i use ultra 2 vs geif cuz it beats lariat and it gets me out of trouble when i get knocked down and he starts his mixup. and alot of times if i run away and start building meter geif will prolly throw out an “i can build meter too!” lariat and he just gets ultra’d for free. its kinda funny. but yea just poke his ass to death.
Wow, that’s pretty specific. Did you do notes for other characters like this? I’d definitely learn a bit more from them.
True, but the important words are: on reaction. Gief charging and actually executing 720 on reaction while you are in the air is rare I think. HK Tsurugi is -1 on block, so and mistimed SPDs can be jump back HP’d. Really, makoto is negative a lot until AE, so we have learned to deal with it I guess. My point was really to try and stay away from Gief and poke him as long as you can. Then mix in your options once you get a knock down…
Honestly though, it usually takes them a few tries to figure out that they should be blocking. Giefs have fits if they sit on defense too long or get knocked down too much. They also rely on lariat more than SPD or ultra on wakeup…
i need some safe jump and cross up setup info! guile, shotos, etc. where can i get those setups?
In the lab.
Seen stuff [media=youtube]N8oIZzbaXSw"[/media]?
Makoto has an unblockable j.MK against Ryu after Ultra 1. Immediately dash, f+HK (corpse hop), hold toward Ryu for a short time, then jump MK. If you do it right in training mode recording, your foot should go through his head and you’ll land on the side you originally jumped from. I wish I could record video, this is as much as I can do to explain it.
Holding block in either direction doesn’t work, it stuffs EX hurricane and all SRKs for a reset except EX which sails away. Backdash, super, ultra all whiff if they are reversals and you can punish. I assume f+HP works as an OS, but the recording window isn’t long enough to try it, hah. For that reason, this is annoying to test/practice. Also, doesn’t work in the corner for obvious reasons, though a different setup isn’t impossible.
Characters it works on: Ryu, Ken, Fei Long (beware U2), Akuma, Guy (unsafe to reversals)
Methods to avoid it: Same as other unblockables, delayed block, delayed reversal.
I think it will not be the only thing she can get an unblockable after. I’m not too hopeful about backthrow because of j.MK hitbox/bad walk speed, but we’ll see. Also HK Tsurugi might be applicable for these tricks, although I’m not certain whether the trajectory allows it.
hahaha, i was waiting to finish work and go home to test some unblockables too xD you did it first.
GG 
i already worked in the lab with tsurugi to crossup after backthrow and EX oroshi, but doesnt work.
oh, and as you said, in think it doesnt work with backthrow. But after a karakusa, i’m sure we can find some things to be far enough (like stMP*3 -> EX oroshi -> unblockable).
edit:
to record stuff like this. Use a ryu dummy, start record mash backdash at the end of ultra1.
And make a video from the end of ultra1 (we dont need to see full animation, we already know it^^).
You will gain some seconds
re-edit:
from what i’ve “calculated”, you can make unblockable while hitting 2 frames after his wakeup.
here is gouki’s one:
forward throw (74F wakeup vs shotos) -> dash2 (182) -> jump MK (40F)
74F vs 76F
I think you should apply this rule to make unblockable, but have to find the good distance to do it.
If i’m right, here is what to test (against normal wakeup characters):
wakeup frames(WF) + 2 - 40
-
crHP:
cannot crossup at all -
EX oroshi: 68 WF
=> 30 frames to be at the distance -
backthrow: 60 WF
=> 22 frames to be at the distance -
HP oroshi: 73 WF
=> 35 frames to be at the distance -
ultra1: 89 WF
=> 51 frames to be at the distance
for the point 5 and what arc-rail wrote:
dash -> f+HK feint = 44 frames
Since you wrote you have to walk forward a bit before jumping, i guess this is the 7 frames gap, am i right?
You’re probably right. Honestly I wasn’t working with a specific frame setup, other than the idea that I wanted to hit on the second frame of wakeup, so your data should be very nice to help. I was trying this particular setup with f+HK because of my theory as to why these unblockables work. I thought in order to get an unblockable midscreen against most characters requires a back-turned knockdown.
Besides the timing, I think there is lenience with the spacing, because when I tried the Cammy version, I got a recording that worked against Ryu and Ken and not Chun Li or Rufus, who it’s supposed to work against. I think that time, my timing was correct but my spacing was just a little off, but still close enough to hit those 2 characters.
