Makoto Strategy and Match-ups

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
501

I was on the Lab today practicing makoto. I think she’s good, just not good enough. I was working on her mixup after a back throw.
VS Viper… After a back throw, makoto can option select ex chop. It beats ex seismo but loses to viper’s uppercut.
here’s how i do it. back throw, dash-in, neutral jump late RH and input ex chop while she’s still in the air and end it with a st. med punch.
On Chun back dash. I tried option select hayate, but hayate wouldn’t hit on time. After a back throw. neutral jump RH input forward mk and end it with a a st. med punch.
Makoto can also safe jump on chun li ex SBK after a backthrow. just empty jump a do the RH late.

I don’t have an xbox or ps3, otherwise i would’ve made a video of makoto option select.
she has one on dhalsim and bison.
I’m starting to understand her a lot more now.

502

just meaty S.lp and you can avoid getting hit by either

503

sounds like we need to meet up at some point. Wouldn’t mind seeing some of this stuff.

504

I’m going to Xanadu tomorrow. See you there if you go. but i’ll be playing chun there.

505

can kara lp or mp hayate punish flip?

506

Just to add on option selecting/safe jump on by ludthinks on chun. st. mk can catch chun’s backdash. Unfortunately, mak’s sweep doesn’t go far enough. So safe jump and use st mk will catch her chun backdash, but it doesn’t give mak much momentum though. Something like st. lp~st. mk also works. Another chun option select is if you know the right time to IA HK Tsurugi to beat her ex sbk, you can do something like IA HK Tsurugi hold focus (and absorb one of chun’s favorite wakeups, back dash to cr. rh) and dash in and punish. If the IA HK Tsurugi is blocked, just apply your pressure.
Edit: These are not the best options, refer to Neber’s post #510 for why.

507

Against Dudley’s it looks like you can FA alot, then backdash on reaction once the first MGB hits, as long as you’re not in the corner. Easy hayate charge or C.HP punish. No clue if that’s been discussed before or not.

508

anyone have tips on a turtle happy Guy? c.MP seems to stuff all of Makoto’s good pokes.

509

I never seen anyone play the same style as Makoto as I do. All I see is everyone being similar and looks like SRK kind of guys by judging by some of the tools they are using. I’d like to share how I play my Makoto and anyone could take or give ideas and let’s see where it goes.

I base most of my game around st.lp: st.lp > Karakusa (tick throw), st.lp > cr.lk xx n (low mix up), st.lp xx EX/lp Oroshi (overhead), st.lp > EX/HK Tsurugi low to ground (goes over most footsies), st.lp > st.hp/st.lk (beat out jump outs) and I cancel st.lk into hayate or oroshi depending if I hit the opponent or they block and almost always hayate cancel the st.hp.

Also from st.lp > st.lk/cr.lk, I mix up low to ground tsurugi to keep the pressure on or to beat counter pokes. I treat Tsurugi like how I treat a hop in KOF, to beat out low poking. Such as low poking beats out anti air normals but lose to hops, hops beat low pokes but lose to anti air normals such as a mexican uppercut, and anti air normals usually have bad horizontal hitboxes so they usually lose to low pokes or sweeps. Reversal anything that’s unsafe is usually hard to do on reaction against a hop during a block string and could be punished when the recipient actually does nothing but block. I try to see if the opponent is fond of trying to counter poke or throw a follow up karakusa or oroshi and try to capitalize on them trying to push buttons; my answer is tsurugi. Once I start trying to stack pressure and keep them honest (to just keep blocking), then I start mixing up the other tools such as overheads and karakusa. I played against a great recently and she was back dashing out a bunch of my stuff so for now all I could really think of doing is something like st.lp/st.lk > dash forward or sweep. I haven’t had the pleasure of playing against more good Chun Li players yet so I haven’t tried applying this consciously yet.

My reasoning of playing why I do is to force the opponent to make active decisions in a short amount of time and capitalizing upon it. If parries weren’t in 3s, I’d have used st.lp much more than st.mp but the fact that st.lp could be parried both high and low made it really risky to use as a meaty or such. In SSFIV, I have no reason to be scared of anything else but of reversals. Off of st.lp, I try to force people to decide to block low or high, to mash jabs or shorts low or not to punish karakusa/overhead, to counter throw, to reversal with something like a shoryu or not, and etc. Sometimes they just get so caught up in trying to reversal, they forget that Makoto just has the option to block since she’s on plus frames after st.lp/st.lk/cr.lk or such and Makoto could just punish afterwards.

