Makoto Strategy and Match-ups

[the_mossad_man]

@Mossad and Guro Primo: This is great stuff, I’m definitely putting this on the 1st page. I like the point/counter-point/reinforce discussion. IMO, I think the hardest part about fighting Gief is having to switch your playstyle from “I’m gonna run your ass over” to “annoying Chun-Li poke style”

@Everyone: Alright, time for another poll. What do you guys think of using some of FAX’s matches. Yes, I understand FAX has a reputation for operating under logic only he understands, but occasionally he shows some really good ideas everyone can use. There’s a new post by Hav in the vid thread that contains a match vs Claw. FAX abuses the shit out of Tsurugi, and it works rather well (at least in this game). Most losses I’ve seen in this match-up are due to Makoto trying to outpoke Vega, but that usually doesn’t turn out too well (in my experience at least).

Give 'em a look and send me some feedback.

I mean honestly, we are very methodical… but we are not the best :). Some of us are excellent, but most of us aren’t as good as FAX is. That’s just the truth.

I think its ok for him to play under what some of us deem illogical. As I’ve stressed in other threads… RESULTS are all that really matters. Secondary are the competitor, and the competitor’s character, judged seperately of course…

I say put them up. Regardless of the controversy, he wins. He gets results. Although he might not do it in the prettiest fashion, his methods might work for someone else. Someone might find his play competely logical, and they may become a better player because of it. So yeah. post what you got to. If you think it will help, sure, post it up.

Re:Vega - Vega really doesn’t have an answer to well spaced Tsurugis, Fukiage and st. HK. Count Kara EX Hayate if he’s doing the wall jump bullshit. They WRECK HIS SHIT.

Also looks like some light turbo use on the behalf of that Vega… Just saying…

[AEMAKOTO]

Repost from the Q&A thread:

UPDATE on the Q&A front page:

I did quite a bit of updating in the match-up section, so I’m not going to list everything since the changes are very noticeable. Just so you have a rough idea, here’s the sections I added that weren’t there before.

-Chun-li
-Guile
-Vega (claw)
-Adon
-Balrog (boxer)

Plus I added some videos here and there. Gonna keep looking for more.

@Mossad and Robot Mak: I know you guys wanted to keep the match-up section in the Q&A strictly for her “strange/hard” stuff, but the person who started the Match-Up thread doesn’t come to the forum often enough to reorganize the thread and as such, the front page is clearly outdated. I just transferred those nuggets of tech to the Q&A page so they don’t get lost in the shuffle.

Still looking for match-vids to add. Reminder, if you see something good, please send it my way, Mossad’s or Robot Mak’s.

BTW, someone needs to buy Mossad a fruit basket or a hallmark card. A hefty amount of the info we have is due to his research or someone bouncing ideas off of his knowledge.

-Nuts

[Zakbg]

What’s the absolute best way of escaping Zangief’s SPD, GH whiff mix-up? I’ve been using U2 (short version) whenever I can, but beyond that it seems like a complete guessing game.

Anything to screw with EX GH and SPD simultaneously? Nothing feels worse than a Gief who guesses right three times in a row by guessing your backdash with not enough meter to FADC, then you holding down-back, then you holding down-back … again. All off of grabbing with this shit:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/Hoblin/Super%20Street%20Fighter%204%20Hitbox%20Data/Zangief/SPD/LPMPSPD.png

Except you add half the difference between those two pictures to the first picture. 1.75 range.

JUMP BACK FIERCE ALL DAY XD that’s how i beat good giefs , bad giefs and any giefs … jump back fierce baby … especially on their wake up , im absolutely sure there’s a setup for a insant JBF overhead but I dont know how to find one … dont have a mate to help me -.- and training mode is just nerve wrecking when im sure something works but i cant check to be sure

[v-ryu]

stMK OS hayate
stMP OS hayate
crMP OS hayate
crHK (punish lariat from far)
kara EX fukiage
crMK (anti-air)
retreat

> gief

btw, I dont know if gief’s U2 catch makoto backdash. I avoided it once, but dont know if opponent pushed forward.

@zakbg:
if you jumpback HP on gief wakeup, be careful because EX GH (whiff cause you jumped) -> U1 / SPD will grab you when you land

[Zakbg]

Lol that’s true , but unless you play against a mashing idiot , it’s very hard to react and punish the JBF after ex GH … I got a friend who always cries when his ex GH whiffs just because i did JBF and he mainly cries because he couldnt react and punish it lol … otherwise he can just do it on wake up and then expect the JBF and punish it when I land , by the way i started getting used to using HP Oroshi as anti air … i dont know if any of you tried that but its so good LOL

[farplaner]

But if you jump back without pressing fierce, and he did EX GH, maximum punish time!

[v-ryu]

indeed.
And it’s less risky. But you wont counter lariat or backdash attempt. So, I think it’s good to do it when gief hasnt EX. Then switch when he has. (then, proceed to karakusa his face when he stop doing it xD).

Btw, kara EX karakusa is REALLY god in this matchup.