That makes me think that there will be character-specific spacing with Makoto’s setups. The timing I recorded worked as an unblockable against Ryu, Ken, Fei Long, Akuma, and Guy, but it might be possible against more characters if I stood still for a frame or two instead of walking forward, or something like that. I’m not 100% sure that I was frame-perfect either, so I’ll have to verify that later also.
I’m going to take a break now. I’ll try the different setups later.
I didnt check every characters.
But vs feilong in corner:
EX oroshi -> dash -> stLK ->jump HP (doesnt crossup) / jump NK (crossup)
xD
To clarify, my theory is that SF4 in its infinite wisdom decides to give you a larger “blocking” hitbox when you hold towards the opponent and your back is turned, causing you to be hit immediately as a non-crossup. When you’re blocking away from your opponent, the game gives you a “neutral” small hitbox (since you are holding toward your character’s front), causing the jump-in to whiff for a frame, and then cross you up on the next frame.
It’s the only way I can make sense of the concept, normally by common sense, holding back moving you into a crossup that would hit normal otherwise shouldn’t work.
Corner-specific unblockables like Akuma’s could be the result of a similar weird input situation that occurs in the corners in this game. I have no explanation for [media=youtube]0N-dpPEUWPM&feature=related"[/media] though, I guess it’s something weird with Cammy’s hitbox/animation.
Edit: I think I was wrong about the timing on the original setup. I might have done the f+HK a frame late, which would have meant I was only walking forward for 6 frames or so. I found another variant which works on the same characters, except the f+HK fails to corpse-hop Fei Long. This variant also works on Viper, although it loses to EX Burn Kick. It didn’t cross her up the first time.
Also found another variant that works on Cammy (tap back then stand still, instead of walking forward), and it stuffs cannon spike for a full ground combo, but it was crouchable. I might have just had bad timing on the j.MK that time, will have to recheck.
No luck on other setups so far besides U1.
Rough groups of where characters wake up in relation to Makoto after U1 -> dash -> f+HK, subject to change, from closest to farthest:
Dhalsim
Blanka
Sakura
*#Cammy
*Bison (delay f+HK slightly)
#Ibuki
*#Ryu
*#Ken
*#Akuma
*#Guy
*Fei Long (delay f+HK slightly)
*#C.Viper
Juri
Makoto
El Fuerte
Chun Li
Gen (delay f+HK slightly)
Dan (delay f+HK slightly)
#Gouken
Cody
Adon
Rose
#Vega
Balrog
Dee Jay (delay f+HK slightly)
Sagat
Seth
Hakan (delay f+HK)
Zangief (delay f+HK)
T. Hawk (delay f+HK)
Abel
Guile
Honda
Dudley (can’t hop?)
+Rufus (can’t hop?)
*Found an unblockable after U1
#Found an unblockable after EX Oroshi FADC
+Found an unblockable after backthrow
-After U1-
Variant 1: immediate dash, f+HK, hold toward opponent, jump MK. Works on: Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Guy, Viper
Variant 2: immediate dash, delay f+HK slightly, hold toward opponent, jump MK. Works on: Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Fei Long, Guy
Variant 3: immediate dash, f+HK, tap back, wait, jump MK. Works on: Cammy (crouchable?)
Variant 4: immediate dash, delay f+HK, wait, tap toward opponent, jump MK. Works on: Bison
-After EX Oroshi FADC-
Variant 1: FADC forward, f+HK, wait, tap towards opponent, jump MK. Works on: Viper, Akuma, Guy
Variant 2: FADC forward, delay f+HK, wait, tap towards opponent, jump MK. Works on: Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Viper, Ibuki
Variant 3: FADC forward, f+HK, hold toward opponent, jump MK. Works on: Vega (crouchable)
Variant 4: FADC forward, delay f+HK, hold toward opponent, jump MK. Works on: Gouken
Variant 5: FADC forward, delay f+HK, hold back, jump MK. Works on: Cammy (crouchable), Ibuki
v-ryu, where do you get your frame data for wake up frames and such? I’ve been experiment with something similar to this with U1 -> mp fukiage -> j.fp against certain characters (Guile and Balrog seem to be ripe pickings), but as it stands, it’s just a really ambiguous jump in.
Added stuff to the post above about more setups, for knowledge’s sake. Off backthrow, I could only find the generic midscreen unblockable against Rufus that a couple other characters have (just back up and jump HP, but he can duck it to avoid it, or use EX snake strike and hit you.) If you mess up the timing it’s still ambiguous, with perfect timing it’s unblockable.