I’m sure there are some holes in my gameplan as I am human, there are mistakes. To me, that’s how I play Makoto and that’s why I like Makoto and if anyone would like to try my way or just to utterly insult me, call me a dumb bitch, and tell me what’s wrong with the way I play; I’m welcome to that too.

In terms of getting around projectiles, I just low to ground tsurugi (preferably HK for knockdown). I usually like scoring the hard knock down than landing the tsurugi combos or what not because I prefer to have situational advantage rather than eeking out the most damage I can in a single opprotunity. For anti-air, I just cr.mk everything and just try to block cross ups and any follow ups afterwards; I quit SFIV back last March and picked up KOF98 in July and been playing that since. I still lack certain SFIV nuances like delay teching throws or knowing what to do against Focus nonsense. Oh well, I’ll just list some of the mix up combinations I do.

“Meaty Whiff” > Oroshi (usually EX)/Karakusa
cr.lk > Hayate/Karakusa/Oroshi/Tsurugi/Block
st.lp > Oroshi/Karakusa/Tsurugi/Block/Back dash
st.lp > cr.lk > hcbf+hk/Oroshi/Hayate/Tsurugi/Block/Back dash/j.mk Cross Up
st.lp > st.lk > Hayate/Oroshi/Tsurugi/j.mk Cross up/Block/dash under if anti air st.lk
st.lp > st.hp > hayate cancel
st.lp > st.lp > whatever
j.mk > st.lp/whatever > whatever
j.mk > dash in (at the furthest range that j.mk hits a blocking opponent

Then other stuff I noticed:
I could beat out Jaguar Tooth more easily with neutral j.hk rather than st.mp on reaction. Just for me.
I stand right next to Chun Li on wake up then neutral jump when she should reversal, neutral j.mk beats out ex spinning bird quite well without trade. Need to try that out more and see if Chun has any other reversal options that stop j.mk.
Cr.mk strings seems work so far in terms of getting people into a frame trap and getting hit by sweep. Something like cr.mk > cr.mk > sweep or just cr.mk > sweep.
Cr.hk doesn’t seem as good as it used to be but cr.mk seems to take its place as an anti air. J.hp seems beefed so it’s good as an anti air and a jump in if one doesn’t want stuff to trade.

Sorry if my explanation was sloppy. Thanks for any feedback what so ever.

510

You can only OS effectively with S.MP that’s why we dont’ use S.LP that much except it’s a good meaty to bait ultras/slow reversals. They get free backdashes on you. Same with tsurugi and it’s really bad on block, you lose momentum if you arent’ landing it often.

511

Are you on PSN? I think I just played you earlier today, I used Cody and the first round your Makoto was giving me a bit of trouble, lol.

512

[media=youtube]v4ulx-qL_8k[/media]

Watch and discuss.

513

Yeah, I had a pretty healthy session on PSN today. I think your SRK screen name rings a few bells. Good stuff.

Haha, ggs sparskter. He and I go a ways back from an IRC channel and we’re brokotos that played sessions on GGPO. He came a long ways but I feel like he needs a bit more.

How I handle the Balrog match up is just get him in tick situations and mainly tsurugi pressure him since Balrog loves Jabs. Haven’t found a Balrog that goes KOF/Heavy D on me and does st. jabs mash against Tsurugi; I catch them each time they try to counter poke karakusa and I tsurugi them. From there, it’s baiting out reversal headbutts.

514

First, a few corrections. The only normals that leave you at positive frames on block in Super are s.MP (+2), s.LP (+2), and c.LP (+1). Everything else, you’re either at neutral or negative frames on block.

s.LP is essentially s.MP minus the silly priority and combo ability to specials that leave you at positive on hit, as none of her specials leave you at positive on block anymore (LP Hayate leaves you at neutral on hit IE you don’t get frame advantage). I’d see it being effective as frame traps into her other normals (s.MP and s.HP) perhaps, but outside of that, unless your using meatys all day before your specials, I’m pretty sure you’ll have holes in your strings that will get reversal’d.