[Zakbg]

But if you jump back without pressing fierce, and he did EX GH, maximum punish time!

hmm … correct me if im wrong but if you jump with an attack instantly dont you recover faster than 4 frames ? Doesent that give you some sort of an advantage when you land ? … wow makoto zangief matchup is funny

[farplaner]

I think you misunderstood what I meant… if you do a jump back on Zangief’s wake up, and he does reversal EX GH trying to catch a backdash or something, you can actually punish him while you’re coming down like you’re jumping in and do a full combo.

[Zakbg]

Yeah I know what you meant but question stays , and if you jump back without HP he can hit you with lariat on your way up so it’s not a very good option … yet if he reacts he can punish you on your way down … god damn it too many 50-50’s

[v-ryu]

not if you jump early enough (hitbox change when you dont hit in the air. That counts for backjump too)

[rzn]

Hi guys. I’ve completed sifting through this whole thread gathering info on every matchup. And now I have a textfile for every character. The info is pretty much unsorted (meaning that I usually just copypasted stuff) and there’s some repeating here and there. Especially in matchups that were thoroughly discussed like Fei Long or Honda. And of course some outdated stuff. But the main part of the job is done at least. I am going to sort it out eventually but I’d like to know, does the board need all this stuff? If you do, I’ll to complete the work faster and share it.

[farplaner]

Of course this will be very helpful! Thanks very much for doing this.

[Roy0]

Hi guys. I’ve completed sifting through this whole thread gathering info on every matchup. And now I have a textfile for every character. The info is pretty much unsorted (meaning that I usually just copypasted stuff) and there’s some repeating here and there. Especially in matchups that were thoroughly discussed like Fei Long or Honda. And of course some outdated stuff. But the main part of the job is done at least. I am going to sort it out eventually but I’d like to know, does the board need all this stuff? If you do, I’ll to complete the work faster and share it.

I got most of the front page info from the AEMakoto thread, but there are some missing matchups up there (Honda. Ryu, etc). Since most of the info on the front page are just links and a few videos, I think there’s enough space to fit some more stuff. If u want, pm me and I’ll update the page. Or, u can just pm mossad man, since he owns the AEMakoto thread

[Nuts]

Hi guys. I’ve completed sifting through this whole thread gathering info on every matchup. And now I have a textfile for every character. The info is pretty much unsorted (meaning that I usually just copypasted stuff) and there’s some repeating here and there. Especially in matchups that were thoroughly discussed like Fei Long or Honda. And of course some outdated stuff. But the main part of the job is done at least. I am going to sort it out eventually but I’d like to know, does the board need all this stuff? If you do, I’ll to complete the work faster and share it.

Send it to me, Mossad Man, or Robot Makoto since we’re the ones who do the information management. I recently took the information found in this thread and put it into the Q&A because I didn’t want it getting lost in the shuffle. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to edit this thread.

[rzn]

Okay then, during the next week I’ll finish and send them all to you guys.

[tdxchan]

Hey guys, any tips on dealing with Abel up close? I never thought I had much of an issue with him in Super, but tonight I played at least 30 games with a decent Abel and I won maybe 8 total. Once he was inside, his normals always beat mine and I had to back dash to try (try being the keyword) to get out of it. My mak is not good in the least, but I felt for the most part that I knew a decent bit on matchups except for the new AE 4. He didn’t roll much, just kept pressuring with a block string and would either hit me with something or get his command throw. My best matches were when I didn’t even let him get into his game.

[soups]

Hi guys. I’ve completed sifting through this whole thread gathering info on every matchup. And now I have a textfile for every character. The info is pretty much unsorted (meaning that I usually just copypasted stuff) and there’s some repeating here and there. Especially in matchups that were thoroughly discussed like Fei Long or Honda. And of course some outdated stuff. But the main part of the job is done at least. I am going to sort it out eventually but I’d like to know, does the board need all this stuff? If you do, I’ll to complete the work faster and share it.

Hey i wouldn’t mind a copy either mind if you can email me it at or pm w/es at

[farplaner]

Ok I’m feeling a bit stupid… Was just playing a Fei Long that is pretty good, but I got to a situation when I happen to block a chicken wing, after that I’m not sure what is my proper action? 2/3 of the time he does chicken wing again which beats most of my options, and if I happen to guess wrong on fukiage… Well, gg lol

[Hitomi]

Ok I’m feeling a bit stupid… Was just playing a Fei Long that is pretty good, but I got to a situation when I happen to block a chicken wing, after that I’m not sure what is my proper action? 2/3 of the time he does chicken wing again which beats most of my options, and if I happen to guess wrong on fukiage… Well, gg lol

HK CW doesn’t have invincibility anymore. Was he using MK or was he using EX? It’s really tough to test this in training mode because I can’t make player 1 Makoto block a recorded CW so that I can time a CW on block perfectly, but it seems from my flawed testing that a crouch tech will indeed beat an HK CW when activated at the same time. The real stupid shit in that CW guessing game is his FK FADC mix-ups. Like against most hit-confirm/invincible move/throw mix-ups, a late ass crouch tech is your best bet, but it’s really not good to let Fei Long start c.LK hit-confirms into pressure uncontested.

Minorly delayed c.LP+LK+HK will hit the CW, tech a throw, and block, but again I’m going off a test that isn’t frame perfect.
Jump back HP will beat a CW.
Backdash early canceled U1 should hit HK/EX CW.