who has seemingly effectively stolen his name and hammer, which won’t be confusing at all. Granted, it would have been just as lazy as if they had wholesale transplanted Earth X’s Thor storyline into these circumstances, but at the same time, that would have made more sense given what we’ve been told so far about this version.
“It’s lazy” because there’s a decent chance that they’re actually calling her “Thor” in-comic, which…makes zero fucking sense, even for comic books land. They could literally call her anything else thunder-or-lightning-related and it would be less dumb; even “Thunder Thighs” would be less dumb even though it would obviously be way more sexist. Hel(l), they could have called her “Mjolnir” and it would be at least been slightly more sensible and way less confusing. (If they aren’t calling her “Thor” in comic, then this point is largely moot.)[/details]
“It’s lazy” because there’s nothing actually empowering about a woman getting empowered solely because of a man’s fuck-up and self-imposed guilt. I imagine this Thor’s self-esteem will just shoot through the fucking stratosphere when she inevitably finds out that she’s only Thor not because she really earned it, but because Thor just “lost” it. This especially since it’s not even like Thor is dead (again) either. At the very least, she’s probably going to be confused as fuck when she wakes up one day to realize she randomly has Thunderer powers and has Mjolnir.
“It’s lazy” because, really, what does making Thor a woman actually change or do? Granted, this part is the sole part where there is potentially some benefit to making this version of Thor not just Rule 63 original Thor, but…yeah. It’s not like either Thor would be unwelcome at Avon’s Breast Cancer walk just because one of them is male or anything. Does making Thor, whether it’s the original or another version, a woman really do anything for “women’s issues” vis-a-vis comics other than just thinly pander to armchair (faux-)feminists who largely don’t read comic books anyway? Especially when you know that as far as “women’s issues” go, they’ll only probably only really touch on how being the Thunderer (negatively) affects her dating life since dating and marriage and shopping are the only things women care about, obviously.
**Sample dialogue from the only effects of upcoming change: "Woe is I! Becoming the Thunderer hath doomed my dating life! Into infinity and beyond shall I now be forever alone! Only Mjolnir shall be my faithful companion as it doth power my sole remaining lover, Vibratron X!
“…Why the f$#k am I talking like this?”**
The original Thor still being alive as a separate and distinct male entity, however, is the chiefest reason that “it’s lazy” since, unless you are woefully naive, it’s pretty clear that this change isn’t going to last. It’s just a cheap, relatively transparent attempt to boost sales in between movie releases, which comics have more and more been affected by since the movies are infinitely more popular than comics themselves nowadays. Otherwise we wouldn’t have things like black Nick Fury or Phil Coulson in the main 616 continuity now. So despite the claims that this is going to be the new Thor “until kingdom come”, she already has a likely expiration date of two years, max.
Now, you could very easily try to argue that “but it will be self-fulfilling prophecy if this fails” and…you would perhaps be correct to an extent. You can’t exactly blame people from being cynical when these “status quo shake-ups” happen all of the time and the more positive ones tend to get undone anyway not (solely) because of the fans, but because the writers and editors currently in-charge having grown up with the old stuff that gets put back in. I mean, you were around for Joe Quesada’s bullshit reasoning about how Spider-Man “shouldn’t” be married, especially to someone as attractive as Mary Jane Watson, given that it wasn’t “something comic book readers could relate to”.
Even if you are seemingly “trolling” about at least some aspects of this, do you honestly, wholeheartedly believe that she’ll get to stick around much longer post-Avengers 2 even if she actually ends up being a good character? No, she’s going to, “at best”, get depowered and be forgotten. Hell, she’ll probably get killed making a “heroic sacrifice” to save the original Thor or some bullshit where everyone gets a chance to mourn her thereafter and shill how important she was and how much they miss, even if she was a total bitch like The Sentry.
It’s not that anyone wants this to be bad or even that anyone is against Thor–the original one–being made into a woman; hell, it worked for Loki (under completely different circumstances). It’s just that we’re not stupid enough to be deceived into thinking that a character who is literally a derivative faux-legacy character of a character that’s still alive yet being “replaced” is going to actually last.
