[media=youtube]S7QxOllK0VU[/media]
VS Blanka c.MK beats EX Rainbow clean if you miss or dont do the OS on it.
Let me hear(steal) your technologies and specific experiences when it comes to the Guile and Deejay matchups guys. All I’ve learned is that I can kinda use U2 against Deejay IRL and that his wakeup is easily safejumped. Getting in against a good player is still troublesome and feels more like luck and waiting for them to screw up than anything.
Please? im dying makoto
What’s the absolute best way of escaping Zangief’s SPD, GH whiff mix-up? I’ve been using U2 (short version) whenever I can, but beyond that it seems like a complete guessing game.
Anything to screw with EX GH and SPD simultaneously? Nothing feels worse than a Gief who guesses right three times in a row by guessing your backdash with not enough meter to FADC, then you holding down-back, then you holding down-back … again. All off of grabbing with this shit:
Except you add half the difference between those two pictures to the first picture. 1.75 range.
backjump avoid both. But you risk to eat crLP -> etc
Good shit. I just read this. I was about to come in here and bitch about this match-up. My bad matchups are running short. This is my worst matchup and I’m about to follow this and what vryu said as well.
Lol I grabbed bison out of EX Psycho Crusher with a meaty Karakusa today LMFAO. I’m starting to like this matchup 
st :hk: is amazing against dictator. I don’t think I would have never found that out on my own. Who even thinks of trying that? Nice work guys.
Just make sure he blocks it, if you’re doing it to stuff Scissor pressure. St.rh is pretty easy to whiff punish for Dic. If he lk scissors and you’re close enough boot him in the mug go for it. If he’s too far away, try cr.mk. It does pretty much the same thing for less damage/stun (stuffs st.rh, another scissors, etc.), but it’s harder to whiff punish.
If he is pushed too far you can stuff his next move with CR. MP
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
That’s a vryu special
Well, I am not good enough with Mak yet to help out with much but I do know Gief, so I can write about this from that side of the matchup.
Off of SPD to gh Gief’s options are pretty much guesses unless you have shown a tendency go for certain escapes. My list of post spd mixups is pretty much this:
Before they are taught to jump-
-HP SPD; I will usually go for this first to see if they know the matchup, gimmicky giant damage and trains them to jump
-s.mp, acts as a tick for another SPD on hit or block and can hit people for jumping
-c.lk tick that can keep them on the ground, opens up another command grab; tough to confirm for another GH
-exgh on reaction (or sometimes anticipation/random) for backdash With 3 bars this is made fairly safe
-delay step forward lp.spd for backdashes ( I forget to do this a lot, Aquasilk makes this a deadly option)
-c.lp os sweep for backdashes
-c.mk (unsafe xbl gimmick for grab)
All of these are to make the other person decide to jump back, after which:
-U2- will catch backdash, n.jump or jump back
-j.hp
-s.hk
-short jump instant knees (grab/combo setup, unsafe but confusing)
-j.lp (grab/combo setup)
Mak’s responses that I have experienced playing the matchup from Gief side:
-As V-Ryu said jump back hp is stellar; will beat most of his chasing options, delayed it can mess him up for going for another gh to chase- eventually Gief’s pretty much plan to punish people for running after establishing some initial damage and this can become a liability
-N.jump hk is very good, but riskier because of c.lariat trade to EXGH juggle or Gief can backdash to lp.SPD. Basically though doing a couple n.jumps if Gief lands SPD then gh in will keep the Gief honest: it is an easy easy big punish if Gief goes for SPD, if Gief goes for EXGH he will go under (hold up if you see that since he can SPD from that whiff very effectively) If Gief blocks j.mk you have karakusa setup, lariat can be beat by j.hk etc.
-backdash loses to EXGH or regular gh follow (if you are grounded regular gh is free punish, but still airborne it knocks down), backdash will lose to U2 but Gief has to use it on a read, very difficult to land it on reaction.