As for Tsurugi, the LK version is apparently the worst version to use. Low to the ground LK Tsurugi leaves you at -3, lol. Better off using MK and HK which only leaves you only at -1.

Again, the weaker version special is the most unsafe one on block, lulz.

Interesting strategy none the less.

515

Yeah, there are holes in the attack strings as there aren’t any chains. So I test waters or just make mash out reversals so I mix in doing nothing/blocking. Doing nothing makes me feel like I’m doing Virtua Fighter mindgames or something.

The reason why I like st.lp because the “process” is overall quicker than st.mp and the push back isn’t that much so I can mix up more after st.mp on block. St.mp is nice if one happens to actually do hit with it and hitconfirm into a combo, but to me it feels more limited in what one could do afterwards (when blocked). St.lp, seems to me, makes others start to panic a bit more since I could follow with lows/highs/grabs/“hops” and they have to make a quicker decision compared to st.mp, in which there are few mix up options after block and the whole process of it being block and the follow up takes more times so the opponent could recollect better. But yeah, that’s how I play and like to play her.

>(LP Hayate leaves you at neutral on hit IE you don’t get frame advantage)

Actually, I end up not comboing much into hayate as much. In terms of doing hayate in block strings, I just don’t do that. I’d say that’s my Third Strike rigidity in never comboing into hayate unless I’m certain I’ll combo into. So I end up mostly punishing counter pokes with Tsurugi, getting a Karakusa and ending in EX Oroshi/HP Hayate, or landing an LP/EX Oroshi (mostly the latter). I guess there is a better advantage after st.mp > st.mp xx mp hayate and the follow ups afterwards rather than doing something like st.lp > st.lk xx lp hayate. I guess that’s advantageous if one tries to play with the mindset of gaining a “post hayate situation”. I think that’s what most Makoto players try to get as that’s how they played Makoto in 3s, somehow land the Hayate then mix up afterwards. For me, it’s dancing around close range and mixing up. In 3s, hayate reset the situation to do whatever afterwards. In Super now, I am still in “my” optimal range as Makoto after jab Hayate; where as I think most Makotos aren’t as that’s not how they played.

516

this loss was all due to the player himself. he didnt capitalize on knock downs. wasnt using the right normals (example: s.mp as his poke/counter poke, c.mk for anti air). didnt capitalize on balrog jump ins (his jumps are floaty and can be countered with ultra on reaction), never performed any real post hayate mix? up (instant air tsurugi, ex oroshi etc) the only post hayate action he took was fadc out of it and try to karakusa. he didnt even try baiting anything from what i could tell (i try to bait the headbutt here and there, doing diagonal IA HK Tsurugi actually helps with the baiting and balrog will go right under you if he head butts)

517

I’d go out on a limb and say a case of tourney nerves are what influenced the way that match played out. He gave that Balrog way more respect than he deserved. He did nothing to make the Balrog want to reversal on wake-up. All he did was back dash and he didn’t punish a single one.

518

I think he was also out of his element. As I recall, his stick face planted when he woke up and was forced to use pad or something. But yeah, pretty uncomfortable play.

519

Ultra spam from Karakusa…

Anyone ate that one before? It is annoying me to no end with all the weaknesses she has especially to her Karakusa. This happened to me 3 times tonight. I was destroying the other player then after my choke grab, I did the s. FP only to be greeted by a ultra before my s. FP came out. WHERE the HELL is her stun from the choke? I know I didn’t mess up the timing on the s. FP. It is so frustrating that anyone can do this, I got hit with Cody’s, Guy’s and Ryu’s Ultra.

Still improving though, love the great advice that you can choke grab after FP Hayate for most characters, makes her much more dangerous unless the spams comes out.

520

The amount of Ultra’s i’ve accidentally baited is funny. I Gimmick it up and S.HP Hayate Cancel to go for another karakusa, it works wonders against those spammers, i don’t use it enough to catch them always though.

Edit: and yes i’ve ate a few ultras in that way:(. I’ve got hit by many many reversals after a Hp xx HP.Hayate that i held a fraction too long.