Legacy characters that take over for actually dead or retiring characters can be great, like Carol Danvers taking over for Captain Marvel and the new, original Arabic character who proved herself worthy taking over as the new Ms. Marvel. This character…isn’t really a great example of anything (as of yet) but blatant pandering. It’s not even as “ground-breaking” as you’re for some reason making it out to be since Thor has a lost powers temporarily several times before and that’s why no one is expecting this instance will be different ultimately. Just like how no one is going to be shocked when Wolverine gets revived or Captain America gets re-powered.
You’re a writer (supposedly). You’re telling me you honestly don’t anticipate her just getting replaced by original Thor once again at some point for reasons that are largely divorced from any actual misogyny?
Ultimate Universe at one point was more interesting than 616. Then Loeb got his hands on it and fucked up everything with Ultimatum. Ultimate universe still hasn’t recovered from that shit.
(Loeb destroys everything he touches. Hasn’t everyone learned that by this point?)
Much like Wither from X-Men, it is both his “gift” and his curse…and by “gift” I just mean “curse” again.
It really does take some type of dark talent to fuck up things as much he does, especially things that were previously quite good like The Ultimates.
Jeff Smith. I bought the whole anthology years ago and still haven’t gotten around to reading it, but I remember it being relatively cheap for being 1000+ pages. Then again, I bought it from the bookstore I was working out, so I got a discount…
Still, I don’t think it’s terribly expensive for all that you’re getting, especially compared to the relatively short length of most other complete graphic novels.
Ultimate would have been GREAT if it truly gave us an aging universe, where death was forever, and characters aged, and time travel events became relevant when they actually occured years later in continuity/real life, yet characters could still come back from death, only VERY rarely if done well, but used sparingly. Give us an aging comic universe. Fuck having Franklin Richards be a kid forever except when he randomly shows up as Future Frank and cuddles with Galactus. Let’s watch him grow up and learn his powers, while EVERYBODY ELSE DOES. And we can bitch and argue over why Black Widow had a kid with Steve Rogers and Hawkeye got stuck with a jobber, and crazy nonsense like that. I should work for Marvel, I’d make them gooder.
Isn’t Cyclop’s geometry a mutant power, or somehow affected by his eyes being a fucking God portal to a universe of kinetic energy going EVERYWHERE?
do explain.
I’m actually curious…@RockBogart. Don’t dodge this question:
If a white Marvel character had to take over as Black Panther for some fucking random whatever reason, who would you vote for?
Since every time SRK argues over black characters taking over white roles or chicks taking over dudes, I figure this is as good a place as any to ask.
Also who would really win in a fight, White Fury vs Black Fury?
just more atrtention seeking bullshit from marvel and dc. this is why the only people who care about this shit are fat virgin nerd losers.
the water color art looks sick tho and the costume design is ace. ill flip thru it at my LCS but im not big on coipel clones
Has nothing to do with race but old school Nick Fury would hand the new one his ass without breaking a sweat.
It’s a bad match-up for black fury.
(Cyclops being so good at angled shots has been indeed been hinted to be at least in part to due to the nature of his abilities, but I think also trained to get good or at least a lot better at it. It’s never been confirmed one way or the other though as far as I’m aware.)
As far as “mutants vs. non-mutants” hypocrisy, assuming you’re asking me to explain about that and not why Civil War and Avengers vs. X-Men were so stupid, that’s easy to explain concisely: the public in Marvel is totally fine with any and every super-powered individual so long as they aren’t a mutant. This is regardless of how destructive or not said mutant’s power is not compared to several highly destructive non-mutants, such as Thor or Hercules or Wonder Man, who are all accepted despite two of them being literal physical (“pagan”) gods and one of them being a fucking energy being. As kind as he actually is, you think that the public would be a lot more distrustful of one as powerful as Thor rather than hating on someone like, say, Cyclops whose sole power is being able to punch you by looking at you.