-don’t throw out attacks or karakusa, just think about mixing up your escapes
-U2 may well be worth it just to get out, especially since Gief is easier to fuki than much of the cast so there are good AA damage opportunities. U1 hs its utility in this matchup, but essentially every situation that might call for U1 outside of karakusa are covered by other options (AA fuki, punishing baited EXGH on block…)
Gief really isn’t as difficult as everyone says. I play BP Amoco a few times a month and this matchup is definitely manageable.
My notes:
-Backdash wins, and Makoto should be backdashing first. If she backdashes, and youthrow this out, just subtract -300 or so health from gief from punishment.
-again Backdash wins. Resets the spacing
-Backdash, but dangerous for Mak because he can throw out EX GH and keep her standing
-Backdash will get KD, with the ability to quick rise. Witth he low damage of EX GH, I couldn’t expect another so Backdash wins here too. Only time i won’t back dash is if i’m in the corner. In that case 9 times out of 10 gief will try to bait a jump or try to safe jump. Depending on which he chooses, fuki wins, or FA backdash (out of the corner wins). If he chooses GH/EX GH again, remember for future reference, and try to throw out EX Oroshi ASAP because if Mak can’t get out mak dies quick.
-This should only work once or twice. Not consecutively. Won’t stop me from backdashing unless I get hit more than once. If I do, then Neutral jump next time to try to bait lariat, and HK Tsurugi to punish. If no lariat, then this gief is better than most, and next time will do j.HK, jump back HP to get out.
-Backdash wins
To beat gief here:
-NEVER jump in a predictable situation when gief has U2. OR, jump early and try to make him burn it. Take the smaller damage and get it out of the way. Sometimes your jump is more important to your game. Better to just not jump against gief w/U2. He’s not as dangerous on the ground, so bait a greenhand and backthrow instead. Begin Mixup.
-If you are jumping, you should ALWAYS jump back HP. It beats ALL of giefs non U2 jumping options, hits SPD attempt, allows for LK Karakusa to GH/EX GH whiff attempt, Hits Lariat, Hits super/ultra (must do HP REALLY early), hits all standing normals. Only loses to U2 if timed correctly.
-loses to Jump back HP
-also loses to jump back HP, but may trade, if it does (or if mistimed) Mak is instantly out of pressure due to the reset.
-again loses to jump back HP. See this ^^
See a trend lol?
Concerning Mak’s Responses:
-Agreed. Gief has to find a way to stop Mak from using jb HP. Otherwise this match is pointless. IMO, 6-4 Mak wins if Gief has U1 and Mak has U1, 5-5 if Gief has U2 and Makoto has U1, and 7-3 Gief wins if both have U2 since U2 will be generally useless for Makoto against a good gief. Gief MUST use U2 in this match for a convincing victory. Otherwise its a toss up.
- Sort of agree, but Mak should never nj HK unless its on giefs wakeup. UNLESS gief has never used Lariat. If he has then use HK Tsurugi. Also don’t forget that nj. MK is better for beating Lariat than HK due to the active frames and a nice hit box. Otherwise the game plan should be jb HP and poke him TO DEATH without gettting limb grabbed. Boring, I know, but that’s what you have to do to win.
-I will take this as opposed to letting gief get comfortable with SPD. Its a necessary evil. But jb. HP wins here. Even if whiff, you can punish the GH/EX GH with normal throw. Always go for back throw. Should be using jb.HP here. It is the one tool you need to beat gief up close. Don’t be afraid of U2. It will happen in a freak accident every now and then, but don’t expect gief to waste it on a backdash unless Mak is VERY predictable.
-Completely disagree. You can grab gief just like any other character. You just have to establish your offense first. A couple of things will help this along:
1-after he hits you with his first lariat, most likely he will do a green hand to close the distance and then try to s.MP or something to stop you from backdashing/jumping. Any karakusa will beat any normal he chooses.
2-Don’t be afraid to dash up to gief and grab. This is the LAST thing that’s on his mind. I swear, you can dash under all of his high normals and LK karakusa.
