Makoto Wake-up and Post-Hayate Mix-ups

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

Updated 25.07.2010
Karaage, Fukikusa…call it as you want xD Karakusa OPTION SELECT fukiage. See option select section

Moves to use on wakup

Meaty st.MP:
*has lot of active frame. It’s a perfect move for meaty on opponent’s wakeup
*if hits on wakup, cr.HP / ultra1 / st.HP ->… , will combo
*if guarded, you have lot of frames advantage. (about 8-10, depending on your timing on the meaty)

note: Meaty st.HK can be used too => [media=youtube]ZX4sqzg2-Qs[/media]

Karakusa
*will be very damaging if you land it
*be sure to land it before using it. Try to understand how react your opponent on your moves before using it. (that’s why makoto is not always useful on her first matches. You have to read your opponent before…)

Meaty Oroshi (LP, MP)
[media=youtube]3RifmhOST2M[/media]
*is overhead
*same possibilities as meaty st.MP
*not punishable on guard
*some setup will make whiff the LP version (ex: crHP -> dash -> LP oroshi). Can be useful to feint a stand-guarding opponent

Meaty cr.LK
*hits low
*st.LP (3frames), st.MP (2frames) or st.HP (just frame) will combo after it

Guard or Backdash
*don’t always attack, and try to read random reversal shoryuken
*makoto’s backdash goes far enough to make whiff reversal shoryuken (so no FADC)
*delay throw while guarding to techthrow/throw your opponent, and not get hit by a reversal shoryuken.

Crossup (or not) j.MK
*different timing will make you crossup (or not) the opponent on his wakeup.

Forward+HK (hold)
*will go through opponent’s body when he’s knocked down. Particulary useful in the corner.

Followup, depending on the moves
One of the main point of makoto is to stun the opponent. Of course, you can use some feint (ex: karakusa -> st.MP -> karakusa) to add some damage/stun, but it’s sometimes so difficult to land a karakusa that you HAVE to do the max damage/stun when you can, without feinting. Here is what to use:

*Meaty st.MP -> cr.HP:
-Option select to beat opponent’s backdash on st.MP.

*Meaty st.MP -> st.HP -> EX oroshi:
-460 stun

*Meaty st.MP -> ultra1:
-Best damage, but no stun. You have to have good reactions to use it.

*Meaty cr.LK -> st.HP -> EX oroshi
-start from a meaty low attack. Very useful

*Karakusa -> st.HP -> hayate cancel -> st.MP -> EX oroshi:
-500 stun. Do it twice and 80% of the cast will be stun.

*Karakusa -> ultra1:

  • Again, no stun, but best damage.

*Meaty oroshi (LP, MP) -> cr.HP:

  • start from a meaty overhead attack. You can use ultra1 instead of cr.HP too

Mixup on wakeup
(tested on ryu. Some characters have different wakeup frames (adon, sagat, etc etc).
Check above section to see what to do if your move hits.

Backthrow
wakeup frames:
61F Blanka, Dhalsim, Claw, Sagat
62F Adon
65F Hakan
60F The rest

*walk back a bit, then forward j.MK:

  • it’s a meaty crossup.

dash3 -> meaty st.MP~ or Karakusa~

dash2 -> LP oroshi~

*whiff MP fukiage -> meaty st.MP~ or Karakusa~:

  • will fill a little bit the EX gauge.

*forward+HK (hold) -> meaty st.MP~ or Karakusa~:

  • will crossup opponent’s knocked down body
  • makoto will be in corner, so watch out (it’s not her place usually^^)

Crouch HP
wakeup frames:
38F Adon
44F Ibuki
46F Sagat, Cammy
47F Blanka
45F The rest

dash2 -> meaty st.MP~ or Karakusa~

*dash -> meaty MP oroshi~

*forward jump -> meaty cr.LK~

EX oroshi
wakeup frames:
61F Adon
67F Ibuki
69F Sagat, Cammy
70F Blanka
68F The rest

*dash -> straight jump -> (land) meaty st.MP~

*dash -> straight jump any move (whiff) -> (land) meaty cr.LK~

*dash -> straight jump any move (whiff) -> (land) MK karakusa~

*dash -> forward+MP -> meaty MP oroshi~

*jump forward -> (land) meaty MP oroshi~

*kara(f+LK) LP hayate -> meaty MP oroshi~

*HP fukiage (whiff) -> meaty st.MP~
-will fill a little bit the EX gauge.