I mean, public distrust coming from something as shallow as looks would make more sense, but given how much of issue it was for Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to be accepted when it became known they were mutants despite looking like “normal” humans…yeah. Similarly, The Thing is accepted even though he no longer looks human at all while Rockslide gets hated on because he’s mutant even though he’s basically just a gray Thing Jr., detachable and regenerative rock powers aside. Hell, even before Jonah J. Jameson’s slandering of Spider-Man, a lot of the reason people distrust Spider-Man is because they think he’s a mutant, which is just fucked up.
Basically, Marvel’s public is weirdly fine with empowered humans who are survivors of “happy accidents” that fuck up their genetics, i.e. Fantastic Four, but not fine with empowered humans whose “happy accident” happened in the womb and awaken at puberty (or earlier) due to genetics, i.e. every mutant. It’s been a pretty…egregious double standard that’s bugged me for a while.
The hypocrisy was only furthered by the fact that, during Civil War, one of the key three supporters of the Superhero Registration Act was Reed Richards…who had previously been one of the key opponents against the Mutant Registration Act given how invasive he felt it was; well that and because it affected both his children since they’re effectively mutants. One could try to argue that Superhero Registration Act was different because it, in theory, was only supposed to apply to people who were actively super-heroing, but then the Pro-Reg basically descended into fascism in all but name pretty quickly with cape-killer bullshit and the like, so…
As for Avengers vs. X-Men, the hypocrisy there with regards to this is just that The Avengers tend not to do shit to help mutant kind even though a) at least five of their members have been mutants, b) at least three of their reserve members are in the X-Men and c) they knew for a while that Scarlet Witch was the one who caused Decimation. Whoops.
This doesn’t have to be “empowering” in the trope-y sense of giving the mantle of a well-known male hero to a woman. It can be “total fucking accident.” That’s, what, half of superhero origin stories anyway. Half of fiction, even: ordinary people doing extraordinary things. And yeah, something great (or terrible) can come of this even if this whole thing happens because of formerly-male Thor. This character – and the fact we don’t even know her name contributes to my frustration at seeing “lazy” thrown around everywhere, since we have so little to assess – may not even embody the traditional heroic qualities people want to see. Or maybe she does. Either type of character can, and has, worked in comic books.
This doesn’t even have to be to make a point. Sure, ask what making Thor a woman actually does; that’s fine. But also realize that there’s a valid counter-question there: what does keeping Thor male actually do? Or Asgardian? Or heroic? Or anything? There’s this belief amongst folks who consume fiction that all characters are somehow blueprinted to death with every little nuance dripping with purpose, and I’m not sure where it comes from (though if I were to guess, I’d say an abundance of trying to tie fiction-crafting into academia). This idea could have been a bunch of writers together, with one of them dropping the idea of “what if Thor was a woman,” then brainstorming and liking the end result.
Who fucking cares that it’s THOR and not some other character. No really, just like you can say “what about Thor Girl/Torunn/Valkyrie/etc.” I can say “what about seriously changing up Thor.” And you might counter by saying “well why not just ask any ol’ arbitrary question about any character,” and despite being ironic, the literal phrase has merit: why not. Fuck tradition. Fuck never changing anything. Fuck condemning a specific change for what it isn’t. Spider-Man has had biological and technological web shooters. X-Men characters exhibited secondary mutations. Chun-Li’s entire movelist has changed 17 different times. And a bunch of that was probably just shots in the dark that ended up working, or not.
And who fucking cares if it’s temporary. Some of comics’ best stories – hell, MOST of them – come from things that were temporary, or out-of-canon, or whatever. The Dark X-Men mini-series that re-introduced Nate Grey and actually made it all work. Red Son. Matt Fraction’s Iron Man run after Civil War. The Thor run from that same timeframe. Why can’t it be temporary? Why can’t anything be temporary in comics? Permanence is overrated, especially since these very, very long ongoing series don’t have the benefit of, say, TV seasons and even different series in the same universe like DCAU to keep the stories segregated somewhat instead of bleeding into each other with no clear delineation.