In addition, off midscreen EX Oroshi (and probably regular Oroshi) you can do an expensive unblockable against a bunch of characters. FADC the Oroshi, f+HK, wait (move forward or back depending on the character), jump MK. The spacing is easier against some characters than others, for example Gouken’s probably isn’t worth trying since it takes pretty specific spacing/timing and he has a couple ways to get out of it including high counter. Other characters like Ibuki and Guy can reversal you with meter.
The Cammy one seems easier than the others. It requires specific timing/spacing to hit Ibuki, but there’s more lenience with hitting Cammy with the same setup, you can mess up and still get it. However, in return, she can avoid it by crouching, you’d have to mix it up with something else if they know that.
There are notes in various states of completion for a lot of characters. It’s not written so fluently though, and it’s mostly subjective info, but I was thinking of posting them when I’ve got a sufficient amount for all characters. I had some PC issues lately so I couldn’t access them recently.
Tested this here are results -input: -ex oroshi: dash -> st lk (whiff) -> pause 1-2 f -> jump f hp/mk
-hp oroshi: f+hp (whiff) -> jump f hp/mk
-effect: jump f hp doesn?t cross up (fakes cross) and keeps them in corner whilst jump mk crosses up.
-works on: Dudley & gouken & guile (if blocks cross will still hit and you land cross, must block non cross), fei long, seth & juri & t hawk (always end in corner but must block it non cross or hit), abel, viper & hakan & zangief & fuerte & cammy* (if blocks towards corner blocks and you end up in corner), dictator, Dee jay (will whiff if blocks towards corner note), rufus, claw (not really 50/50 as blocked like jump mk and puts in corner?)
*Cammy wakes up 1f later so delay jump 1f
Also nice stuff arc rail, ill try some of that stuff out soonish see how it goes. Too much info haha
Me and Cydvis played a really long set yesterday, I was using mostly Seth and Ryu, and basically far strong punch with Ryu beat everything Makoto did, even c.fp.
She has lots of counters to Ryu’s s.MP. Far s.MK xx MP/EX Hayate, far s.HP xx whatever, c.HP (only gets stuffed if her hitbox moves forward into the s.MP, only at closer ranges), s.MP in general, Tsurugis, and FAs all work every time as long as the spacing is right.
The best counter to a move like that is cr.MK at cr.MK’s ideal range. If you have the chance to use it, it has the best chance of stuffing it. Otherwise, the options covered in the above post are all good. I’d say the top 3 are cr.MK, FA, and whiff-punishing with f+MP.
It has 4 active and 14 recovery, so it’s fairly easy to whiff punish with f+MP especially, also cr.HP and poke xx Hayate. And if you’re fast you can catch it with f+HP at long range (13 startup.)
Makoto’s s.MP is basically the same move except better (less recovery, more active, cancelable) so that’s worth keeping in mind. As Robot Makoto mentioned, s.HP can be surprisingly more effective at stuffing it because it doesn’t move your hitbox forward as much during startup, but watch out because it has long recovery. Don’t overlook f+LP also.
I took a few sets a few days back against an aspiring Cody, pretty even. He comes back today and has leveled up his game pretty well, and I won, IIRC, 1 out of about 10. Run the game plan by me, please, because I’m getting wrecked by the frame traps.
It’s established that it’s pretty damn hard to jump at Cody, and if your AAs are spot on, it’s usually a bad idea for Cody to jump as well. So that leaves footsies and a ground game, where Cody is constantly at frame advantage with his moves and he can actually walk during the footsies.
I feel like I have to turtle against Cody, usually with s.MP and s.MK. I’ve also had a little bit of luck with c.MK in this match-up, seems to stuff his advances well. Anything more concrete? I do fine on his wakeup, I just need to stop getting CH all day on the way there.
Edit: just found c.MK goes under rocks at close range, and it beats his tick throw setup f+HK, whereas a c.LK will whiff and be thrown. Maybe the LP+LK+MK option select is decent against Cody? Probably not, I’m just looking for an answer for the pressure beyond block and backdash.
the main page really needs to be updated & maintained
i’ve been thinking of compiling a list of some of the less obvious things you can counter with Ultra1 after discovering that you can nab Dudley on a blocked EX Machinegun Blow & Ryu after a blocked sweep…came to check if it was already put in the info summaries, but course it’s not. i mean i don’t got time to be checkin all 51 pages, or be here every day to keep up on the latest, some nigga need to take care o that shit
vs. Chun: Focus Hazanshou (flip kick overhead), forward dash, lk karakusa to punish.