*backdash -> jump+normal move

  • safe jump against 5frames+ reversal (tiger uppercut, cannon spike, fei’s shoryu).

*walk a bit -> FAlvl3

*st.HK (whiff) -> straight jump MK

  • safe jump against 3F reversal moves
    [media=youtube]deQQyHHCtNQ[/media]

Ultra 1
wakeup frames:
82F Adon
88F Ibuki
90F Sagat, Cammy
91F Blanka
89F The rest

  • walk backward a bit, then jump forward MK
  • meaty crossup j.MK

*jump forward -> (land) dash -> meaty MP oroshi~

EX hayate (opponent quick recovery)
dash2 -> karakusa~

*straight jump any move:

  • safe jump against 4F+ reversal move.

*cancel FA lvl3:

  • in corner, opponent cannot mash lights or jump (he gets hit in the air)

*forward+HK (hold) -> meaty st.MP~ or karakusa

  • crossup the opponent while he’s quick recovering.

Forward+HK (not hold)
wakeup frames:
39F Adon
45F Ibuki
47F Sagat, Cammy
48F Blanka
46F The rest

*dash -> meaty HP oroshi

HP oroshi
wakeup frames:
66F Adon
72F Ibuki
74F Sagat, Cammy
75F Blanka
73F The rest

dash2 -> straight jump any move:

  • safe jump against 6F+ reversal moves.
2

Post-hayate MP or HP strategies
First thing to say it that every Hayate gives the same amount of stun (120 non charged). Only the damage is slightly different (LP=90, MP=100, HP=110).

For the frames advantages, LP version gives you +0, MP gives you +1, and HP +2.

That’s why we’ll use MP or HP version everytime we can, because +0F advantage is a little more “random” (see sakura’s LK tatsu… +0F advantage. She can’t really do anything great after it).

Armor_Break posted a list of karakusa which has to be used after HP hayate:
Here it is

1. kara-EX karakusa (120 stun)
One of the best option, but again, just check what does your opponent on the first round to see how he react after your hayate.
Forward+LK is cancelable at the 6th frame. That means your opponent has 4F to react after a HP hayate (+2F).
The fastest lights (and every other move…) in the game come out after 3F (except some special throw). That means that, if opponent mash 3F lights after your HP hayate, he has to do a just frame to counter it. He must be very lucky…

And, as you surely know, crouch LK+LP (to tech throw) will result in a cr.LK (Kicks have priority on Punches when pushed at the same time). And most of cr.LK in the game are 4F+ (dictator has 3F cr.LK…i dont know others).

Knowing this, you can understand that kara-EX karakusa will beat:

  • 4F+ lights
  • crouching techthrow (except against a just frame techthrow on a character who has a 3F cr.LK (dictator))
  • guard
  • non-reversal (cause armor break) 4F+ special move

but you will lose to:

  • just frame 3F lights
  • backdash
  • standing throw
  • jump
  • invuln. move (shoryuken, etc)

if you land id, you will refill about 70% of an EX.
You will do AT LEAST a 258dmg/484 stun combo after it, just by doing st.HP -> hayate. You can do more if you have EX with st. HP -> feint -> st.MP -> EX oroshi (about 540 stun). Or just ultra1 (444dmg)

2. Fukiage
If you think your opponent will straight jump (or backjump in corner) to avoid the first option, just wait to see his jump, and do HP fukiage -> HP fukiage -> EX tsurugi for 328dmg/426 stun.

This option doesnt have lot of risk, because you wait to see the jump before performing fukiage.

  1. Kara-throw
    A safer (but less damage) version of kara-EX karakusa. If opponent avoid it with a backdash or a jump, you wont be punish as if you missed kara-EX karakusa.
    This comes out very quickly, and forward throw does 200 stun. With practice, you will be able to do kara-Backthrow, which is more useful because you can apply a wakeup mixup after it.

I didnt try kara-throw -> option select cr.HP to see if we can punish backdash.

4. Tsurugi
Will beat a standing techthrow attempt. Tsurugi -> st.HP (or st.MP if you’re far) -> EX oroshi for 256dmg/400stun and a waekup mixup. You can use ultra1 for 474 dmg.
Note that you can use HK version to punish back dash, and every version will lose to Focus attack and jumps.