And yeah, I’m a writer (supposedly). As a writer, 90+% of what I do never sees the light of day, neither at work where I write technical and marketing copy nor my entries into screenwriting and story contests. 90+%; no joke. And that has to happen for the 10% that does make it to even exist. I don’t write anything and expect it to last or not go through insane revisioning at the very least. And should I break into screenwriting professionally, I’m fully prepared for someone to look at a script and say “Carlos, this is awesome… but can you make everyone a monkey and give the villain a robot panther that talks with a Jewish accent?” And I’ll say “you fucking bet” and do my damnedest to make it work. Even if that executive gets canned and another wants to scrap the whole thing for something else.
(I’m…now understanding your point even less to be honest, sound argument about “permanence” not being important aside. I can’t comment on any of those examples, though if I’m not mistaken, Red Son was it’s entirely separate, finite universe and Fraction’s run was more of a saving throw for Iron Man becoming a fascist “futurist” during Civil War, so…)
Not that I had meant to imply that being “permanent” is important. I was more just saying that particular bit because I expect the character to be discarded and forgotten even if she is a good character, which is what bugs me the most really.
No one here really cares or is against the title of Thor’s powers being given to a woman; it’s just that you’re basically the only person here who seems to not see that this is a rather transparent attention grab for the most part. That doesn’t mean some of the writers can’t be sincere about it or can’t make it work, but you’re coming across as really naive if you think the executives at Marvel aren’t trying to bank on the fact that (a) Thor suddenly having breasts should generate hype.
(For the record, I’d be saying this of any new “replacement” Thor character that popped up when Thor himself wasn’t dead.)
Similarly, no one said that Thor had to stay male (or heroic or Asgardian or…anything save for vaguely Nordic-themed and answerable to Odin). It’s just that, the thing is, it is not Thor himself who is actually changing. There’s nothing "seriously changing up " with Thor. All he’s doing is going on another temporary Mjolnir-less bender out of guilt, which he has done before. My, how innovative.
Meanwhile, we have a bunch of worthy women who could use more attention and who will stick around seemingly getting passed over for someone who is likely going to be made to disappear after Thor gets re-powered. This, as I said, is what personally bugs me the most about this. Is it a bit unfair to new “fem-Thor” to pre-judge based on what little we know? Unfortunately, yes. Is it likely that this is going to befall her even if she is a good character? Unfortunately, also yes.
At least we agree that this isn’t actually empowering, but at the same time you can’t pretend that that isn’t an angle Marvel is trying to exploit. Hel(l), it’s pretty telling that news of this broke on The View given The View totally doesn’t care about comic books otherwise.
I’d be completely fine with this character if it seemed like there was a good chance that she’s get to stick around do something after Thor gets his powers back, but right now, it doesn’t seem like she will even with as little as we know just because of the blatant lies Marvel is already giving us. The new Thor until “kingdom come” my ass.
On top of that fact that it’s nothing that’s actually innovative, I can’t get excited about this. Again, I would rather this be a good change than a bad one; I just don’t expect it to be. Not that it really matters to me since I gave up on American (superhero) comicbooks like a decade ago for the most part because of shit like this.
I could understand if you were getting annoyed by solely because you feel like the “it’s lazy” thing is jumping the gun a bit, which it somewhat is, but you also seem to be getting annoyed by the fact no one else really cares they’re suddenly making “Thor…with breasts!” when we already have that in at least Thor Girl. If we’d been told something else about her–like her actual fucking name, because if they’re really calling her Thor…–by now, then it might come across as innovative or at least less of attention grab. Right now, it’s just coming across as Marvel sincerely believing that just giving (a version of) Thor a vagina or taking away his penis actually changes something…when it doesn’t really change anything.
No one’s against change here. We’re just not mandated to be awed by change for change’s sake.
I tried to get into comics as a kid, but couldn’t do it. Too many issues, too many event/non-events within many issues, and too many story details crashing/conflicting with one another to take me out of the experience.
