Makoto Wake-up and Post-Hayate Mix-ups

[Chickenwing189]

@chickenwing189:
Because you cancelling your stHK into super. In training mode, dont put infinity super, and it will be ok!

@candeisis:
got your PM on youtube

I have an answer, but wait that you post it here^^

Here is something i tried a bit the other day. I think it can be exploited, but we have to find the timing:

crLP -> up/forward -> 214LP+HK

if opponents guard (get hit):
crLP -> chain stLP

if opponent back dash:
crLP (whiff) -> HK tsurugi

OH, it works now :D…thanks for the tips

[v-ryu]

Ok if you think they will back dash, you can guess and forward dash karakusa and they wont be able to escape (almost all near corner). For mid screen only the slower back dashes can be punished 100% with a few exceptions.

-To Catch Wake up Back Dash (long recovery or near corner only):
-Most Backdashes grounded from frame 20 onwards: exceptions fei long (22-26), gen (24-27), Hakan (24-27), Ibuki (24-28), Rufus (26-27), Sagat (24-29)
-Thus For Average Backdash (grounded f 20 +): -Lk karakusa punish: dash 2-4f before they wakeup dash, 2f maximum for 22f backdash, for longer backdashes can widen dash window later frame for frame.
-Ex Karakusa Punish: dash 0-2f before they wakeup back dash, 0 is max for 22f backdash, for longer backdashes can widen dash window later frame for frame.
-Mid Screen 24f or slower backdashes can be punishable 100%: thus unpunishable mid screen if double back dash = Adon, Cammy, Chun, Claw, Fuerte, Rose, Gen (slow but too far too air borne), Makoto (if xx?s), Rufus (slow but too air borne), Sagat (slow but too air borne), Dan (too far), Blanka (too far), Juri (slow but too far + uniform), Seth (med but too long)
-Tight punishes/exceptions;
-Boxer (24f but long); ex karakusa only if dash 1-2f after woken up
-Cody (23f but short); lk karakusa dash 1f before wakeup, ex karakusa 0-1f after woken up
-Ibuki (28f but grounded 24-28); lk karakusa dash 0-4f after wakeup
-Viper (27f but long); lk karakusa dash 1-3f after wakeup
-Guy (26f but long); lk karakusa 0-2f after wakeup, ex karakusa 0-4f after wakeup

Could be a few more tight exceptions, didnt test all the slow backdashes except the ones that stood out as probably problematic.

In fact, “random” dashing on opponent wakeup is too dangerous. If he doesnt backdash, you will lose too much health xD

Option select dash+EXkarakusa could be good. But is too slow.
StLP is the move which has the fastest recovery frames.

stLP (1active+5recovery = 6) + dash (17) + EX karakusa (5) = 28 frames.

I think its very difficult to use it…and you can only punish 28frames+ back dash characters:
ibuki
t.hawk
dhalsim
makoto
sagat

st

[candeisis]

Yeah prob not that useful, if you did safe jump OS dash it would be 5 frames before dash, but again impractical.

On another note even more character specific shit: -Frame trap meaty st mp wakeup, buffer hk kara/: try make as meaty as you can, note more push back on meaties crouched opponent, but will reach with buffer hk karakusa method

• More Push back exceptions: Hakan, Gen, Chun, DJ & Makoto, Guile, Zangief, Fuerte, Boxer; pushes back further, kara lk kara to reach.
  -note if they stand block they will walk out of range

[cydvis]

I did some testing and there some stuff on different characters wakeup/backdash.
Nothing new (mostly vryu’s stuff), but maybe it can be better with some help. I didn’t know if I should post it in the matchup section or this one…

meaty 2lp OS 2hp:

• input: 2lp 2lp+hp 2lp
• effect: if jab whiff then 2hp, else chain 2lp (can cancel hayate after)
• works on: Abel, Adon, Akuma, Dee jay,Dictator, El fuerte, Gouken, Guy, Hakan (no oiled), Honda, Ken, Rufus, Ryu, Sagat, Sakura, Zangief

meaty 2lp OS 6hp:

• input: 2lp 6lp+hp …
• effect: if jab whiff then 6HP, else chain st.lp (can be linked with mp)
• works on: Boxer (hard), C.Viper, Cody (but can backdash recovery cancel and it’s hard), Dhalsim, Dudley, Guile, Hakan (oiled only but can cancel backdash with a normal), Ibuki, Makoto (but can backdash recovery cancel), Honda, Juri, Thawk
  Edit: I managed to make it work VS all the >= 23f backdash. But the quicker the backdash is the harder it is to do.

Meaty tsurugi:

• input: throw, dash forward, straight jump tsurugi HK.
• effect: if well timed, if will beat throw attempts, and make whiff or beat some reversals
• works on: Akuma (SRK), C. Viper (avoid tk hp), chun li (EX SBK), Dan (SRK), Fei long (flame kick), Gouken (reversal counter), Guile (flash kick), Ibuki (kazegiri), Ken (SRK), Ryu (SRK), Sagat (TU), Sakura (SRK), Thawk (Rising hawk and reversal EX command throw/U1)

meaty 2lp OS U1:

• input: 2lp 36 236 PPP
• effect: if jab whiff then U1, else chain st.lp (can be linked with mp)
• works on: Cody, Dee jay, E. honda, Gouken, Ken, Rufus, Ryu, Sagat, THawk

I’ve got nothing great vs: Blanka, Cammy (only 2lp OS 6mp), Claw, Dan, Fei long (see vryu’s post below), Gen, Rose and Seth.