5. EX Oroshi
Very good against mashing reversal/lights opponent after your hayate. When I’m tired of getting DP’ed (hey! I mean dragon punched! not other thing xDDDD), I use it without thinking

6. Forward Jump HK
Use it if you KNOW that your opponent will backjump. But be careful. If opponent doesnt jump, you can be punish when you land.

7. Forward+MP
Quick move with lot of priority. If guarded, you are at +0F, so fill free to do what you want (EX karakusa, etc). If backdashed, you cannot be punished. If opponent straight jump and avoid it, just do a LP fukiage. If it hits (usually counter hit), you can do …-> st.MP -> … It will combo.
Great move.

8. Dash -> karakusa
Will beat any backdash. This is THE THING to do against players who backdash a lot after your hayate. Risk&Reward are ok for it. You can be hit by a light or a shoryuken…but if opponent back dash, he’s almost stun.

The thing you have to know is that if you connect a MP hayate, that will means that you have AT LEAST done 220 stun, since the least you can do to connect a MP hayate is st.MP -> MP hayate (220stun).

If you look at 1, 2, 4 or 8, and the stun they give (400-500), you can see that opponent will almost be stun if he choose the wrong option.

Makoto is all about reading your opponent. You cannot just sit and wait. If you’re not that kind of player, just choose another character, and dont spit on her ^^

Post-hayate Option select 1
Hayate -> st.MP ->
a) st.MP -> hayate
b) option select dash -> anymove, depending of opponent’s backdash.

  1. opponent does an invulnerable move (shoryu, etc)…makoto loses

  2. opponent mash lights:
    *makoto wins sometimes with st.MP, so just do a)
    *makoto sometimes trades, but recover faster than opponent, so you have time to do cr.LK -> hayate

  3. opponent tries to jump:
    *some characters get hit at the beginning of their jump (airborn hit)
    *some characters (shotos for example) get hit before they leave the ground (i don’t know why…i tried to hold “up”, but get hit on the ground). It’s a ground hit, so you can do a)

  4. opponent tries to backdash:
    *some characters get hit during their backdash, but are in the air, so they float and you cannot combo.
    *some characters (shotos for example) get hit during their backdash, but are considered grounded, so you can do a)
    *some characters completly avoid st.MP, so, do b).

To do b), you have to buff your dash in the st.MP. If it whiffs, makoto will dash. Then, depending on opponent backdash (length/duration/etc), you can throw/cr.LP/karakusa/EX karakusa him. EX karakusa is maybe the safest option, because if opponent mash lights or shoryuken, she will be armored. Note that none of those options are 100% guaranteed.

[media=youtube]VfG0N3Pc2Dk[/media]

Option select

On wakeup, against backdash:
In fact, it depends on opponent’s character. I did some try and crLP is a good starter for option select.

  1. against short and slow back dash (shotos, deejay, etc)
    crLP -> qcf qcf +PPP -> stMP -> …
    if crLP whiffs, opponent eats ultra1. If crLP hits (or is guarded), it does crLP -> st.LP -> st.MP (3hits combo).

Usually, pushing 3 punch buttons will result in High punch. But, since crLP -> st.PPP is a chain, it will do cr.LP -> st. LP.
Be sure to do the ultra fast enough to chain and not link it after the cr.LP.

  1. against long back dash:
    crLP -> f+PPP -> st.MP -> …
    Same as the first one, except that makoto will perform f+HP if cr.LP whiffs

  2. against short and quick back dash (abel, guy, etc)
    crLP -> crLP+HP -> crLP -> hayate
    If crLP whiffs, then crLP+HP will result in sweep.

To replace n°3 and do more damage, you can do:
crLP -> stLP+MK -> st.MP
If crLP whiffs, stMK will beat back dash (and if you’re fast enough, you can cancel it into hayate).

Karakusa OPTION SELECT Fukiage
Works after any Hayate, but depends on opponent’s jump (another character specific thing, yeah yeah :p).
Hayate -> dash -> 63214+HP+MK

  • opponent backdash or guard => karakusa
  • opponent straight/back jump => fukiage

When opponent jumps, makoto goes to the other side for a bit, making you finish the input as if you did fukiage.
[media=youtube]MQEbMzYar2Y[/media]

Versus Rufus:
Option select techthrow+crMK works very well after a dive kick
1LK+LP+MK

If rufus does another dive kick, he gets hit by crMK.
If he throws, makoto tech throws
If he does any normal move, makoto will guard

oh, be sure to delay a beat the option select. Or you can hit by a normal move.
Not too earlier to not be countered and not too late to be able to tech throw

3

Thanks alot for your hard work v-ryu. :rock:

Someone should sticky this.