3-after you’ve established your offense/safejumps/meaties on his wakup, do not be afraid to Karakusa his wakeup. An excellent example is hiting him with an EX Hayate, Dashing X2 and running up and doing s. HK. It beats all non EX/non Ultra options except Backdash. If he gets hit, then combo. If he blocks back off. But the NEXT time you hit him with EX Hayate, do Dashx2, and HK Karakusa. I swear if he stands there or tries to attack, he gets grabbed.
4-Meaty Karakusa beats all wakup options that are not lariat (although i’ve grabbed it some times, i do not know why), SPD, Ultra, Backdash, and jump. Gauge what he will do the first time you try it and adjust your strategy accordingly. Notice that GH was not in there. That’s because she will grab him
5-If he is using SPD during your block strings, start doing HK IAT instead (say after 2x blocked lp). I promise he will stop mashing SPD. When he does, he will be prone to s.LK Karakara and onld EX Karakara. This is a big deal because it stops him from mashing SPD and LP/MP.
Don’t forget that you can grab him. Its part of your game, you have to change enough, but you don’t have to change this. Use it because it is not what he is expecting, as Guru just demonstrated 
-Please don’t use U2 in this match. U1 always gives you a better advantage. You shouldn’t get into the corner, but if you do, you’re dead unless you can EX Oroshi or Fuki your way out. Passing up on the damage of U1 for “getting out” isn’t worth it in this match because once you have U1, gief can’t jump. can’t random EX GH, can’t mash on Wake Up, or pretty much anything else from close range. He’s also more prone to defend in close quarters because he’s scared. He also will not stand there on your wakeup. Expect someNJ Headbutts. Punish with MP fuki. Many other situations exist obviously. Point is, just do yourself a favor and use U1. Gief is coming to you. That’s half of your work done for you.
-Keep fukiage cocked like a Mak 10 lol. Especially EX Fukiage. if he ever jumps, don’t go for the full combo, go for JHP reset (unless he is about to die) and see what he does. when he lands. Judge whether you will be able to dash karakusa/tickakusa/blockakusa/whatever. Otherwise, continue frustrating him and removing his options to get in.
EDIT: Watch how Haitani does it. illustrates almost all of my points in one match:
[media=youtube]qFSFLywRdy8[/media]
I guess my point with U2 over U1 is that Gief can’t jump anyways, since even trade fuki is big damage; and random blocked EXGH are already big punishes with karakusa to bnb. Not the same level of damage, but damage regardless. U2 gives you a spacing reset on the entire match.
edit, also:
-Backdash wins, and Makoto should be backdashing first. If she backdashes, and youthrow this out, just subtract -300 or so health from gief from punishment.
-again Backdash wins. Resets the spacing
-Backdash, but dangerous for Mak because he can throw out EX GH and keep her standing
-Backdash will get KD, with the ability to quick rise. Witth he low damage of EX GH, I couldn’t expect another so Backdash wins here too. Only time i won’t back dash is if i’m in the corner. In that case 9 times out of 10 gief will try to bait a jump or try to safe jump. Depending on which he chooses, fuki wins, or FA backdash (out of the corner wins). If he chooses GH/EX GH again, remember for future reference, and try to throw out EX Oroshi ASAP because if Mak can’t get out mak dies quick.
-This should only work once or twice. Not consecutively. Won’t stop me from backdashing unless I get hit more than once. If I do, then Neutral jump next time to try to bait lariat, and HK Tsurugi to punish. If no lariat, then this gief is better than most, and next time will do j.HK, jump back HP to get out.
-Backdash wins
From a Gief standpoint I am completely fine with backdash; I just landed big damage and the Makoto is moving towards a corner. Jump back hp is the tough one to contend with, since it places Mak at a distance with many more options it seems.
U2 in this match gets beat/trades with too much. And pretty much you can die even trying to escape because a good gief with u2 will Headbutt when you’re in the corner to make you waste your U2 AND now you can’t jump out. Its not a good escape. You have to manhandle your way out of the corner. Depending on U2 is too risky.
Plus U1 is guaranteed damage in this match, and Mak needs that damage. More importantly she needs him to fear karakusa so she can start true mixup. U1 is just better. Yes Fuki is good in this match but U1 is more of a close up threat. Without U1 Gief doesn’t fear karakusa as much. He doesn’t mind just mashing normals up close. Doesn’t mind trying to meaty jumpins into SPD EX GH mixups on wakeup. With U1 his game has to change, and a lot of giefs can’t change it on the fly like that.