Do I like superheroes? Yes, but only because of watching cartoons and movies where the storytelling has to be much more easily digestible in a terms of having separate continuities (90’s X-Men/X-Men: Evolution or Batman:TAS/The Brave and the Bold). I still enjoy the characters and whatever particular element that makes them unique, but there’s a different story to tell about them in their own animated or cinematic universe. I can easily say I’m done with one version of particular story or character and move on, or find I can something I enjoy in the new version of said in said story or character and re-experience it in a different/new light. I only know about the half of the comic-book details because of Wikipedia or other wikis.
I feel the same way about Manga for a similar reason, none of the stories or characters from one manga is connected to another, and each world is unique with it’s own kind of logic and terminology. It makes more curious about each of it’s characters and how everything in that story works, it makes that sense of wonder and discovery all the more exciting for me. If I don’t like one manga series I can still enjoy the other without feeling like I can’t read any of it because of it’s all connected, sometimes too much connectedness can put people off from comics instead pulling them in.
I don’t mind changes in comic books, but I’d like those changes to stick. That’s more than likely what comics need in order to gain a wider audience, but those changes have to stick in order for it to work. Not just change for the sake of change, but actually making it count story-wise and making it feel like a natural progression that’s supposed to happen. Sam Wilson being the next Cap doesn’t sound bad because they have a meaningful friendship and have fought together. Now Thor with tits? That’s bullshit and they have one hell of a job trying to justify why that’s happening other than “We need more female readers! Now!”
I can clearly and vividly picture this specs guy physically slobbering all over his fat jowls as he is spewing forth this barely comprehensible gibberish. Angrily shaking his head at any idea that doesn’t reinforce his own wack ass views.
All the while looking very much like so…
I don’t really know if that’s a valid counter-argument. It’s at least no more valid then asking why Wonder Woman can’t be a man or asking why the black panther can’t be white. These are inherent features that define these characters and without them they would cease to be who they are. Moreover I think as damned pointed out you seem to be willfully overlooking the transparent motives behind this change. The view broke this news out and within hours several women in the industry were blogging and tweeting about this. It’s quite clear from the delivery of this information and who it affected the most that it was nothing more then a cheap and easy way to get attention.
Now I know that you go on about"why not just fuck tradition and change things up"but is this really a legitimate reason to displace a established character. If were simply swapping genders for no other reason then to try something different we should probably do away with all that lip service about female empowerment and equality. In my view this is either a creative decision motivated by a desire to create buzz or a sincere effort to elevate women. Regardless of the cause I think most people are realizing that it’s a rather lazy and dumb way to accomplish both for the reasons already stated.
For the record I want to stress that I don’t actually have a problem with a woman inheriting Thor’s power but I do think calling her Thor is problematic. I have yet to see anyone logically explain why marvel couldn’t have just made the effort to boast the status of someone like sif or Valkyrie. I personally don’t think the success of female characters should require them to usurp existing male character’s identities and legacies. I’d rather them earn their reputation and fan base, it’s less patronizing and offensive that way.
Because shaming males and taking away all that they have is what feminism is all about. That’s why this dude is crushing so hard on this shit. I can’t really blame the poor bastard though, I blame the drugs and shit the doctors probably put him on that make him act and think the way he does.
More reason to have ‘White’ Panther.
RockB would be proud.
It looks nothing like Coipel’s work.
(I say I won’t snark and then am so sarcastic about The View that I have go back and edit that particular line to make it clear that it wasn’t a typo, but extremely heavy sarcasm. Go me.)
Couldn’t you just get someone with healing powers to become the next Black Panther then, Rock?
Oh em gee. Wolverine confirmed for next Black Panther. It all makes sense now.
Logan is blacker than T’Challa anyway.
She doesn’t sound any different from any other woman in this regard. 
I recall during Christopher Priest run, Black Panther was training Kasper Cole to take over the role.
Either new Thor is someone out of left field or could be Mjnior(SP) incarnated as a women? Maybe his weapon got a bad vibe and thought about to pull a Cortana or you know made up person who is worthy. Either way new Cap and Lady Thunder Thighs got peeps talking and whats what Marvel wants before going to SDCC.