4

yeah, this is great, i got the game last night so i’ll be trying out much of this stuff tonight. thanks bud, nice to see someone doing the groundwork for others! you gonna be sticking with mak and dropping akuma, do you feel shes not so bad as people say?

5

post-hayate mixup will come this afternoon :slight_smile:

of course i will drop gouki for her. Even if she’s not top tier, she can be good. Like it’s often said, you have to read your opponent before taking some risk.
For example, at first, just check what does your opponent after your hayate. If he ALWAYS backdash, you know what to do (dash -> karakusa). If he ALWAYS straight jump, then fukiage, etc.

That’s why its sometimes difficult to win the first matches when you dont know your opponent (in ranking battle offline for example).

St first, I had lot of trouble against gief. I didnt think cr.MK would beat every of his jump. Same for straight jump HP which beats his lariat on wakeup.

I’m really happy when i can beat good people who stick with their vanilla character and have 1 year+ experience with them.

edit:
updated the OP

6

Nice to see you’re feeling good about her.

7

Meaty crLK -> ultra 1 does 6hits combo \o/

8

Awesome thread here. I’ve been abusing the hell out of meaty st.MP for a while now. Nice to see someone else is putting it to use too. <3 that normal.

Going to work on meaty c.LK next. I assume the timing to meaty that is more strict than st.MP

9

I was wondering, how do you link st.mp -> st.hp?
it doesnt seem to be working for me… (is it meaty hit only?)

10

You can only link s.hp from meaty s.mp (+5 on hit).

11

Meaty st.HK -> ultra1 works too in corner.

Meaty cr.LP too

12

*oroshi HP hit -> oroshi LP -> orishi MP meaty (i can link with 2HP then, if done fast enough. oroshi LP doesn’t hit if fast enough, can’t catch standing opponent)
i tried your meaties, i changed a bit the configuration for me to be easier : (not 0 frame moves so easier for me :slight_smile: )
*after backthrow, fukiage LP -> meaty st.MP (i can mash MP, i don’t have to link there, for it to be a meaty)
*after backthrow, fukiage MP ->meaty karakusa MK

*oroshi EX hit -> hayate HP -> easy delay -> meaty st.MP : this one even if a bit delayed, is quite easy and put the opponent toward the corner a lot

opponent in corner after 2HP
*corner 2HP -> 6LK light easy delay -> meaty st.HK linkable with st.MP (250 stun for st.HK, interesting then followed by combo, you can for instance meaty st.HK -> st.MP -> oroshi EX down once more

i’m looking for a no delay version for the corner one + st.HK, not yet found

13

option select anti wakeup backdash on dudley (works on cody too):
meaty st.MP, 6HP, 2HP (or st.MP xx EX hayate)

  • dudley backdash: st. MP whiff but 6HP will catch him on the ground at the end of his backdash
  • dudley jump/throw/don’t have EX or ultra => meaty st.MP win, combo with 2HP

edit: be carefull just like makoto cody also have the backdash recovery cancel (so BRC focus or BRC ultra will win)

14

Has anyone tested like meaty cr. lk or st. mp option select to Ultra 2, or safe jump os ultra 2? This doesn’t work (not tested much) on backdashes (you’ll get killed more likely :frowning: if you whiff on them). I tested it a little bit versus honda (against his reversals), but needs more testing. The meaty has to be timed on the last possible frame in order not to get hit with honda’s best reversal (ex headbutt). Other versions of the headbutt should get stuffed, ochio should too but be ready to block his buttslams. If any of you have time, please test this against his ex hb and all his versions of buttslam.
If you get a knockdown with cr. hp (only knockdown i tested) and safe jump with you preferred normal with option select with Ultra 2 (pending distance of course), it works in some distances versus some of his reversals. I got it to work against a reversal lp headbutt.
Edit: Safe jump xx backdash kinda works against honda versus his wakeup buttslams. If you backdash, you can just do ex oroshi and punish honda on the way down.This doesn’t work versus his lp headbutt and ex headbutt.