Some stuff can work on almost every character (I think) but really risky:
lp karakusa OS 2hk:

• input: lp 632 HK 14 HK (or KK)
• effect: if jab whiff then 2hk, else karakusa
• loose vs some mashing jab/throw, startup inv. reversal, jump after lp, hold back with fast walking char (like guile, chun, claw, etc…)

[candeisis]

Hey good work. Question for the 2lp OS’s is the cr lp meaty or not? If so how meaty was it in those tests?

[cydvis]

It was meaty 2lp for all my tests, sometimes it was as meaty as possible for me (for fuerte, viper or guile).
I don’t have a setup for meaty 2lp.

It also works in some situations like: cr.mk anti-air, dash forward 2lp OS whatever.

[v-ryu]

crLP OS stLP+MK works well against feilong.

ok, here is a new option select post-MP-hayate:

… -> MP hayate -> dash -> 63214+HP+MK

• If opponent guard or backdash, makoto will do MK-karakusa and grab him (karakusa has priority over oroshi. So, 63214+HP+MK does karakusa)
• if opponent straight jump or back jump, makoto will go under him, and do Fukiage (63214 input will be considered as a shoryuken input, because of crossdown).

note: you have to do 63214 during the dash, and push HP+MK at the end of the dash

[Neber]

crLP OS stLP+MK works well against feilong.

ok, here is a new option select post-MP-hayate:

… -> MP hayate -> dash -> 63214+HP+MK

• If opponent guard or backdash, makoto will do MK-karakusa and grab him (karakusa has priority over oroshi. So, 63214+HP+MK does karakusa)
• if opponent straight jump or back jump, makoto will go under him, and do Fukiage (63214 input will be considered as a shoryuken input, because of crossdown).

note: you have to do 63214 during the dash, and push HP+MK at the end of the dash

Sweet, just training roomed it, work if they neutral jump. I guess it’ll be character specific or you’ll need to practice the timing to work against back jump, as i was testing it vs makoto and ryu. Only during a small portion of the dash do you switch sides allowing for OS Fukiage, and the timing doesn’t seem too easy. either i cant get it working consistently on backjump.

[v-ryu]

You sure you tried with MP hayate?

[Neber]

You sure you tried with MP hayate?

Yeah of course i did, charged to lvl2 and normally. And i tried a ton of other hayate and fukiage OSes while i did it.

[candeisis]

Mp hayate and hp fukiage for the os hits both neutral jump and back jump! Just doesn’t work when opponent is in corner since you don cross up with the dash to get the other df for the fukiage so oroshi comes out.

[candeisis]

I

Meaty tsurugi:

• input: throw, dash forward, straight jump tsurugi HK.
• effect: if well timed, if will beat throw attempts, and make whiff or beat some reversals
• works on: Akuma (SRK), C. Viper (avoid tk hp), chun li (EX SBK), Dan (SRK), Fei long (flame kick), Gouken (reversal counter), Guile (flash kick), Ibuki (kazegiri), Ken (SRK), Ryu (SRK), Sagat (TU), Sakura (SRK), Thawk (Rising hawk and reversal EX command throw/U1)

Hey a setup that works for ex oroshi, is f + hk feint, neutral jump hk tsurugi

[Neber]

Mp hayate and hp fukiage for the os hits both neutral jump and back jump! Just doesn’t work when opponent is in corner since you don cross up with the dash to get the other df for the fukiage so oroshi comes out.

Does the os work for you always? Sometimes karakusa is still coming out on back jump?

[candeisis]

Buffer needs to be timed correctly: so as 2 df?s will come out if they jump, buffer relatively fast i guess

[v-ryu]

you have to buff 63214 in the dash.

6 - 63214+HP+MK = wrong

6 - 63214 - HP+MK = correct

post hayate:
kara EX karakusa
or
dash karakusa OS fukiage

cover everything, except reversal shoryu (beat dash and armor break EX karakusa)
jump forward

dashing after hayate is not that risky.

(btw, we have to find a word for dash karakusa OS fukiage…thats too long to write. LOL)

[Tak]

Kara-fuki OS
Fuki-kusa OS

[Twin_Rhapsody]

That’s an amazing OS v-ryu, think something simlar might be possible after a st.MP/cr.MK AA reset?

[v-ryu]

@Twin Rhapsody:
no. Because you have to change side during opponent’s jump.
BUT, you can use it with f+MP. For example, on opponent wakeup, if you do f+MP -> 63214+HP+MK and opponent jumps over your f+MP, you will do fukiage.

for those who cannot success with it, be sure you dont try it with recording. It doesnt record the option select…

just make a dummy jumping, hit it with stHP -> MP hayate -> dash -> OS karakusa

btw, i prefer to use 63214+HK+MP.

[candeisis]

btw, i prefer to use 63214+HK+MP.

For which setup? How come?

[v-ryu]

MP hayate -> dash -> fukikusa

when i do HP+MK, my HP fukiage sometimes miss

oh, and its character specific. Big jumps (like chunli…again her…) will screw this OS…or you have to wait a lot, letting her 123123 frames to react to your karakusa.

oh, and it wont work against some characters at all:
MP hayate = +1F
dash = 17
MK karakusa = 8

that means you will grab him after 24 frames.
Adon, Cody: 23 frames => can jump
Cammy, chunli, claw: 22 frames => can jump
Fuerte: 19 frames => can jump
Rufus: airborn until 25th frames => cannot grab him

To change the list a bit, you can use EX karakusa (63214+LK+HK+MP).