@Mossad and Guro Primo: This is great stuff, I’m definitely putting this on the 1st page. I like the point/counter-point/reinforce discussion. IMO, I think the hardest part about fighting Gief is having to switch your playstyle from “I’m gonna run your ass over” to “annoying Chun-Li poke style”
@Everyone: Alright, time for another poll. What do you guys think of using some of FAX’s matches. Yes, I understand FAX has a reputation for operating under logic only he understands, but occasionally he shows some really good ideas everyone can use. There’s a new post by Hav in the vid thread that contains a match vs Claw. FAX abuses the shit out of Tsurugi, and it works rather well (at least in this game). Most losses I’ve seen in this match-up are due to Makoto trying to outpoke Vega, but that usually doesn’t turn out too well (in my experience at least).
Give 'em a look and send me some feedback.
I agree, from a footsie perspective he’s the least random of all grapplers and is least able to screw with standard play unless he has meter and wants to die with random EX GHs. T. Hawk has an annoying aerial mix-up of dive, late dive, jumping attack, and empty jump Ultra/Super/MT, and he can screw with buffer pokes with his Condor Spire. Oiled Hakan has a great focus attack and his slide + slide FADC Crisco mix-ups. At least, that’s been my experience against these characters, and I haven’t found a great answer to those two mix-ups aside from hoping they take the risky option and punish, and not actually countering it.
An extremely high-level Abel told me his answer to T. Hawk’s aerial game was to block until T. Hawk was close, then jump back HP. I assume this works even better with Makoto. I really want to get a great answer going for that stuff, because it’s low-level stuff that works against me.
It seems to me the only really good poke Zangief has against Makoto’s s.MK/s.MP/c.MP is his c.LK buffered EX GH, which I’m guessing requires our own risky c.LK buffers to take out. Sound about right?
C.lk buffered EXGH is probably Gief’s go to; s.lk buffered EXGH is nice too. from roughly dash distance I will poke buffer s.lp or c.lp as well; especially with life lead. Can’t really argue with s.mp either; it isn’t on the same level as Mak’s but it is great as a “range finder” and is quick. Good rule of thumb is if you are blocking Gief’s s.mp and he is hitting anywhere within where fingers meet his palm it is a potential SPD tick. Keep your eyes open for long range sweep too. Slow as hell and almost a forehead slapper when it lands but it goes far and under s.mk
Well I think Mak should be spacing herself so that her pokes are at Max Range. This way you get a trade in your favor at best from gief. I peronally dont’ use max range c.LK against gief because his LP SPD range is greater than it. I try to stick with our normal Poke pressure. Although I see Haitani really using s.MP a lot more than the others. Weird, but it works. I keep using the other two, but I get limb grabbed pretty often. I really don’t focus on Buffer pokes in the gief match. I keep it more 1 and done lol. Oh and c.MK/HK are obviously great too, i forgot to mention those. It beats a lot of his crap. But yeah the problem with buffer-poking is that if he blocks it and your Hayte comes out, he gets FREE SPD. So as much as I hate to say it, i have to lame him out and frustrate him with the pokes and occasional dash grabs. Ah well… I’m like want me to play differently? Then pick someone else lmao.
Also I seriously think Mak players should consider Karakusa more against gief when possible. Its not just about pokes. There are so many situations where you can grab him. Just go to be careful. I grabbed a gief a bunch of times over 50 matches over and over and over again. He told me that gief isnt’ supposed to get grabbed like that. I asked why not? He said CAUSE ITS GIEF. GIEF DOES THE GRABBING.
Apparently not.
So yeah pokes are important but I think the ultimate core of Mak’s game is Karakusa, so even though we’re keeping him out, and even though its risky, it simply must fit in somewhere. We just have to make sure it will land.
^ I completely agree. Nothing mindfucks a Gief player more than getting thrown. It literally rocks them back on their heels.