15

jump OS ultra work against some backdash, but not all :frowning:

16

meaty cr. lk OS ultra 2 doesn’t work… maybe if makoto is in the corner

17

Some other setups:

After sweep (cr. mp)

-Safe jump with j. lk, j. lp, or j. mk and do a tick karakusa. If timed properly it works as a frame trap and should be harder to mash jabs/throws out of. Mix in with s. mp or s. lk block strings.

-Safe jump with j. lp, OS lp/mp/ex hayate, tick karakusa. Works the same as above, except it beats back dashers, but puts you at risk against certain reversals. Sets up an f. lk reset when done in the corner.

-whiffed f+mk > meaty karakusa or s. mp seems to work, but is a few frames off. You have to wait a frame or two or the meaty won’t hit.

After HP/EX Oroshi:
-Start charging FA. It should reach level 3 just as they’re getting up. Mix them up by dash canceling it if you think they’re going to try to reversal.

-dash forward/f+lk, pause, neutral safe jump (and any mix-ups/option selects off a safe jump).

Other notes:
-The wiki states that f. lk is cancelable on frames 1 through 6, so you can actually make ex karakusa safe from 3 frame jabs if you time it properly. (unless I’m misreading the wiki)

-Incidentally, blocked level 2 FA seems to be a perfect karakusa set up. After getting level 2 FA blocked, dash cancel forward and immediately do an lk karakusa. If timed properly it should win against jabs and regular throws.

18

A little more in-depth info on this:

Meaty s.MP OS f+FP/s.MP on opponent’s wakeup might be her best option in terms of damage and stun, and is pretty consistent across the board on a lot of characters. So far it works on everyone except the following characters in which you’d have to change it up a bit depending on who it is:

  • Ibuki - Apparently Ibuki’s wake up time is a couple of frames longer than usual, meaning the normal timing for her meaty s.MP you usually use on everyone else will whiff unless you delay it a little bit.

  • Gen - The second s.MP after the meaty s.MP will whiff due to either his hitbox being thinner than usual, or increased pushback.

  • Dan - The f+FP will hit him in the air if he backdashed your meaty s.MP because he’s still considered in an airborn state that late into his backdash, so don’t mash the f+FP out.

  • Chun-Li - Bitch completely escapes the f+FP option select due to her backdash being fast and having little recovery. Gonna have to use a different s.MP meaty OS.

  • Sagat - Same scenario as Dan; his backdash is still considered in an airborn state pretty late into his backdash.

  • Cammy - Completely escapes the f+FP option select as well due to fast backdash with little recovery.

  • Makoto - Can backdash recovery cancel into guessing game. Otherwise, f+FP tags her if she doesn’t cancel the recovery.

  • Cody - Can backdash recovery cancel into guessing game. Otherwise, f+FP tags him if he doesn’t cancel the recovery.

  • Rufus - Airborn state late into backdash.

  • El Fuerte - Completely escapes f+FP option select due to fast backdash with little recovery.

  • Vega - Completely escapes f+FP option select due to fast backdash with little recovery.

  • Adon - Apparently Adon wakes up a couple of frames faster than normal, meaning your have to do your meaty earlier than usual. Also he completely escapes f+FP option select due to fast backdash with little recovery.

  • Rose - Completely escapes f+FP option select due to fast backdash with little recovery.

TLDR version:

  • Delay the meaty s.MP on Ibuki, advance the meaty s.MP on Adon.

  • Characters considered airborn late into their backdash: Dan, Sagat, Rufus. The f+FP will only hit once.

  • Cody and Makoto can backdash cancel recovery for options against the OS.

  • Chun-Li, Cammy, El Fuerte, Vega, Adon, and Rose can backdash out of the f+FP option select for free.

19

After an Ex/Hp Oroshi immediately doing F + HK(feint) into an immediate Mp Oroshi gives a very meaty timing.

Edit:
Nvm, just got this to whiff on Ryu when I did it fast enough. =/

Edit 2:
Even though you can fuck up with it, you can still get a frame perfect timing with this with a little practice. You just have to delay the oroshi a fraction of a second after the dash. I do the QCB motion and then delay the input slightly, as if I’m doing Hazansho -> Super on chun.

20

2HP vs ibuki (timing is different) i found
6[HK] (hold) st.MP meaty
or
dash st.MP HK karakusa
or
dash oroshi HP